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    (Original post by vienna95)
    so actively head hunting minorities?

    im not saying it isnt a problem and that it would be better for the Conservative party, like all parties to be better represented, but engineering in this way goes against what alot of the classic liberals and old Whigs stood for, liberty.
    Engineering is a harsh word. It sounds as if things are being changed that aren't supposed to be. There are supposed to be minority groups in all parties and yes they should be head-hunted.
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    (Original post by pkonline)
    This is the very reason why the very traditional Tories are hampering the Tory party. What about newer conservative values such as 'choice', 'enterprise' etc...

    A party cannot be regarded highly if it main belief is we don't liek change, anti this and that...
    they arent newer conservative values, they are libertarian economic values that the conservative party embraces such was the minimum state under thatcher.. the conservative party is more than conservatism and this is not something new.
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    (Original post by pkonline)
    Engineering is a harsh word. It sounds as if things are being changed that aren't supposed to be. There are supposed to be minority groups in all parties and yes they should be head-hunted.
    engineering is engineering. that is what is happening. deliberate interference into the political system. there isnt supposed to be anything but openly elected candidates. the political system in this country functions on the basis that those elected to represent their party or constituents do so because they have been elected democratically from among the constituency and by their party.

    F.A.Hayek - "At a time when most movements that are thought to be progressive advocate further encroachments on individual liberty,those who cherish freedom are likely to expend their energies in opposition..."
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    Can you not see that noone wants to engineer society. As you recogines, there needs to be open selection. We all agree upon that. So why does the Tory party have so few minorities if it is a truly open society - there must be something wrong here!

    Conservatism cannot be defined on the basis of Thatcher!

    Why would any minorities want to join a grey, dying, wheezing old party like the Tories?
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    (Original post by Unregistered)
    Why would any minorities want to join a grey, dying, wheezing old party like the Tories?
    LOL but surely there are some young, modern Tories who would be taking this point much more seriously than many on this board have.
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    (Original post by pkonline)
    Can you not see that noone wants to engineer society. As you recogines, there needs to be open selection. We all agree upon that. So why does the Tory party have so few minorities if it is a truly open society - there must be something wrong here!
    i think we are going around in circles. because if you look at the selection of the Tory party system it is entirely open. it even engineers the selection towards women. the fact is the make up of the Tory party reflects in general the number of people standing for Tory MP. the something wrong, is that not enough of minority groups stand for Tory MP. if you dont like that then you have to resort to engineering candidacies. there is nothing more the party can do without falling down that slippery slope. i think they are also wrong in believing that the Tory part does not appreciate or encourage minorities to join. their policy, like the labour parties is openly pro-minority. as we have seen in america, it is the education of the public that needs to to be addressed. as Britons taking part in British democracy, they should be interested in what the party can do for them as Britons rather than concerned about differences in colour and race, something they and the liberal left are supposedly trying to eradicate.

    Conservatism cannot be defined on the basis of Thatcher!
    when did i say it was?
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    (Original post by pkonline)
    LOL but surely there are some young, modern Tories who would be taking this point much more seriously than many on this board have.
    how much more seriously do you want? its is 20 pages long and the discussion continues. i would hasten to add that continual tory-bashing hardly induces conservative voters to come forward and take the discussion seriously...
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    (Original post by vienna95)
    the fact is the make up of the Tory party reflects in general the number of people standing for Tory MP. the something wrong, is that not enough of minority groups stand for Tory MP. if you dont like that then you have to resort to engineering candidacies. there is nothing more the party can do without falling down that slippery slope. i think they are also wrong in believing that the Tory part does not appreciate or encourage minorities to join. their policy, like the labour parties is openly pro-minority. as we have seen in america, it is the education of the public that needs to to be addressed. as Britons taking part in British democracy, they should be interested in what the party can do for them as Britons rather than concerned about differences in colour and race, something they and the liberal left are supposedly trying to eradicate.
    In my experience, a lot of Asians are conservative. Why then aren't there any Tory MPs? Are you saying non-whites and women don't vote Tory? If so why don't they? Also Why didn't they put up an asian candidate in a safe seat liek they did on other occasions like with Portillo?

    You're right with education etc... but every party in the UK is in the same boat but they are more representative.
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    (Original post by vienna95)
    i would hasten to add that continual tory-bashing hardly induces conservative voters to come forward and take the discussion seriously...
    A recent poll on this board showed that there were lots of Tories. In politics you have to stand up and speak you mind. Where are these Tories and why don't they stick up for you side. I feel sorry for you vienna95 'cos you're the only one who will give a serious defense. It may feel like Tory bashing but its mainly cos noone is answering back.
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    (Original post by pkonline)
    In my experience, a lot of Asians are conservative. Why then aren't there any Tory MPs? Are you saying non-whites and women don't vote Tory? If so why don't they? Also Why didn't they put up an asian candidate in a safe seat liek they did on other occasions like with Portillo?

    You're right with education etc... but every party in the UK is in the same boat but they are more representative.
    they are conservative in values or they vote conservative? i have no idea why they dont stand for MP. in my experience of figures in america, non-whites and women prefer to vote democrat. portillo is a leading figure in the party. thats why he gets a safe seat. if he was black or asian or a woman it would be the same.

    more representative because perhaps minorities agree with their policies. women certainly are more liberal in their attitudes. i appreciate that the conservative party must encourage minority groups to stand, but the party is representative of its voters and candidate procedure.
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    (Original post by pkonline)
    A recent poll on this board showed that there were lots of Tories. In politics you have to stand up and speak you mind. Where are these Tories and why don't they stick up for you side. I feel sorry for you vienna95 'cos you're the only one who will give a serious defense. It may feel like Tory bashing but its mainly cos noone is answering back.
    well, perhaps they dont want to be seen in my company. on this point it is more than a case of tory vs liberal. true classical liberals would surely side with the conservative on this point.
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    (Original post by vienna95)
    they are conservative in values or they vote conservative?
    Both - have the values and vote Tory.

    i have no idea why they dont stand for MP.
    That's the problem - a lot of politicians just don't know, don't see a problem and so don't do anything about it.
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    (Original post by pkonline)
    Both - have the values and vote Tory.


    That's the problem - a lot of politicians just don't know, don't see a problem and so don't do anything about it.
    correction: they dont know why, wonder why and make efforts to change party policy to encourage minorities. at the end of the day, the only woman prime minister came from the tory party. if minorities stand and they are not elected by the public or by the members of the tory public then what can the party do? if the public believe a white male can serve them better than that is known as democracy.
    anything else is just plain wrong and is the basic point on which my principles are based.
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    (Original post by vienna95)
    correction: they dont know why, wonder why and make efforts to change party policy to encourage minorities.
    I didn't say they should change policy. Do be open and welcoming to minorities shouldn't need any policy change. As I said before, a lot of minorities have Tory values. It needs a change in image and attitude. For example your attitude isn't gonna attract anyone.

    at the end of the day, the only woman prime minister came from the tory party. if minorities stand and they are not elected by the public or by the members of the tory public then what can the party do? if the public believe a white male can serve them better than that is known as democracy.
    anything else is just plain wrong and is the basic point on which my principles are based.
    Thats correct. But I have said nothing about elections. I'm talking about being selected to stand to be a Tory MP.
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    (Original post by pkonline)
    I didn't say they should change policy. Do be open and welcoming to minorities shouldn't need any policy change. As I said before, a lot of minorities have Tory values. It needs a change in image and attitude. For example your attitude isn't gonna attract anyone.
    it is the presentation that has changed. all-women shortlists are a policy change in my eyes.

    Thats correct. But I have said nothing about elections. I'm talking about being selected to stand to be a Tory MP.
    the point of democracy is valid on either level.
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    I reckon Boris Johnson should be the next Tory leader. I would vote him for him.
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    http://www.geocities.com/borisjohnsonfanclub/

    (Original post by thiefunseen)
    I reckon Boris Johnson should be the next Tory leader. I would vote him for him.
    He's amusing but such a buffoon!
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    (Original post by vienna95)
    it is the presentation that has changed. all-women shortlists are a policy change in my eyes.
    And what policy would that be? Only white, middle-class, public schooled can only stand as Tory candidates? What is the alternative to opening up the Tory party then if, as all parties have done, you cannot parachute people into easy seats.

    the point of democracy is valid on either level.
    Is the selection 'policy' democratic cos if it was surely it would be representative!
 
 
 
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