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    (Original post by Cryptographic)
    The EU right now looks interesting, when the AfD get initiated into the ECR (which they will, the Cons have too little to block it) the ECR will most likely be the third largest group in the Parliament. Juncker is not looking healthy and he went into a full-on rant the other day, partially at the UK, however the fact that he needed to say what he said is showing that he is losing his grip on the Commission. He also strikes me as too proud, he is not even taking the sensible route of contacting Downing street to talk with Cameron.

    Also is anyone else thinking that Merkel, who normally is the main controller is looking increasingly sidelined in negotiations?
    Juncker summarises the problem with the EU though - arrogance. He doesn't think that he should have to get the democratically elected leaders, but should just be given the job and when Cameron dared to say no, he didn't like it. I also think that his desire to have economic debates behind closed doors is a very dangerous precedent. I'm glad that Cameron's opposing him and he's got to succeed in this fight otherwise it'll show that he doesn't have the stomach for the renegotiation when (or should I say if) he ever embarks upon that path.
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    (Original post by toronto353)
    Juncker summarises the problem with the EU though - arrogance. He doesn't think that he should have to get the democratically elected leaders, but should just be given the job and when Cameron dared to say no, he didn't like it. I also think that his desire to have economic debates behind closed doors is a very dangerous precedent. I'm glad that Cameron's opposing him and he's got to succeed in this fight otherwise it'll show that he doesn't have the stomach for the renegotiation when (or should I say if) he ever embarks upon that path.
    Yeah, also his warning of 'be ready for lots more dirt' shows that he has lots naughty secrets. Also for me personally, I support the EU as it is, however there are a few powers I would like back, but am vehemently opposed to any more power being ceded to Brussels. Cameron's remarks are just what everyone is thinking, dare I say Merkel herself, if a federalist comes to power and gets more powers then in 5 years the amount of eurosceptic MPs will increase yet again.
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    (Original post by toronto353)
    Juncker summarises the problem with the EU though - arrogance. He doesn't think that he should have to get the democratically elected leaders, but should just be given the job and when Cameron dared to say no, he didn't like it. I also think that his desire to have economic debates behind closed doors is a very dangerous precedent. I'm glad that Cameron's opposing him and he's got to succeed in this fight otherwise it'll show that he doesn't have the stomach for the renegotiation when (or should I say if) he ever embarks upon that path.
    He was chosen by democratically elected representatives in the parliament though. Personally i think this is the fault of the EU itself and how it often creates half measures. We now have a situation where elected national leaders are at loggerheads with the largest group in a democratically elected parliament.

    I suspect the fact that Hollande is not aligned with Juncker will tip the balance in favour of Cameron and Merkel will approve a consensus candidate. Had Sarkozy still being around (UMP are EPP aligned and so probably supported Juncker's nomination in parliament) i suspect that Cameron would have lost this fight. In that sense i think Cameron will win a tactical victory rather than one via a show of strength.

    Cameron will get a renegotiation regardless but won't end free movement. I suspect at the end of it all that the negotiations won't have made much difference and the British people will vote to stay albeit due to the fact that most either don't know or don't care and will vote for the status quo (the old saying goes that "Don't knows vote no").

    My bigger concern if i were in Ukip is what happens if the people vote to stay. A labour government will see that as license to do everything short of joining the Euro.

    I myself am not 100% decided albeit i lean towards 'In'.
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    (Original post by Cryptographic)
    Yeah, also his warning of 'be ready for lots more dirt' shows that he has lots naughty secrets. Also for me personally, I support the EU as it is, however there are a few powers I would like back, but am vehemently opposed to any more power being ceded to Brussels. Cameron's remarks are just what everyone is thinking, dare I say Merkel herself, if a federalist comes to power and gets more powers then in 5 years the amount of eurosceptic MPs will increase yet again.
    Personally i'm less bothered about where the laws are made than what they are and so don't agree that blindly opposing giving power to Brussels is a good thing. With that being said i do agree that things are certainly not perfect and so i would do a trade in the sense that if Europe give us a CAP, CFP and some other economic opt outs then i'd support abolishing some of our opt outs for crime and justice (i broadly thinking having the same laws for murder and rape ect.. is a good idea) in return.

    Federalists are everywhere in European institutions, i'm not convinced that skeptics will gain next time though if we see a largely trouble free parliament economically.
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    (Original post by Cryptographic)
    Yeah, also his warning of 'be ready for lots more dirt' shows that he has lots naughty secrets. Also for me personally, I support the EU as it is, however there are a few powers I would like back, but am vehemently opposed to any more power being ceded to Brussels. Cameron's remarks are just what everyone is thinking, dare I say Merkel herself, if a federalist comes to power and gets more powers then in 5 years the amount of eurosceptic MPs will increase yet again.
    The thing is that the results have shown that people don't want more of the same (they don't want withdrawal necessarily either I have to admit, but they don't want the same). In my view, the EU at the very least must abandon ever closer union and start doing much less at European level and more at a national level. The arrogance of the EU in demanding yet more money and power must also stop. However, when you've got a candidate like Juncker, then you end up with the current situation.

    I will add that I support Europe trading together harmoniously, but the union is the problem and euro fanatics just don't seem to get that.


    (Original post by Rakas21)
    He was chosen by democratically elected representatives in the parliament though. Personally i think this is the fault of the EU itself and how it often creates half measures. We now have a situation where elected national leaders are at loggerheads with the largest group in a democratically elected parliament.

    I suspect the fact that Hollande is not aligned with Juncker will tip the balance in favour of Cameron and Merkel will approve a consensus candidate. Had Sarkozy still being around (UMP are EPP aligned and so probably supported Juncker's nomination in parliament) i suspect that Cameron would have lost this fight. In that sense i think Cameron will win a tactical victory rather than one via a show of strength.

    Cameron will get a renegotiation regardless but won't end free movement. I suspect at the end of it all that the negotiations won't have made much difference and the British people will vote to stay albeit due to the fact that most either don't know or don't care and will vote for the status quo (the old saying goes that "Don't knows vote no").

    My bigger concern if i were in Ukip is what happens if the people vote to stay. A labour government will see that as license to do everything short of joining the Euro.

    I myself am not 100% decided albeit i lean towards 'In'.
    Well quite, but the lower turnout in the EU elections than in national elections gives the national leaders a greater mandate and a greater say I firmly believe. Cameron's very much ducking and diving and taking what chances come to him and he needs to be leading negotiations with a vision of what he wants to achieve. I believe that the reason that he won't name powers which he wants back is because he has very little idea of what he wants the EU to be.

    I think that Labour would be wrong to do that. A vote to stay in the EU is not a license to integrate the UK with the EU even more - it is simply a vote for the status quo at most.
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    Personally i'm less bothered about where the laws are made than what they are and so don't agree that blindly opposing giving power to Brussels is a good thing. With that being said i do agree that things are certainly not perfect and so i would do a trade in the sense that if Europe give us a CAP, CFP and some other economic opt outs then i'd support abolishing some of our opt outs for crime and justice (i broadly thinking having the same laws for murder and rape ect.. is a good idea) in return.

    Federalists are everywhere in European institutions, i'm not convinced that skeptics will gain next time though if we see a largely trouble free parliament economically.
    I agree mostly, I also do not oppose things because they are from Brussels however our HoC should be the supreme authoritative power in the UK, not a parliament riddled with petty squabbling, inefficiencies and unaccountability. Yes, our HoC do have these problems but not to such a large extent. I also agree that the CFP/CAP and Crime and justice swap would be a very good one.
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    Just heard that people are looking round for a sword for Juncker to fall on if not appointed soon.
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    (Original post by toronto353)
    The thing is that the results have shown that people don't want more of the same (they don't want withdrawal necessarily either I have to admit, but they don't want the same). In my view, the EU at the very least must abandon ever closer union and start doing much less at European level and more at a national level. The arrogance of the EU in demanding yet more money and power must also stop. However, when you've got a candidate like Juncker, then you end up with the current situation.

    I will add that I support Europe trading together harmoniously, but the union is the problem and euro fanatics just don't seem to get that.

    Well quite, but the lower turnout in the EU elections than in national elections gives the national leaders a greater mandate and a greater say I firmly believe. Cameron's very much ducking and diving and taking what chances come to him and he needs to be leading negotiations with a vision of what he wants to achieve. I believe that the reason that he won't name powers which he wants back is because he has very little idea of what he wants the EU to be.

    I think that Labour would be wrong to do that. A vote to stay in the EU is not a license to integrate the UK with the EU even more - it is simply a vote for the status quo at most.
    Personally i think that if we want to keep all EU members together in the long term rather than end up with just the Euro-zone and then everybody else out that the EU should for the moment halt expansion into poorer countries. By doing so it could then strategically review which powers should belong to member states and what the best way is to allow a continued drive towards 'ever closer union' in the core while respecting the fact that the likes of the UK will probably never join that core, in essence support a 2 speed Europe with non-Eurozone members having significantly more freedom. Not having poor countries joining also relaxes the immigration issue a little for western Europe.

    Doing so i think would lay the ground for consensus between skeptics and federalists who right now have little common ground in Europe. The federalist politicians need to accept that not every European country wants to be part of a superstate and the skeptics need to accept that some countries are quite happy being in the core. From there common ground can be reached on a range of issues (we ourselves agree on many things despite holding largely opposing views on Europe).

    Fair point on turnout.
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    (Original post by Cryptographic)
    I agree mostly, I also do not oppose things because they are from Brussels however our HoC should be the supreme authoritative power in the UK, not a parliament riddled with petty squabbling, inefficiencies and unaccountability. Yes, our HoC do have these problems but not to such a large extent. I also agree that the CFP/CAP and Crime and justice swap would be a very good one.
    That's another failure of structure i think. To solve such issues i think what could be done is to give the EP primacy and have the commission made up of elected MEP's. What you'd then do is have national parliaments act like the EP and HOL do now (a revision and amending chamber) and then just have the council rubber stamp the legislation after the 28 countries had sent back their amendments.

    That way national parliaments can both in the EP and domestically create and amend legislation.
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    That's another failure of structure i think. To solve such issues i think what could be done is to give the EP primacy and have the commission made up of elected MEP's. What you'd then do is have national parliaments act like the EP and HOL do now (a revision and amending chamber) and then just have the council rubber stamp the legislation after the 28 countries had sent back their amendments.

    That way national parliaments can both in the EP and domestically create and amend legislation.
    That would work well, as long as the amendments couldn't then be overwritten. However the only people I could see making this change are reformists and Juncker isn't one. To edit Icona Pop a bit 'Your (Juncker) from the 80's but we need a modern *****.'
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    Controversial news on the Speakership election!

    miser - 13 votes (32.5%)
    bun - 11 votes (27.5%)
    Faland - 13 votes (32.5%)

    Cryptographic - 3 votes (7.5%)
    RON - 0 votes (0%)

    RON and Crypto are eliminated (unlucky Cyrpto you would have also been a good Speaker!)

    Miser pulls out despite joint topping the polls!

    Faland and bun now go on for a two horse race, the next round of voting will be the last!
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    (Original post by Will95206)
    Controversial news on the Speakership election!

    miser - 13 votes (32.5%)
    bun - 11 votes (27.5%)
    Faland - 13 votes (32.5%)

    Cryptographic - 3 votes (7.5%)
    RON - 0 votes (0%)

    RON and Crypto are eliminated (unlucky Cyrpto you would have also been a good Speaker!)

    Miser pulls out despite joint topping the polls!

    Faland and bun now go on for a two horse race, the next round of voting will be the last!
    Two great candidates as I have said before, I'm looking forward to working with either bun or Faland when they are elected Speaker.
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    Just on the Juncker debate. I've said all along Merkel is playing this brilliantly. She's staying out of it mostly, seeing how it progresses, giving vague indication that she backs Juncker. But she hates the idea of him being president in reality, which is why she's not being so forceful in demanding he becomes president. As such, she just wants to make it look to Cameron etc that when she eventually does turn round and say 'ok we'll go with someone else' it's so that she can then demand something in return.
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    In light of the Speakership election I have a quick question:

    John Bercow - Yay or Nay?

    He is of course a man who divides opinion.
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    (Original post by RayApparently)
    In light of the Speakership election I have a quick question:

    John Bercow - Yay or Nay?

    He is of course a man who divides opinion.
    I'm mixed on him, I think he is a good Speaker but is meddling with the 'establishment' too much for no reason. (I know, rich coming from me as some of you will no doubt point out. )
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    (Original post by RayApparently)
    In light of the Speakership election I have a quick question:

    John Bercow - Yay or Nay?

    He is of course a man who divides opinion.
    He seems decent, but very patronising, and reminds me of rugby referee Nigel Owens.

    EDIT: What's with his wife though? She's not exactly been helpful at times.
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    Statement on the Speakership results
    Firstly please may I thank everyone who voted for or questioned me in this Speakership race. I knew when I entered that only having 9 months experience in the MHoC would have been a major issue to most. However I am happy to have run a campaign where I have not shirked around stating and defending my beliefs while fighting honestly on the issues that I really believe in. I look forward for quizzing the last two candidates.
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    (Original post by Cryptographic)
    I'm mixed on him, I think he is a good Speaker but is meddling with the 'establishment' too much for no reason. (I know, rich coming from me as some of you will no doubt point out. )
    Firstly, I feel obliged to say that that's rich coming from you
    But seriously...
    I also like Bercow though I understand why others don't. He's made PMQs much more interesting to watch (I know that's not the point but still...) - a difficult feet considering that Cameron and Miliband aren't exactly the most charismatic politicians...

    I think perhaps people give Bercow a tough time because they don't like him and the media has occasionally been very critical of him. In the end, he gets the job done. And he told Cameron to shut up (of course he was more elegant than that). That had me in hysterics.

    (Original post by O133)
    He seems decent, but very patronising, and reminds me of rugby referee Nigel Owens.

    EDIT: What's with his wife though? She's not exactly been helpful at times.
    Haha XD

    Ikr, she's a little bit of a distraction.
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    (Original post by Cryptographic)
    Statement on the Speakership results
    Firstly please may I thank everyone who voted for or questioned me in this Speakership race. I knew when I entered that only having 9 months experience in the MHoC would have been a major issue to most. However I am happy to have run a campaign where I have not shirked around stating and defending my beliefs while fighting honestly on the issues that I really believe in. I look forward for quizzing the last two candidates.
    Nice statement. Quality campaign, and like I said in the Tory thread (or opposition, I can't remember!) I think you'll make a brilliant speaker one day, but it's perhaps not just inexperience, but the longevity of us 3 and people maybe didn't want to risk bringing someone new in not knowing if they'd stick around etc - even though with you it was fairly clear you will!! Definitely think you deserved more votes than you got.
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    (Original post by Cryptographic)
    Statement on the Speakership results
    It's unfortunate. I think it would have been very interesting if you became the Speaker.

    However it may be a good thing that your still 'in the trenches' so to speak.
 
 
 
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