Hey there! Sign in to join this conversationNew here? Join for free
    • Political Ambassador
    Online

    21
    ReputationRep:
    Political Ambassador
    (Original post by That Bearded Man)
    That's not the BMAs doing. The BMA has relented on a big concession and backed this deal. Its up to the docs though on whether they want to accept. I wouldn't blame people if they calculate this makes them worse off so decide to leave. If this makes you £10k worse off you're saying they should just suck it up?

    You could import SOME junior docs, but they won't be trained to the same level, patients won't like them as much, there may be language barriers, I imagine safety risks will increase and certainly it would take time to implement (and I'd bet they'd end up actually costing more too)

    I don't see why leaving the EU would make a difference, if anything there's more NON-EU than EU (not british ) docs.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    I was there using the BMA to refer to the doctors themselves rather than the BMA as an organisation, probably should have made that clear. And you suggest as cost of £10k, that seems to be about as bad plucking figures out of the air as the last TSR budget or almost everything to do with the EU referendum. Finally, don't ask me why leaving the EU means no more doctors to import, ask the Remainians that seem to suggest that there are no doctors outside the EU that would come here if they could.
    • Political Ambassador
    Online

    21
    ReputationRep:
    Political Ambassador
    https://www.facebook.com/con4lib/vid...5005270599813/
    Offline

    22
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    I was there using the BMA to refer to the doctors themselves rather than the BMA as an organisation, probably should have made that clear. And you suggest as cost of £10k, that seems to be about as bad plucking figures out of the air as the last TSR budget or almost everything to do with the EU referendum. Finally, don't ask me why leaving the EU means no more doctors to import, ask the Remainians that seem to suggest that there are no doctors outside the EU that would come here if they could.
    I totally disagree with that last point, if the UK was to import I'd expect most to come from outside the EU anyway.

    I did pluck that 10k figure, but that's for two main reasons. One is that the vague details haven't outlined exactly what areas lose out, from the details I see no clear answer, but the contract has been agreed to be cost neutral, so some people will lose out. It was going to be the Out-of-Hours but they've got some MARGINAL protections. Hunt however also said that the majority of docs would be better off, so by economic logic if overall pay stays the same and the majority earn more, then that minority will be shafted.
    • Political Ambassador
    Online

    21
    ReputationRep:
    Political Ambassador
    (Original post by That Bearded Man)
    I totally disagree with that last point, if the UK was to import I'd expect most to come from outside the EU anyway.

    I did pluck that 10k figure, but that's for two main reasons. One is that the vague details haven't outlined exactly what areas lose out, from the details I see no clear answer, but the contract has been agreed to be cost neutral, so some people will lose out. It was going to be the Out-of-Hours but they've got some MARGINAL protections. Hunt however also said that the majority of docs would be better off, so by economic logic if overall pay stays the same and the majority earn more, then that minority will be shafted.
    Not necessarily. Suppose we have 1000 people 501 constitutes the majority, if each is say just £10 better off then the 499 minority are only £10.04 worse off if it is spread evenly. It's a matter of balances, i.e. the size of the majority, I believe in the past it has been claimed to be 99%, and then actually how much better off that majority is, I should think very little
    Offline

    22
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Not necessarily. Suppose we have 1000 people 501 constitutes the majority, if each is say just £10 better off then the 499 minority are only £10.04 worse off if it is spread evenly. It's a matter of balances, i.e. the size of the majority, I believe in the past it has been claimed to be 99%, and then actually how much better off that majority is, I should think very little
    True, although I am very sceptical, and if it is 90% + and it will likely be >£10 each then it will be very significant. A+E staffing remains a big unknown. The nastiness there is that the base pay rate realistically was to make the deal "look" appetising. If the goal is to have a cost neutral contract why would you reward people who work normal hours at the expense of those who work out of hours? Why? It should be the opposite, this is why I'm so sceptical, he's very clearly saying one thing and doing another.

    Alot of the important details are vague, but the equal pay per day makes me think its the BMA who caved, not Hunt.
    Offline

    15
    ReputationRep:
    What a pathetic fluffy queens speech with next to no content aimed at winning over those on the centre and centre left over for the referendum.
    It's a government falling apart. Unfortunately the opposition fell apart a long time ago with no sign of recovery.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Offline

    22
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Not necessarily. Suppose we have 1000 people 501 constitutes the majority, if each is say just £10 better off then the 499 minority are only £10.04 worse off if it is spread evenly. It's a matter of balances, i.e. the size of the majority, I believe in the past it has been claimed to be 99%, and then actually how much better off that majority is, I should think very little
    I think I've got it actually, the nodal pay system rewards a higher rank, not more advanced in training, essentially this contract will be a massive pay cut to anyone who is in the middle of training. Instead of different pays as you advance you have a "training" pay and then a completed pay.

    So, instead of, say

    CT1 20k
    CT2 22k
    CT3 25k
    CT4 27.5k
    Reg 30k

    It will be CT1-4 20k. Reg 30k. I bet THAT is where they make the saving.
    • Political Ambassador
    Online

    21
    ReputationRep:
    Political Ambassador
    (Original post by Bornblue)
    What a pathetic fluffy queens speech with next to no content aimed at winning over those on the centre and centre left over for the referendum.
    It's a government falling apart. Unfortunately the opposition fell apart a long time ago with no sign of recovery.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    I think it's less a case of not trying to win people over, I think it's less trying to piss people off, with only 36 days left they hardly need to ruin their agenda for the other 289 days, even if they aren't sitting for a massive chunk of that.
    • Political Ambassador
    Online

    21
    ReputationRep:
    Political Ambassador
    (Original post by That Bearded Man)
    I think I've got it actually, the nodal pay system rewards a higher rank, not more advanced in training, essentially this contract will be a massive pay cut to anyone who is in the middle of training. Instead of different pays as you advance you have a "training" pay and then a completed pay.

    So, instead of, say

    CT1 20k
    CT2 22k
    CT3 25k
    CT4 27.5k
    Reg 30k

    It will be CT1-4 20k. Reg 30k. I bet THAT is where they make the saving.
    Which would lead to what, being worse off for 3 years and then better off for 30
    Offline

    22
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Which would lead to what, being worse off for 3 years and then better off for 30
    My guess will be that it just takes longer to progress in pay, so depending on the specialty and the number of years in training (GP, say, is 9 years) so between 3-9 years your pay will stay the same. I wonder if pay once you complete the training will remain the same as previous contract.

    It's a fairly clever way to cut, but technically incorrect because you do actually progress at each level. It'll depend on the specialty then on whether they're protected or not.
    Offline

    18
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Bornblue)
    What a pathetic fluffy queens speech with next to no content aimed at winning over those on the centre and centre left over for the referendum.
    It's a government falling apart. Unfortunately the opposition fell apart a long time ago with no sign of recovery.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    I can understand why Cameron wants a speech which annoys his MPs the least, as they are split enough over the EU referendum. I thought Corbyn did quite well today, although I have to say I can't blame Burnham for seeking the Mayoralty of Manchester.
    Offline

    15
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by meenu89)
    I can understand why Cameron wants a speech which annoys his MPs the least, as they are split enough over the EU referendum. I thought Corbyn did quite well today, although I have to say I can't blame Burnham for seeking the Mayoralty of Manchester.
    I'm quite happy about burnham being mayor of Manchester, he'll do a very good job and as he says it's important labour doesn't neglect the north (any more).

    This government is tearing itself apart. If only we had a half decent opposition. Doesn't even need to be spectacular just someone fairly competent.
    • Political Ambassador
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    Political Ambassador
    (Original post by Bornblue)
    I'm quite happy about burnham being mayor of Manchester, he'll do a very good job and as he says it's important labour doesn't neglect the north (any more).

    This government is tearing itself apart. If only we had a half decent opposition. Doesn't even need to be spectacular just someone fairly competent.
    Well put.
    Online

    13
    ReputationRep:
    When people see my avatar...

    Offline

    15
    ReputationRep:
    Its not technically against the rules, but I would like to give some members a bit of advice; don't poach members willing to join a party from them. IE if someone new joins the house and is looking to join the party, unless there is significant reasons not to, it is very unsportsmanlike to poach them; plus it may make the member not want to stay at all, as there is petty arguing over them.

    Just a wee bit of advice! toronto353
    Online

    13
    ReputationRep:
    How many times will the TSR Labour Leader have to be called out?
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    Haha, I'm doing well... this is my first drink in the Bar today!
    • TSR Support Team
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    TSR Support Team
    • Wiki Support Team
    • Political Ambassador
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    Wiki Support Team
    Political Ambassador
    (Original post by The Financier)
    How many finals did Southampton reach this season?
    • TSR Support Team
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    TSR Support Team
    (Original post by PetrosAC)
    How many finals did Southampton reach this season?
    How many finals did Liverpool win this season?
 
 
 
TSR Support Team

We have a brilliant team of more than 60 Support Team members looking after discussions on The Student Room, helping to make it a fun, safe and useful place to hang out.

Updated: August 15, 2016
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • Poll
    Has a teacher ever helped you cheat?
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

    Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

    Write a reply...
    Reply
    Hide
    Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.