Is Scottish independence a 'good or bad' thing? Watch

Poll: Should Scotland be an independent country?
YES (299)
32.12%
NO (632)
67.88%
This discussion is closed.
Quady
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#3981
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#3981
(Original post by Choo.choo)
Thanks tartanarmy. Why are people on here so unable to see that the SNP are the only party who care about the people of Scotland? Nobody has yet argued that point.
How about because its a pointless argument, its entirely subjective.

If I were to suggest:
'Representatives of constituents care about their constituents and constituents decide to vote for people who most care about them'

Then somehow you'd disagree, or disagree with voters who decide that isn't someone from the SNP

Taking your suggestion to its illogical extension, the EDL are the only party who care about the people of England.
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Choo.choo
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#3982
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#3982
It's not about the SNP or the great desire for nationalism, its about Scots being sick to the teeth of being bled dry and having unwanted governments stripping the wealth, respect and pride out of our country for their own ends. Its as simple as this. I would rather put my faith in a Scottish government, governing my country
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Choo.choo
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#3983
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#3983
(Original post by Quady)
Of course it can - why-ever wouldn't it? Pretty much anything can survive as an independent nation.

Isn't that why they're called 'better together' not 'Independent Scotland is DOOMED!'?

The question is would life be better. So far 60-70% of Scots say think no...
How would life not be better?
I have just said why I think so in my previous post.
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MatureStudent36
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#3984
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#3984
(Original post by Choo.choo)
I think a televised debate would swing it for a lot of people.
Cameron knows he would lose the debate, hence he is not agreeing to one with Alex Salmond.
Salmond would turn any debate into 'he's not from round here.' You've also forgotten that Salmond wanted a Scottish referendum by the people of Scotland, for the people of Scotland. He's got that.involving Cameron in a debate isn't what Salmond wanted.
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Choo.choo
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#3985
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#3985
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
Salmond would turn any debate into 'he's not from round here.' You've also forgotten that Salmond wanted a Scottish referendum by the people of Scotland, for the people of Scotland. He's got that.involving Cameron in a debate isn't what Salmond wanted.
Salmond would win a televised debate hands down.
Why do you think Cameron is refusing to give him one?
Not sure about your last sentence.
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MatureStudent36
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#3986
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#3986
(Original post by Choo.choo)
It's not about the SNP or the great desire for nationalism, its about Scots being sick to the teeth of being bled dry and having unwanted governments stripping the wealth, respect and pride out of our country for their own ends. Its as simple as this. I would rather put my faith in a Scottish government, governing my country
how are we bled dry?

Hiw have we not got a government we didn't vote for? The SNP returned 6 MPs out of 59 one the general election.
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Choo.choo
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#3987
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#3987
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
how are we bled dry?

Hiw have we not got a government we didn't vote for? The SNP returned 6 MPs out of 59 one the general election.
Scotland and Tory do not match ( I will explain why tomorrow; not tonight).
It does not matter about the results of the election; SNP are running the Scottish Government and I can see why. They listen to the people of Scotland. We have devolved powers, meaning we cannot do everything the Scottish people want, which is where the power of independence lies.
How is the UK treasury so heavily in debt, if we are not bled dry?
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Quady
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#3988
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#3988
(Original post by Choo.choo)
How would life not be better?
I have just said why I think so in my previous post.
Because the cost of transition would drag until 2030 and creating a formal tax jurisdiction separation with what would be our largest trading partner will reduce exports/imports across the border.

As you said earlier, I'm economically selfish right?
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MatureStudent36
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#3989
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#3989
(Original post by winchester69)
In Scotland there is only 54MPs, only one of these is part of the conservative party, yet we have a conservative government. This just means that any time the Scottish MPs want to do something, they can be completely outvoted. For example, the introduction of the bedroom tax was voted against by 95% of Scottish MPs, but it went ahead anyway? Every election, the Scots vote for Labour or SNP candidates, but we managed to land ourselves a conservative government, which is completely unfair. We shouldn't be forced into a position with a government we didn't vote for in almost complete control of our country just because we have a smaller population. The only way I can currently see to resolve this matter is for Scotland to become an independent country. However, Alex Salmond is a knob, and I would hate to have him as president, but if Scotland does become independent an election will be held for a new president. After all this **** about the referendum, I doubt we'll vote for Salmond.
That's my view on the political side of it, but I'm not sure if Scotland's economy will stand firm. We will get the North Sea oil, which would create a large income for Scotland, and even after the oil has been used, we could sell on the land. However, Scotland's spending is very high, mostly because of the free tuition, free healthcare, and Alex Salmond blowing millions on silly projects that will never work and stupid ****ing road signs. Recently, near where I live, a new ferry terminal was built. It cost 7 million pounds, and noone bothered to check whether the ferry fitted the terminal. So now, we have a huge fancy ****ing car park and no ferry.
Voila.
scots don't vote for the SNP on elections. The SNP came in third place in the general election.


Your argument however is flawed. Shetland has voted for Lib Dems since 1950. They have a parliament in Holyrood that they didn't vote for. They've only recently with the coalition been represented in Westminster in government.

You're claim of North Sea oil is pure fantasy. Even the SNPs own figures show that they've overplayed the benfits of oil.
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MatureStudent36
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#3990
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#3990
(Original post by meenu89)
Or it could even be that they, like the Union?
Ever wonders why somebody with a minority viewpoint and is trying to win somebody over to you're idea and their result is to call the majority stupid.
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1tartanarmy
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#3991
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#3991
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
scots don't vote for the SNP on elections. The SNP received came in third place in the general election.


Your argument however is flawed. Shetland has voted for Lib Dems since 1950. They have a parliament in Holyrood that they didn't vote for. They've only recently with the coalition been represented in Westminster in government.

You're claim of North Sea oil is pure fantasy. Even the SNPs own figures show that they've overplayed the benfits of oil.
Aha... but... the difference is that under proportional representation every vote counts towards a seat. So they helped the lib dems get more seats. Thats not what scots get with westminster.
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1tartanarmy
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#3992
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#3992
(Original post by Quady)
Because the cost of transition would drag until 2030 and creating a formal tax jurisdiction separation with what would be our largest trading partner will reduce exports/imports across the border.

As you said earlier, I'm economically selfish right?
2030? Thats the first I heard that one. Someone must be smart to work that out. Again lies lies lies
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1tartanarmy
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#3993
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#3993
(Original post by Choo.choo)
Thanks tartanarmy. Why are people on here so unable to see that the SNP are the only party who care about the people of Scotland? Nobody has yet argued that point.

The one thing I can take from this... even if heaven forbid...theres a no vote is that I informed myself and made a choice. The same can't me said with some...not all no voters.

Anyways, another year of torie policy to go yet. Enough time for people to open their eyes.
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Choo.choo
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#3994
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#3994
(Original post by 1tartanarmy)
The one thing I can take from this... even if heaven forbid...theres a no vote is that I informed myself and made a choice. The same can't me said with some...not all no voters.

Anyways, another year of torie policy to go yet. Enough time for people to open their eyes.
Can I safely presume that you are in the 'Yes' camp then?
And you will be voting to separate from the Union?
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Quady
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#3995
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#3995
(Original post by 1tartanarmy)
2030? Thats the first I heard that one. Someone must be smart to work that out. Again lies lies lies
OK, how long after 2014 will it take to agree a transition of existing assets/liabilities? 18 months?

How long will it take to build Scotland's own welfare state/tax system?

Will they be paid for within the period to deliver or will financing be used?
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Choo.choo
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#3996
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#3996
(Original post by Quady)
OK, how long after 2014 will it take to agree a transition of existing assets/liabilities? 18 months?

How long will it take to build Scotland's own welfare state/tax system?

Will they be paid for within the period to deliver or will financing be used?
Definitely not 16 years, or 14 if you count from March 2016, when independence will be declared by Salmond.
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Quady
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#3997
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#3997
(Original post by Choo.choo)
Definitely not 16 years, or 14 if you count from March 2016, when independence will be declared by Salmond.
So how long?

Take welfare, how long will it take an independent Scotland to
Think up which groups will get benefits (eg unemployed, disabled, carers)
Think up the conditionality rules (eg if you are unemployed but have £50,000 in cash savings you don't get anything)
Get agreement from the people of Scotland (would that be 2016?)
Start building the systems, test them out and launch?

As I asked before, would be money come in year or be financed?
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Maths Tutor
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#3998
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#3998
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
No I'm not. There's was only a 50% turnout for that election. The election was a sample representing the population, as are opinion polls. If 50% of the population voted for the SNP and they only have 30% support, that means that means that there's a significant number if SNP supporters who will vote no. If you're attempting to promote a mass support from SNP supporters voting yes, then that means that even more SNP voters will vote no.

I know many people who voted SNP just to get free tuition fees. They'll be voting no next September.

50% SNP support on a 50% turnout amounts to 25% of the electorate.

30% YES support on a 80% turnout amounts to 24% of the electorate.



24% of the YES electorate as a % of the 25% SNP electorate amounts to 96%.



So either 96% of those who voted for the SNP will vote YES

OR

a significant % of those who didn't vote for the SNP will vote YES.


The second case seems more likely.

A % of the SNP vote came from NO voters.

A % of the non SNP vote came from YES voters.


Comparing the 25% SNP and 24% YES figures, the SNP NO and non-SNP YES seem to cancel each other out.





The latest Panelbase poll shows:

YES 35%

NO 43%

Undecided 20%


11 months before the referendum, a swing of less than 5% is needed for a YES vote.


http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-gnats-chuff/


To answer the main question again,

YES, Scottish independence will be a 'good' thing for the vast majority of the people of Scotland.

The minority that will be worse off will include the likes of Alistair Darling, Anas Sarwar and other Labour, Liberal Democrat and Tory Westminster MPs.

Also worse off will be the various 'Lords' from Scotland who only have to turn up at the House of Lords to claim expenses of £300 PER DAY.
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MatureStudent36
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#3999
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#3999
(Original post by Choo.choo)
Funny thing is, the 'Better Together' camp have admitted that Scotland could survive as an independent nation.
Both David Cameron and Alistair Darling have said this is so.
Agreed. But the point being whether we would we'd be better or worse off. And that's not even discounting the issue that's at of us can quite happily identify with being Scottish and British.
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MatureStudent36
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#4000
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#4000
(Original post by Maths Tutor)
50% SNP support on a 50% turnout amounts to 25% of the electorate.

30% YES support on a 80% turnout amounts to 24% of the electorate.



24% of the YES electorate as a % of the 25% SNP electorate amounts to 96%.



So either 96% of those who voted for the SNP will vote YES

OR

a significant % of those who didn't vote for the SNP will vote YES.


The second case seems more likely.

A % of the SNP vote came from NO voters.

A % of the non SNP vote came from YES voters.


Comparing the 25% SNP and 24% YES figures, the SNP NO and non-SNP YES seem to cancel each other out.





The latest Panelbase poll shows:

YES 35%

NO 43%

Undecided 20%


11 months before the referendum, a swing of less than 5% is needed for a YES vote.


http://wingsoverscotland.com/the-gnats-chuff/


To answer the main question again,

YES, Scottish independence will be a 'good' thing for the vast majority of the people of Scotland.

The minority that will be worse off will include the likes of Alistair Darling, Anas Sarwar and other Labour, Liberal Democrat and Tory Westminster MPs.

Also worse off will be the various 'Lords' from Scotland who only have to turn up at the House of Lords to claim expenses of £300 PER DAY.
Another panelbase poll.

Shall we have a look at what's going on with panelbase.

http://www.heraldscotland.com/mobile...lls.1378556935
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