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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    I do (and did anyway). As I said, it is irrelevant.

    The consequences of your attitude go as follows:

    It is forbidden to criticise Islam so as not to offend its adherents.

    Its adherents continue to follow the nasty parts of their ideology/religion/superstition/protected space.

    Later adherents do not know that the nasty parts are unacceptable to educated westerners.

    They continue to expect to follow them when they come to the west.
    They do follow them.

    The west continues to be nice to them.

    The nasty bits become accepted as good behaviour.

    The west regresses to the Middle Ages.



    Put simple, to fail to criticise anything that is unacceptable about an ideology or any way of life is to accept it.
    How is it irrelevant? Quite obviously hating on Islam, which is a religion to which family values, history and tradition originate from, is entirely different to hating fascism.

    Explain to me why criticising everything someone knows to be true, ie - some Muslim's religion and therefore all of the above, is equal to criticising fascism.
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    Like most people, I don't automatically assume anyone is lying unless I am sparked into doing so by evidence.
    Yet you assumed I was, strange.
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    (Original post by swiss_cheese)
    How is it irrelevant? Quite obviously hating on Islam, which is a religion to which family values, history and tradition originate from, is entirely different to hating fascism.

    Explain to me why criticising everything someone knows to be true, ie - some Muslim's religion and therefore all of the above, is equal to criticising fascism.
    Fascism is an unpleasant ideology, and many Nazis lived their lives and derived their values from it by it. Islam is an unpleasant ideology and many Moslems live their lives by it. There is no difference at all in the principles involved in discussing them.
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    (Original post by dingleberry jam)
    Yet you assumed I was, strange.
    Did I assume you were lying, or did I see that what you claimed was not in accordance with the evidence you provided?
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    Did I assume you were lying, or did I see that what you claimed was not in accordance with the evidence you provided?
    I don't know Good bloke but either way you've backed yourself into a corner with your inconsistencies. Again, if it isn't racism what is it?
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    (Original post by dingleberry jam)
    I don't know Good bloke but either way you've backed yourself into a corner with your inconsistencies. Again, if it isn't racism what is it?
    If what, precisely, is racism? You do realise that many Moslems are of European extraction, don't you?
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    If what, precisely, is racism? You do realise that many Moslems are of European extraction, don't you?
    Yes, so what is it then?
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    (Original post by dingleberry jam)
    Yes, so what is it then?
    This is tedious. Is what, precisely, racist?
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    (Original post by BaconandSauce)
    Is this the 'Muslim morality' we hear so much about

    But you should be ashamed of yourself for saying such a thing.
    As a Muslim myself, I definitely do not consider this as something small- the person who said that needs help. We can't ignore crimes like this but they have more to do with a person's messed up mentality than with religion, not that the post originally bashed Islam or anything, it merely reported what happened, and it ashames me that some "Muslims" need to get so defensive about these things because this stuff isn't what our religion orders us to do, and if it happens we need to stop trying to bury it (directed at the person saying this is sth small)
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    (Original post by swiss_cheese)
    which is a religion to which family values, history and tradition originate from
    You do know these things exist outside of Muslim communities don't you

    But I know some people make stupid claims for what Islam has 'created' but this is one of the best yet
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    Fascism is an unpleasant ideology, and many Nazis lived their lives and derived their values from it by it. Islam is an unpleasant ideology and many Moslems live their lives by it. There is no difference at all in the principles involved in discussing them.
    This is simply not true, do fascists have holy months, has fascism existed in one form for 1500 years, does fascism have an ancient scripture believed to be the word of God, does fascism have festivals and traditions, does fascism unite 1.5 billion people worldwide, does fascism have its own culture / art / architecture, does fascism have an ancient history of glorious and prosperous empires, does fascism guide people on pilgrimages to places, does fascism offer enlightenment about God and the afterlife, does fascism give you laws to follow - I could go on forever. There are a myriad of differences between an ideology like fascism and Islam.

    No, it doesn't. Fascism is a general far-right ideology. Islam is the very bedrock to 1.5 billion peoples' lives, therefore hating Islam is not as one-dimensional as hating on an ideology.

    How many times are you going to keep denying this?
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    (Original post by BaconandSauce)
    You do know these things exist outside of Muslim communities don't you

    But I know some people make stupid claims for what Islam has 'created' but this is one of the best yet
    Dumb comment, many of these values are as a direct result of Islam.

    Do you think random families celebrate ramadam for the fun of it?
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    Fascism is an unpleasant ideology, and many Nazis lived their lives and derived their values from it by it. Islam is an unpleasant ideology and many Moslems live their lives by it. There is no difference at all in the principles involved in discussing them.
    I agree entirely

    Islam is not only a personal religion, but also a socio-political theory, A very unpleasant one, in many of its parts.Similar, in some ways, to Fascism ,or Communism

    The fact that most Muslims don't put into practice the nastiest parts of Islam, does not mean a lot : just like e.g. not all Communists were organising purges, or guarding Gulags, but many were simply honest family men (in fact many of them animated by high ideals) does not mean that we should not hold Communism responsible for those episodes
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    (Original post by swiss_cheese)
    Dumb comment, many of these values are as a direct result of Islam.

    Do you think random families celebrate ramadam for the fun of it?
    no they are not


    family values, history and tradition

    you just keep getting better
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    (Original post by Zvha)
    As a Muslim myself, I definitely do not consider this as something small- the person who said that needs help. We can't ignore crimes like this but they have more to do with a person's messed up mentality than with religion, not that the post originally bashed Islam or anything, it merely reported what happened, and it ashames me that some "Muslims" need to get so defensive about these things because this stuff isn't what our religion orders us to do, and if it happens we need to stop trying to bury it (directed at the person saying this is sth small)
    Why make this comment to me and not the Muslim who made the initial comment?
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    (Original post by Trapz99)
    And what is wrong with reminding people of the threat that Islamic terrorism poses to Western society? And it's bigoted to tell people the name of an attacker?
    "Islamic terrorism" isn't a thing because terrorism has no religion; terrorists are merely driven by their own ****ed up beliefs and not what Islam teaches them, because that is not what Islam teaches anyone.
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    (Original post by BaconandSauce)
    Why make this comment to me and not the Muslim who made the initial comment?
    idk. im new to this site. give me a break
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    ahhhhhh muslims,you either love them or you hate them!
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    I do (and did anyway). As I said, it is irrelevant.

    The consequences of your attitude go as follows:

    It is forbidden to criticise Islam so as not to offend its adherents.

    Its adherents continue to follow the nasty parts of their ideology/religion/superstition/protected space.

    Later adherents do not know that the nasty parts are unacceptable to educated westerners.

    They continue to expect to follow them when they come to the west.
    They do follow them.

    The west continues to be nice to them.

    The nasty bits become accepted as good behaviour.

    The west regresses to the Middle Ages.



    Put simple, to fail to criticise anything that is unacceptable about an ideology or any way of life is to accept it.
    Again, I agree entirely

    while discriminating individual Muslims because of their religion is wrong, we should have absolutely no qualms in criticising Islam and in stressing the aspects of it that we find completely unacceptable, and incompatible with our secular democracies

    we owe it to Muslims not to entertain any ambiguities

    as to Islam's glorious history this counts for zilch : apart that I fail to see in what it was different from all other ancient Empires ( all of them based on invasions and conquests), we are living in the 21st century, not in some medieval "golden Age" (whether imaginary or real)

    best
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    (Original post by swiss_cheese)
    This is simply not true, do fascists have holy months, has fascism existed in one form for 1500 years, does fascism have an ancient scripture believed to be the word of God, does fascism have festivals and traditions, does fascism unite 1.5 billion people worldwide, does fascism have its own culture / art / architecture, does fascism have an ancient history of glorious and prosperous empires, does fascism guide people on pilgrimages to places, does fascism offer enlightenment about God and the afterlife, does fascism give you laws to follow - I could go on forever. There are a myriad of differences between an ideology like fascism and Islam.

    How does any of that exempt Islam for criticism and being disliked?

    No, it doesn't. Fascism is a general far-right ideology. Islam is the very bedrock to 1.5 billion peoples' lives, therefore hating Islam is not as one-dimensional as hating on an ideology. One-dimensional? Who said anything is one dimensional? Fascism has benefits, but that doesn't mean it is to be liked.

    How many times are you going to keep denying this?
    As many times as you state it. It is foolish and unreasonable to exempt Islam from dislike and criticism.

    See my bold comments above.
 
 
 
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