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Percentage of Muslims and the influence on society. watch

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    (Original post by roots)
    Teaching forgiveness of the person who wrongs you does not nullify punishment. They are seperate things. Noone says that God is merciful therefore Hell doesn't exist. You tell me, does God love everything we do?

    Nothing which has been attributed to Jesus (pbuh) does away with punishment. The punishments remain.
    The difference is that instead of punishing people on Earth through man's judgment, they are offered forgiveness by God himself which they can choose to accept. If they do not, then they are punished. By God. Not man.
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    (Original post by sorafdfs)
    ...
    So if a man came to you and said sharia society would be best and then criticised western society, you would call him a racist

    What if a man came to you and said secular society would be best and then criticised eastern society, would you call him a racist. This is the belief of many people, secular society is the best and it should be applied to eastern society which is not up to our level. Are these people racists.
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    (Original post by Delta Usafa)
    The difference is that instead of punishing people on Earth through man's judgment, they are offered forgiveness by God himself which they can choose to accept. If they do not, then they are punished. By God. Not man.
    An adulterer can only be punished if he or she confesses voluntarily four times. Or if 4 people witness the act, which is near impossible. The person may seek forgiveness in Islam. If they want to confess four times whilst knowing the punishment, then that is their choice.

    The punishment is not man's law, it is God's law.
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    (Original post by roots)
    An adulterer can only be punished if he or she confesses voluntarily four times. Or if 4 people witness the act, which is near impossible. The person may seek forgiveness in Islam. If they want to confess four times whilst knowing the punishment, then that is their choice.

    The punishment is not man's law, it is God's law.
    And what if four people make up a testimony? And when is someone going to confess four times to something? That's a very flawed system and doesn't seem to wield much justice at all, whether it be because of false testimony or because sins go unpunished in general.

    According to Christianity, God's law can only be enforced by God himself because only God knows man's heart and what sins have been committed.

    I like that system more.
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    (Original post by Delta Usafa)
    And what if four people make up a testimony? And when is someone going to confess four times to something? That's a very flawed system and doesn't seem to wield much justice at all, whether it be because of false testimony or because sins go unpunished in general.
    The four people have to be of good character and reputation.

    Exactly, hardly ever.

    A crime must be proven. Islam does not take lightly accusing someone falsely. There must be no doubt.

    You could ask why isn't the punishment carried out if there are two witnesses or three. Even having three witnesses isn't enough.

    Justice can only be done if the crime can be proven. The crime of adultery would need proof. Can you imagine a scenario where four people would witness the act. It would have to be done in public.

    You tell me if you can think up such a system whereby the structure of the conditions makes it near impossible that the punishment will be used and the punishment also acts as such an effective deterrant.
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    (Original post by roots)
    The four people have to be of good character and reputation.

    Exactly, hardly ever.

    A crime must be proven. Islam does not take lightly accusing someone falsely. There must be no doubt.

    You could ask why isn't the punishment carried out if there are two witnesses or three. Even having three witnesses isn't enough.

    Justice can only be done if the crime can be proven. The crime of adultery would need proof. Can you imagine a scenario where four people would witness the act. It would have to be done in public.

    You tell me if you can think up such a system whereby the structure of the conditions makes it near impossible that the punishment will be used and the punishment also acts as such an effective deterrant.
    I can imagine a scenario where four men of "good character" brew up a believable story about how they walked into a room to find a married woman shacking it up with a married man and then reporting it to the authorities, yes.

    There is always the possibility of false accusations being punished. And there is more likely the possibility of people going unpunished, and if that's as widespread as you claim it to be, then Shariah Law is essentially worthless.
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    (Original post by Delta Usafa)
    I can imagine a scenario where four men of "good character" brew up a believable story about how they walked into a room to find a married woman shacking it up with a married man and then reporting it to the authorities, yes.

    There is always the possibility of false accusations being punished. And there is more likely the possibility of people going unpunished, and if that's as widespread as you claim it to be, then Shariah Law is essentially worthless.
    Of course there is always the possibility of something scandalous happening.

    If the woman was with her husband at the time or someone else then the accusers will be punished.

    So now your unhappy that people won't be punished by Sharia Law. A person cannot be punished in this life if it can't be proven. I can't be punished for a crime noone knows about.

    Are you for mercy or punishment? A Muslim prefers mercy over punishment. Punishment in this life is one possibility for the adulterer, if they confess or are caught. If not they may seek forgiveness, mend their ways and God may choose to punish them in the hereafter.
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    (Original post by roots)
    Of course there is always the possibility of something scandalous happening.

    If the woman was with her husband at the time or someone else then the accusers will be punished.

    So now your unhappy that people won't be punished by Sharia Law. A person cannot be punished in this life if it can't be proven. I can't be punished for a crime noone knows about.

    Are you for mercy or punishment? A Muslim prefers mercy over punishment. Punishment in this life is one possibility for the adulterer, if they confess or are caught. If not they may seek forgiveness, mend their ways and God may choose to punish them in the hereafter.
    I'm for mercy, as I've made clear. I'm not unhappy that people won't be punished by Sharia Law, in fact I would prefer that nobody be punished under Sharia Law. The point I'm trying to make is that the number of people who go unpunished makes Sharia Law completely and utterly impractical.

    I'm actually convinced that it's impossible for Sharia Law to be properly and fully implemented with decent results. This is especially confirmed when you ask Muslims about why there are so many injustices that take place or have taken place in nations under this law, and they just say "oh, it wasn't implemented properly, they were doing it wrong!" Well, nobody's ever done it "right," and so I don't see any reason to implement something that can't be done.

    I don't think God would ever place man under a law like this, not just because God doesn't like men passing judgment, but also because God can think of a more practical way to do things. I mean really, to convict someone they have to either have four witnesses or confess? Nobody's going to confess knowing they're going to be executed for doing it.
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    (Original post by Delta Usafa)
    I'm actually convinced that it's impossible for Sharia Law to be properly and fully implemented with decent results.
    The punishment acts as an effective deterrant. Adultery isn't a problem in Muslim countries. While in the West it is prevalent.

    This is especially confirmed when you ask Muslims about why there are so many injustices that take place or have taken place in nations under this law, and they just say "oh, it wasn't implemented properly, they were doing it wrong!" Well, nobody's ever done it "right," and so I don't see any reason to implement something that can't be done.
    The injustice is when someone is killed wrongly due to people not following the laws. When they do this they are acting against the religion, because the rules are clear. When they do that, they are not following sharia.

    By the way, what are you referring to, specifically.

    Nobodies, ever done it right? That is wrong. During the Prophets lifetime 2 people came to him and voluntarily confessed, 1 other person was Jewish and the Prophet instructed them to follow Jewish law. As far as i know, noone else was punished.

    "oh, it wasn't implemented properly, they were doing it wrong!"
    I've shown you when it's implemented properly, that the punishment is rarely used. So your objection that it can't be done is wrong.

    What is so hard. 4 witnesses who witness penetration or 4 confessions by adulterer.

    I don't think God would ever place man under a law like this, not just because God doesn't like men passing judgment, but also because God can think of a more practical way to do things.
    You tell me if you can think up such a system whereby the structure of the conditions makes it near impossible that the punishment will be used and the punishment also acts as such an effective deterrant.

    Men don't pass judgement because they can't, the conditions are laid out for them. Punishment is carried out if it meets the conditions.

    What judgement does a man make? If there are 4 witnesses who clearly see the act, (actual penetration), then they will be punished. What role is there for man to judge. If there are three witnesses or two a person can't be punished, so what room is there for man to judge.
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    (Original post by roots)
    The punishment acts as an effective deterrant. Adultery isn't a problem in Muslim countries. While in the West it is prevalent.



    The injustice is when someone is killed wrongly due to people not following the laws. When they do this they are acting against the religion, because the rules are clear. When they do that, they are not following sharia.

    By the way, what are you referring to, specifically.

    Nobodies, ever done it right? That is wrong. During the Prophets lifetime 2 people came to him and voluntarily confessed, 1 other person was Jewish and the Prophet instructed them to follow Jewish law. As far as i know, noone else was punished.



    I've shown you when it's implemented properly, that the punishment is rarely used. So your objection that it can't be done is wrong.

    What is so hard. 4 witnesses who witness penetration or 4 confessions by adulterer.



    You tell me if you can think up such a system whereby the structure of the conditions makes it near impossible that the punishment will be used and the punishment also acts as such an effective deterrant.

    Men don't pass judgement because they can't, the conditions are laid out for them. Punishment is carried out if it meets the conditions.

    What judgement does a man make? If there are 4 witnesses who clearly see the act, (actual penetration), then they will be punished. What role is there for man to judge. If there are three witnesses or two a person can't be punished, so what room is there for man to judge.
    You do realise there is no proof for what you're saying don't you? The rate of homocide in states of America that have the death penalty is the same or higher as states who do not. You just percieve there to be less. Sharia is a savage system that has seen plenty of women who were raped put to death for admitting to the police they had had sexual contact. May I ask why it is that a man is worth double a woman in Sharia court? If they saw it they saw it right?
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    It's like anything in Islam, Elipsis: biased against the woman. Of course, Muslims will now try and write this off as "God giving men and women different roles".
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    35mm satisfying her prejudice against a minority again? :eek: Never!

    Also, When everyone refers to isolated incidents like 9/11 and generalises massively by saying "muslims" did it. Remember that you are talking about 1+billion human beings. Not a different species.

    I personally detest shariah law. But why should the human beings who follow the religion that is in some cases only loosesly associated with the law be persecuted and made to feel isolated or uneasy? I believe in helping people who suffer injustice. People like 35mm seem to want to make their lives and suffering harder, with blind naive generalisation and ill informed, personally satisfying opinions...
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    lol. Read through the thread "Aeolus" and you'll see that the fundamentalist Muslims you're sticking up for are supporting the very thing you apparently "detest" (i.e. Sharia law).

    Oh, I also didn't write the article, so...
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    (Original post by 35mm_)
    lol. Read through the thread "Aeolus" and you'll see that the fundamentalist Muslims you're sticking up for are supporting the very thing you apparently "detest" (i.e. Sharia law).

    Oh, I also didn't write the article, so...


    But this is an attack against "Muslims" not fundamentalists 35mm. But then i wouldn't expect you to understand that when you lump 1 billion+ people together you experience a massive range of diversity. Which pretty much makes your 'point' whatever it may have been, moot.

    The article also fails to adress the other rather large factors present in 80% + Islamic 'Muslim' Countries. Which in turn makes it extremely innaccurate.
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    (Original post by Aeolus)
    But this is an attack against "Muslims" not fundamentalists 35mm. But then i wouldn't expect you to understand that when you lump 1 billion+ people together you experience a massive range of diversity. Which pretty much makes your 'point' whatever it may have been, moot.
    Ah, usual rhetoric.
    The article also fails to adress the other rather large factors present in 80% + Islamic 'Muslim' Countries. Which in turn makes it extremely innaccurate.
    Okay. Name some other major issues then, which is a result of the majority religion being 80% Islam.
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    (Original post by 35mm_)
    Ah, usual rhetoric.
    :rolleyes:

    Okay. Name some other major issues then, which is a result of the majority religion being 80% Islam.

    Ok, your "article" names Afghanistan as an example of a 100% Islamic country. Are you seriously going to suggest that the main cause of strife there is Islam?
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    (Original post by roots)
    The punishment acts as an effective deterrant. Adultery isn't a problem in Muslim countries. While in the West it is prevalent.
    When it comes to religion, people are supposed to avoid sin because it's the right thing to do, not because they're afraid of the punishment they'll receive.

    The injustice is when someone is killed wrongly due to people not following the laws. When they do this they are acting against the religion, because the rules are clear. When they do that, they are not following sharia.
    And my question persists, why would God want humans to be the judges of something sacred such as this when they can never be 100% sure that they are right? If a system can be taken advantage of, that means it is flawed. God however is perfect. He would not give us a flawed system.

    By the way, what are you referring to, specifically.

    Nobodies, ever done it right? That is wrong. During the Prophets lifetime 2 people came to him and voluntarily confessed, 1 other person was Jewish and the Prophet instructed them to follow Jewish law. As far as i know, noone else was punished.
    So the only time Sharia Law has ever been properly implemented was when Muhammad himself was running the show?

    Brilliant.

    You do realize how bad it makes it sound right? Nobody is ever going to properly implement Sharia Law, and that is one of the biggest reasons it would be absolutely terrible for it to be expanded to the Western world.


    I've shown you when it's implemented properly, that the punishment is rarely used. So your objection that it can't be done is wrong.

    What is so hard. 4 witnesses who witness penetration or 4 confessions by adulterer.
    I've told you what's wrong with that. 1) Four witnesses can lie. 2) Nobody's going to confess four times, that's just plain silly. Why can't a person just confess once?

    Except for your apparent "first time" when Sharia was run by Muhammad himself, it has never been implemented correctly. Since then, when people sin, people are punished.


    You tell me if you can think up such a system whereby the structure of the conditions makes it near impossible that the punishment will be used and the punishment also acts as such an effective deterrant.
    Sounds like a really bad system to me. Makes people not want to do wrong, until they realize that they can usually get away with it.

    Men don't pass judgement because they can't, the conditions are laid out for them. Punishment is carried out if it meets the conditions.
    Unless God literally parts the clouds, steps in, and personally convicts the accused, judgment is still passed by man. It doesn't matter if there are conditions laid out, those conditions can still be abused.

    What judgement does a man make? If there are 4 witnesses who clearly see the act, (actual penetration), then they will be punished. What role is there for man to judge. If there are three witnesses or two a person can't be punished, so what room is there for man to judge.
    Man judges on two accounts here. I'm assuming there is a judge or some higher authority that makes the decision to punish the accused. He makes the judgment that the accusers are telling the truth, regardless of how many accusers there are.

    The second judgment is passed by everyone involved who thinks they are sinless enough to have someone killed for their own sins.
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    (Original post by Aeolus)
    Ok, your "article" names Afghanistan as an example of a 100% Islamic country. Are you seriously going to suggest that the main cause of strife there is Islam?
    It is a major problem, yes. Fundamentalist Islam leads to, as seen in places like Afghanistan, barbaric practices such as the death penalty for non-conformity to sexuality, sex, religion (or lack thereof) and gender. For example, now Afghan men have the right to withold food from wives if they aren't sexually satisfied. This is clearly indirectly influenced by the position of female subordination in Islam which gives precedent to such evil practices.
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    (Original post by 35mm_)
    It is a major problem, yes. Fundamentalist Islam leads to, as seen in places like Afghanistan, barbaric practices such as the death penalty for non-conformity to sexuality, sex, religion (or lack thereof) and gender. For example, now Afghan men have the right to withold food from wives if they aren't sexually satisfied. This is clearly indirectly influenced by the position of female subordination in Islam which gives precedent to such evil practices.

    But this is not the point raised in your article, or didn't you even read it. It said that at above 80% expect ethnic cleansing and genocide. Would you say that the war, strife and conflict in Afghanistan between the various ethnicites is because of Islam?
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    (Original post by Aeolus)
    But this is not the point raised in your article, or didn't you even read it. It said that at above 80% expect ethnic cleansing and genocide. Would you say that the war, strife and conflict in Afghanistan between the various ethnicites is because of Islam?
    Ethnic (or religious) cleansing is very much integral to a faith which is founded upon the tenants of supremacism. It is no co-incidence, therefore, that Muslim girls aren't allowed to marry non-Muslim boys, in order to carry forward the Muslim bloodline.

    When India gained independence from Britain and Pakistan was created as an Islamic state, the Hindus who were inhabitants of parts of India which later became Pakistan were allowed to live in that country as a minority. In 1947 they were 15-20% of Pakistani population but in last 62 years they have been reduced to 2% (or less, can't remember the exact figure) either having been converted or murdered.

    The idea of religious dominance is continually expressed by a large portion of Muslims on this forum, in which they actively call for the Sharia to be implemented in Britain.
 
 
 
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