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    (Original post by BurstingBubbles)
    This.

    The UK clearly didn't want Miliband's more left views, never mind Corbyn.
    Ok, so you get Liz Kendell as PM. She gets in by taking working tax credits from low earning workers. How is that goign to stop 2008 2.0? What was the point?
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    Ok, so you get Liz Kendell as PM. She gets in by taking working tax credits from low earning workers. How is that goign to stop 2008 2.0? What was the point?
    She doesn't support cutting working tax credits so you my friend are talking balls.
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    (Original post by redferry)
    She doesn't support cutting working tax credits so you my friend are talking balls.
    I'm not sure what you mean exactly, but here she is on July 15 supporting the Harman position to accept government cuts to tax credits.
    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...ur-welfare-row
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    I'm not sure what you mean exactly, but here she is on July 15 supporting the Harman position to accept government cuts to tax credits.
    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...ur-welfare-row
    What is wrong with you people that you can't understand that not wanting to be seen as opposing something that has majority public support is not the same as having it as a personal policy you would push through if you were leader?!

    Do you have any understanding of how politics works?
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    (Original post by redferry)
    What is wrong with you people that you can't understand that not wanting to be seen as opposing something that has majority public support is not the same as having it as a personal policy you would push through if you were leader?!

    Do you have any understanding of how politics works?
    The public's knowledge of the facts on welfare differs greatly from the reality as countless polls show. This goes for immigration as well while we're at it, and 'Red' Ed another misconception successfully achieved by the nation's media.

    But it's alright because Labour might win in Watford if they go along with this consensus, but they probably won't because the full fat Tories offer a more wholehearted condemnation of the welfare state.


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    (Original post by Midlander)
    The public's knowledge of the facts on welfare differs greatly from the reality as countless polls show. This goes for immigration as well while we're at it, and 'Red' Ed another misconception successfully achieved by the nation's media.

    But it's alright because Labour might win in Watford if they go along with this consensus, but they probably won't because the full fat Tories offer a more wholehearted condemnation of the welfare state.


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    None of this means that Liz Kendall as leader would have cut working tax credits.

    It's public opinion that wins votes, not reality unfortunateley.

    More useful to win Watford than inner city seats that are firm labour really isn't it.

    I sat in a meeting full of top scientific policymakers yesterday and they all laughed at Jeremy Corbyn. It's just embarrassing.
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    (Original post by redferry)
    What is wrong with you people that you can't understand that not wanting to be seen as opposing something that has majority public support is not the same as having it as a personal policy you would push through if you were leader?!

    Do you have any understanding of how politics works?
    I just don't think that's what Harriet Harman was doing, she was aligning with a policy that even some Tories think is going too far and wasn't supported by a figure as credible as Frank Field. I think the political failure was Harman's, backed up by supine neo-Blairite MPs. The thing about it being good politics because it was supported by the public also doesn't wash - even by your own terms, if you didn't want to hand victory to Corbyn on a plate, it was a bad idea, as it looked awful to most Labour supporters.

    Anyway, regardless of all that, the policy itself will increasingly attract wrath onto the Tories and mobilise the Left.
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    (Original post by redferry)
    None of this means that Liz Kendall as leader would have cut working tax credits.

    It's public opinion that wins votes, not reality unfortunateley.

    More useful to win Watford than inner city seats that are firm labour really isn't it.

    I sat in a meeting full of top scientific policymakers yesterday and they all laughed at Jeremy Corbyn. It's just embarrassing.
    Yes and David Cameron's science credentials are inspirational. Sorry but you are criticising someone for not taking fact-based positions on science but are happy for people not to pay attention to the facts on other issues.

    People in the Home Counties will be alright whatever happens, Waitrose will still be open if Corbyn is elected and Bake Off will still be on telly.


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    (Original post by Midlander)
    Yes and David Cameron's science credentials are inspirational. Sorry but you are criticising someone for not taking fact-based positions on science but are happy for people not to pay attention to the facts on other issues.

    People in the Home Counties will be alright whatever happens, Waitrose will still be open if Corbyn is elected and Bake Off will still be on telly.


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    I think Jezza would come under pressure to impose a Waitrose tax.
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    (Original post by Midlander)
    Yes and David Cameron's science credentials are inspirational. Sorry but you are criticising someone for not taking fact-based positions on science but are happy for people not to pay attention to the facts on other issues.

    People in the Home Counties will be alright whatever happens, Waitrose will still be open if Corbyn is elected and Bake Off will still be on telly.


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    It was more the fact than any hope of any evidence based policy coming through in the next ten years was pretty much non existent and it was funny the meeting was even happening because the election of Jeremy Corbyn had rendered it pretty !much useless.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    I think Jezza would come under pressure to impose a Waitrose tax.
    Waitrose Essential Olive Oil at $130 a barrel, unlikely.


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    (Original post by redferry)
    It was more the fact than any hope of any evidence based policy coming through in the next ten years was pretty much non existent and it was funny the meeting was even happening because the election of Jeremy Corbyn had rendered it pretty !much useless.
    Direct some of these concerns to Homeopathy Hunt then. All the while let's keep allowing people to believe the lies on benefits and immigration. Like I say Watford won't win itself.


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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    I just don't think that's what Harriet Harman was doing, she was aligning with a policy that even some Tories think is going too far and wasn't supported by a figure as credible as Frank Field. I think the political failure was Harman's, backed up by supine neo-Blairite MPs. The thing about it being good politics because it was supported by the public also doesn't wash - even by your own terms, if you didn't want to hand victory to Corbyn on a plate, it was a bad idea, as it looked awful to most Labour supporters.

    Anyway, regardless of all that, the policy itself will increasingly attract wrath onto the Tories and mobilise the Left.
    But none of this means that Liz would cut working tax credits as leader.


    No it won't. Did my first canvassing this week. No one cares. There's three things people want, on the whole 1. Less immigration 2. Less benefits 3. Housing. That pretty much entirely sums up the public's political opinions,or at least the section of the public that need winning over, ie not traditional labour voters.

    Do you see anyone being mobalised beyond people already in the left of the political spectrum? Thought not.
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    (Original post by Midlander)
    Direct some of these concerns to Homeopathy Hunt then. All the while let's keep allowing people to believe the lies on benefits and immigration. Like I say Watford won't win itself.


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    You going to buy up Murdoch's empire and change people's minds then?

    Or you know, actually go canvassing in Tory labour marginals?

    Thought not.

    Also the conservative party won't engage, there's nothing scientists can do about that really. It's not like they haven't been trying for the past 6 years
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    (Original post by redferry)
    But none of this means that Liz would cut working tax credits as leader.


    No it won't. Did my first canvassing this week. No one cares. There's three things people want, on the whole 1. Less immigration 2. Less benefits 3. Housing. That pretty much entirely sums up the public's political opinions,or at least the section of the public that need winning over, ie not traditional labour voters.

    Do you see anyone being mobalised beyond people already in the left of the political spectrum? Thought not.
    I don't know about the second part of your response, maybe they will, maybe they won't. I don't know to what extent Liz Truss would have tracked the Tories but she was agreeing with tax credit cuts before the leadership result. The main point though is that both she and Harriet Harman (and Burnham) made a very bad political move, appearing to side with the Conservatives at that crucial point when they were up against a left wing resurgence. They lost sight of the main objective and acted as if they were still in office. It often doesn't matter what Oppositions do, it's the vibe they give off.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    I don't know about the second part of your response, maybe they will, maybe they won't. I don't know to what extent Liz Truss would have tracked the Tories but she was agreeing with tax credit cuts before the leadership result. The main point though is that both she and Harriet Harman (and Burnham) made a very bad political move, appearing to side with the Conservatives at that crucial point when they were up against a left wing resurgence. They lost sight of the main objective and acted as if they were still in office. It often doesn't matter what Oppositions do, it's the vibe they give off.
    You mean Liz Kendall, Truss is a Tory

    Liz didn't make a single bad political move. She positioned herself to the right of the party, and stuck with her guns throughout. My dad used to hate her but thinks she did a really good job in the face of huge adversity and abandonment by the blairites.

    Again, I repeat, not opposing tax credit cuts while in opposition is not the same thing as bringing that in as leader. Liz always maintained the most important thing was getting in, and clearly the best way to do that is to try and get the majority of the public onside. Labour is seen as soft on welfare - the party for people on benefits - by huge swathes of the country that labour will need to win if they ever want to gain power again. Liz stuck to what she said all along - these are the people you have to try and appeal to by not being seen as soft on benefits. Then when you're in power you can bring in measures to really help the less well off.
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    (Original post by redferry)
    You mean Liz Kendall, Truss is a Tory

    Liz didn't make a single bad political move. She positioned herself to the right of the party, and stuck with her guns throughout. My dad used to hate her but thinks she did a really good job in the face of huge adversity and abandonment by the blairites.

    Again, I repeat, not opposing tax credit cuts while in opposition is not the same thing as bringing that in as leader. Liz always maintained the most important thing was getting in, and clearly the best way to do that is to try and get the majority of the public onside. Labour is seen as soft on welfare - the party for people on benefits - by huge swathes of the country that labour will need to win if they ever want to gain power again. Liz stuck to what she said all along - these are the people you have to try and appeal to by not being seen as soft on benefits. Then when you're in power you can bring in measures to really help the less well off.
    It's a question of timing, tactics and not walking open mouthed into obvious Tory traps as well. If I was a Labour Blairite, I think I would still view Harman's last act as pretty bloody stupid.
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    (Original post by redferry)
    You going to buy up Murdoch's empire and change people's minds then?

    Or you know, actually go canvassing in Tory labour marginals?

    Thought not.

    Also the conservative party won't engage, there's nothing scientists can do about that really. It's not like they haven't been trying for the past 6 years
    There are no Tory/Labour marginals in Scotland. Lots of SNP seats though, including mine, for whom we have New Labour and Better Together to thank.




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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    It's a question of timing, tactics and not walking open mouthed into obvious Tory traps as well. If I was a Labour Blairite, I think I would still view Harman's last act as pretty bloody stupid.
    It's hardly the most stupid thing that's happened in the Labour Party of late let's be honest here.

    The party's gone mad.
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    (Original post by Midlander)
    There are no Tory/Labour marginals in Scotland. Lots of SNP seats though, including mine, for whom we have New Labour and Better Together to thank.




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    There is a thing called travel? Just a thought.

    I campaigned in marginals all over the country in the run up to the election, did very little in my own seat.
 
 
 
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