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    (Original post by Agapelove)


    Personally, I don't understand why God allowed genocides in the Old Testament.



    Focusing on protecting the children and women is not surrendering in my opinion, and fighting civil rights issues with nonviolence is also not surrendering, but is rather the best way to convict people.
    The Torah is much the OT? The Zionists obey the Torah. You say God allowed genocide in the OT.

    You see the link to the current Zionists itching for power in Israel? You understand why I stand for Hamas even though they are broken, ill-disciplined and cannot help themselves?

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    (Original post by Agapelove)
    Since I am not either the Father in Heaven or Jesus Christ, I cannot give the best answer. However, I suppose I can give my personal humble opinion as a mere mortal.

    I personally think people have been evolving in a way, where in Moses' time the people were less able to understand what people can understand now. I think God sent Jesus around 2,000 years ago because people were a bit more 'evolved' (for lack of a better term) and Jesus' teachings greatly helped people evolve even more to be able to be peaceful people who chose nonviolence instead of violence to resolve conflicts.

    While granted there are people who deliberately choose violence instead of nonviolence to resolve conflicts, I personally am of the opinion that nonviolent ways to resolve conflict is much more 'evolved' than violent ways.

    For example, my husband and I do not resolve conflicts through violence against each other. We resolve conflict by holding hands and communicating. If we tried to hurt each other, first I'd be dead cause my husband is much stronger and bigger than me, and second our marriage would not be strong or evolving/maturing.

    Another example, although you and I disagree in some areas, we are not hurting each other. We are communicating. While we continue to disagree, the fact that we can communicate without physically hurting each other shows maturity.

    Sadly, i don't think either Israel or Hamas is showing maturity in attacking each other. I think they both need to mature by handling conflict with nonviolence.

    Anyways, again to your question, while I'm not God or Jesus Christ to answer the question, my humble mere mortal opinion is that people in that time were not as mature in understanding how to handle conflict nonviolently at that time.
    No that's a dangerous thing to say. What you're saying is people should have been evolved and civilized to make love triumph over violence. That was what Inzamam99 pponyrd out. Now do you agree? That love can beat violence only when the people are civilised enough?

    You know, without violence against Hitler the Jews would have been massacred to a greater degree, and he would still be in power. Do you deny that violence is always unacceptable in today's world? That through love etc the Nazis would have been won over?

    In today's world too there are barbarians worse or equal to the Pharaoh of Moses. You'll be the one immature to deny that.

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    (Original post by RoyalBlue7)
    Should I ask forgiveness from Jesus or from God?
    Jesus Christ taught his followers to pray to their Father in Heaven, so if you want, you could direct your prayer to the Father in Heaven. Jesus Christ can hear as well, as shown by Stephen, the first Christian martyr. Stephen didn't kill anybody, but rather was killed for his belief in Jesus Christ. Before he died, he saw a vision of Jesus Christ and prayed to Jesus.
    (I boldened some.)

    '54 When the members of the Sanhedrin heard this, they were furious and gnashed their teeth at him. 55But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 56 “Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”

    57 At this they covered their ears and, yelling at the top of their voices, they all rushed at him, 58 dragged him out of the city and began to stone him. Meanwhile, the witnesses laid their coats at the feet of a young man named Saul.
    59 While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, “Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” 60 Then he fell on his knees and cried out, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them.” When he had said this, he fell asleep.'
    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...07&version=NIV


    By the way, asleep in Christian talk also means dead, like when Jesus said the girl was asleep and Lazarus was asleep - in death- (Mark 5:39; John 11:11). Since people will rise again on Judgement Day, death is like a sleep.

    Should I go to a confession in a catholic church?
    I'm not a Catholic, so I would not give that counsel. When I sin, I ask my Father in Heaven for forgiveness and strive not to sin again.

    Am I his enemy? Will his followers love me if I was?
    Lol. As a follower of Jesus Christ, I love you. I don't think you are my enemy though. You aren't trying to hurt me, as far as I am aware. My definition of an enemy to me is a person who tries to hurt me. You are more like a neighbor, and Jesus said to love one's neighbor as oneself (Matthew 22:39).

    This is the second greatest command actually: to love one's neighbor as oneself. I wish both the Arab states and Palestine and Israel were loving their neighbors as oneself.

    I have to go now. Peace and thanks for the interesting discussion.
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    (Original post by ClickItBack)
    Just reading through this article and seeing the way opinion across the political spectrum is starting to turn against Israel, I'm beginning to wonder whether the Israeli government has considered whether its actions lately are in their own long-term interests.

    Despite longstanding Western and in particular US support for Israel, they seem increasingly hard pressed to turn a blind eye to Israel's actions in the region. The UN has already condemned them repeatedly. I also worry that such a disproportionate and brutal retaliation will only engender more anti-Semitism and Islamic militancy; not to mention potentially destabilising the region further as countries like Iran adopt an even more antagonistic posture to Israel/the West.

    Benjamin Netanyahu and much of the Israeli leadership are, or at least were at one point, intelligent people. Are they being short-sighted in this conflict, though? Or do they feel that this actually secures their long term interests better than a less bloody response?
    There really is very little we can reasonably do, economically they are a technological superpower if we did decide to completely boycott them we would suffer just as much as they would. The boycott campaigns flying around really don't understand the half of it, the amount of tech related products that at least in part are developed in Israel is staggering for a country so small. Microsoft, Intel, Nokia and many more including companies that produce pharmaceutical and medical tech have huge R&D departments based in Israel, are we meant to stop using their products all together? The effect that would have on this country would be devistating.

    The other thing to consider here is look at the alternatives, Israel has problems and i agree their actions at the moment are over the top however in regards to human rights they are by far the best of a bad bunch, they don't execute gay people they don't store weapons in schools and hospitals they don't punish non-jews because they have a different religion and for the most part Israelis have freedom of speech. If we did somehow economically cripple Israel that would strengthen their neighbours who openly despise us and if they had the capabilities that we or Israel have god only knows what they would do.

    Israel isn't shooting itself in the foot because the UN has despised them for years and I’m guessing they have worked out by now the UN is all bark no bite and is ultimately powerless when dealing with a developed country, they don't care what the UN thinks. The west may criticise Israel’s actions however in the long run they are still our ally and unless the middle east goes through a social revolution in the foreseeable future that is not going to change, turning against them would hurt us just as much as them and do nothing but strengthen our enemies.

    They believe this offensive secures their interests and to some extent i agree, the dismantling of Hamas's tunnel network is something that needs to be done however i think the reason they are showing less restraint than usual and pretty much blanking our opinions is because they know the above and although this will give them bad PR for a few years at least the dismantling of Hamas seems to be a much more pressing issue than our opinion of them because when push comes to shove there is little we would be willing to do against them.
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    (Original post by Agapelove)

    I have to go now. Peace and thanks for the interesting discussion.
    Thank you! So far I've learnt that

    1. Christians even hardcore ones like you cannot understand why God allowed genocide in the OT

    2. That love that Jesus taught was delayed so that people could be civilized enough. That your opinion why violence was used to solve conflicts in the past was because people was not evolved to understand love. I don't know if you believe that there are barbarians of that type after Jesus like Hitler?

    3.That people like you are ignorant in their support of Israel who are Jews that believe in a scripture that allows genocide. That the Koran is better, much much better. That the article in The Times of Israel was justifying genocide.

    4. That Christians are hypocrites. Sorry, but that should be said. Something I reconfirmed.



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    (Original post by Et Tu, Brute?)
    Awwwww man, here we go, the 'well Hamas do this.....waaaaaaaaahhhhhhh waaaaaahhhhhh!!!' go ****ing cry about it somewhere else.

    Israel have their iron dome which keeps their own people safe for the most part. Thus they have absolutely no reason to respond to the rocket attacks in the nature that they are doing. I'm not saying well they have the iron dome, so sit back and do nothing...not at all, so don't bother with that angle.

    What I am saying, is that when militants are allegedly spotted firing from hospitals for example, there is nothing to justify targeting that hospital with ****ing missiles. You seem to believe that people have an issue with Israel defending itself...they don't, people have an issue with Israel bombing densely populated areas, bombing schools, kids playing on the beach, hospitals, houses etc and then justifying the huge civilian collateral as human shields = Hamas' fault.

    I'm sorry, but no, every single civilian casualty is not Hamas' fault. The people of Israel are largely safe and sound, thus the destruction they are bring to the people of Gaza is not called for whatsoever. They have a military fully capable of taking on the Al-Qassam Brigades, greatly reducing the number of civilian casualties. Yes it will increase the number of dead Israeli soldiers, but unless you value the lives of Israeli soldiers (people who signed up knowing they could die) above innocent civilians, then I don't see a problem with that.
    What should Israel's response be then, if you say they should not sit around and hope their Iron Fome protects them and should not fire rockets at Hamas launch bases. Diplomacy? That hasn't worked for the past 50 years. Ground invasion? More deaths? Send an angry letter to them? Oh please.

    And no soldier signs up to willingly die numb nuts, thats precisely why they sign up :facepalm: and it is pretty stupid to propose killing your own side. I hope you never join any nations military if you think it is a good idea to kill and waste your own men. Also Israel has conscription, so these soldiers are not even volunteers.

    So, what should Israel do?

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    (Original post by Sic semper erat)
    The Iron Dome is expensive and isnt always accurate. The US and Israel investing so much on security does not give a pass for anyone to fire rockets.
    So which angle did I say not to take again?

    The Gaza Strip as a whole is densely populated. There's no such thing as "area x is populated while area y is not", its all populated. Don't want 1,499 people to die? then they should stop their islamonazi leaders from shooting rockets.
    Don't want 1,499 people to die? Then don't lunch missiles at them. Innocent people have nothing to do with the Al-Qassam Brigades, to say their deaths are on their own hands is utterly ridiculous frankly.

    They started it..
    Oh well that changes everything then. For a second there I thought we were talking about international politics, war and actual human beings being massacred. Turns out it is nothing more than a school yard scuffle, how very mature of you.

    for months this has been going on before the Israelis finally reacted. Even the Palestinian Authority has told Hamas to stop it already.
    Not sure what this has to do with anything I say but whatever...what did Israel do about it? Did they attempt to make living conditions in Gaza more tolerable? You can't oppress people in the way they do and expect them not to fire rockets at you.

    Stop expecting a higher moral standard from Israel. You really think if a NATO aircraft spots a rocket launcher, they'll send in ground forces? they'd shoot the *******s there and then.
    I'm not expecting a higher moral standard from Israel. They are no better than a bunch of terrorists in suits that have UN status as a country and funding from the USA etc, not the first time they have funded terrorists after all. I don't expect any moral high ground from bigoted terrorists. I grew up in Northern Ireland, I am well away what scumbags such as these are like.

    But anyway, they likely wouldn't if civilians were in the immediate area. Why do you think the British army didn't flatten the likes of west Belfast or nuke Crossmaglen? Because civilians lived there, what is why. Hence why they send in their ground forces. Palestine and Northern Ireland are essentially parallel conflicts, yet Israel shows no respect for civilian life other than a few flyers or warning pops to show the international community they tired with the inevitably high death toll is published in the international media.
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    (Original post by Darth Stewie)
    There really is very little we can reasonably do, economically they are a technological superpower if we did decide to completely boycott them we would suffer just as much as they would. The boycott campaigns flying around really don't understand the half of it, the amount of tech related products that at least in part are developed in Israel is staggering for a country so small. Microsoft, Intel, Nokia and many more including companies that produce pharmaceutical and medical tech have huge R&D departments based in Israel, are we meant to stop using their products all together? The effect that would have on this country would be devistating.

    The other thing to consider here is look at the alternatives, Israel has problems and i agree their actions at the moment are over the top however in regards to human rights they are by far the best of a bad bunch, they don't execute gay people they don't store weapons in schools and hospitals they don't punish non-jews because they have a different religion and for the most part Israelis have freedom of speech. If we did somehow economically cripple Israel that would strengthen their neighbours who openly despise us and if they had the capabilities that we or Israel have god only knows what they would do.

    Israel isn't shooting itself in the foot because the UN has despised them for years and I’m guessing they have worked out by now the UN is all bark no bite and is ultimately powerless when dealing with a developed country, they don't care what the UN thinks. The west may criticise Israel’s actions however in the long run they are still our ally and unless the middle east goes through a social revolution in the foreseeable future that is not going to change, turning against them would hurt us just as much as them and do nothing but strengthen our enemies.

    They believe this offensive secures their interests and to some extent i agree, the dismantling of Hamas's tunnel network is something that needs to be done however i think the reason they are showing less restraint than usual and pretty much blanking our opinions is because they know the above and although this will give them bad PR for a few years at least the dismantling of Hamas seems to be a much more pressing issue than our opinion of them because when push comes to shove there is little we would be willing to do against them.

    Glad that at least one person engaged with the actual question rather than enter into a discussion of whether they're the spawn of evil or not .

    Your points on the close integration of Israel with the West, and particularly in research and development, are very true. In some respects they are more important on this front than many countries in Europe even e.g. Greece.

    I disagree with the assessment though that this will only lead to a 'few bad years of PR'. As I said in my opening post, I think the extent of their actions will foment long term more outright antagonism in the surrounding region, where previously many countries - although they did not like Israel - at least were not actively engaged in plotting its downfall.

    For example, the slow encroachment of illegal settlements backed up by the military was a smart strategy, in my opinion (note that I'm not in support of it; I, as with the UN, believe it was illegal). It was not something which the media could report on its front pages every day, really - how could they lead with 'New house built in desert'? As a gradual occupation and with little in the way of body count, it seemed a much smarter strategy to accomplishing the goals of their more fervent Zionist wing. With the current strategy, even a total wipeout of Hamas (which is unlikely to happen) isn't likely to bring them any closer to their goal of regional security - on the contrary I think it will only make that situation worse.
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    (Original post by merrill)
    What should Israel's response be then, if you say they should not sit around and hope their Iron Fome protects them and should not fire rockets at Hamas launch bases. Diplomacy? That hasn't worked for the past 50 years. Ground invasion? More deaths? Send an angry letter to them? Oh please.
    Ground force operations...like I said...you know, like in the post you just read? You know that one, the one you quoted to reply and wrote a response to? It was in there, you must have missed it.

    And no soldier signs up to willingly die numb nuts, thats precisely why they sign up :facepalm: and it is pretty stupid to propose killing your own side. I hope you never join any nations military if you think it is a good idea to kill and waste your own men. Also Israel has conscription, so these soldiers are not even volunteers.

    So, what should Israel do?

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    Really. So how about all the dual nationals who are able to avoid military service then? They must have been caught at the airport trying to flee Israel maybe. As for the ones who have to travel to Israel to join, I guess the hopped on the wrong flight and the gestapo were at the airport in Tel Aviv waiting to pick them up and throw the camos on them right away right?

    Don't kid yourself into thinking a large number of these soldiers are not happy to be in the military regardless of whether it is compulsory or not.

    And I never said anyone joins to willingly die. I said they join up knowing they could die...they know the risks.

    Please go back to the part that I said it is a 'good idea to kill and waste your own men'? wtf are you even talking about.
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    I believe that Israel does not want to destroy Hamas, much to the anger of their Arab allies. This latest massacre was started for the sole purpose of destroying the strongest unity Palestinians have enjoyed in the recent last when Hamas and Fatah shook hands. Netanyahu wants a two-state solution no more than Hamas wants it. The government of Israel would be grateful as always to Fatah and the PA in the West Bank for allowing them to expand and build settlements illegally, and for not resisting the occupation.

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    (Original post by Sic semper erat)
    Thats like saying "don't want millions to die? then don't stop Nazi Germany from invading Poland or anywhere for that matter". And in no conflict in history have civilians that have nothing to do with militants not been killed.



    Yes, they started it. Is Israel bombing the West Bank? no - maybe because the Palestinian Authority is a peaceful movement while Hamas are islamonazi trash.



    Yawn, the "living conditions" garbage argument. There was no blockade of Gaza from 2005 till 2007 when the PA was in charge and at a time rockets werent being fired at Israel. Israel had completely withdrawn to the 67 lines and everyone including the Israelis said, "Gaza can now become the Singapore of the Middle East". Don't want a blockade? don't shoot rockets, stupid.



    Yeah, sure you're not. And you're just jealous of the US and Israel's great relationship.

    Isnt Northern Ireland an occupation of Irish land? go back to England, thief.



    I dont know anything about that conflict


    lol kkz whatever mate. I've had enough of this rubbish. This conflict will likely not be solved by arguments online, so I can't be bothered really. I'm going to the gym.

    Also, I'm Irish, so I have no idea why I would go back to England for any reason other than to finish my degree.
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    (Original post by ClickItBack)
    Glad that at least one person engaged with the actual question rather than enter into a discussion of whether they're the spawn of evil or not .
    There does seem to be a severe lack of middle ground whenever Israel and Palestine are involved

    Your points on the close integration of Israel with the West, and particularly in research and development, are very true. In some respects they are more important on this front than many countries in Europe even e.g. Greece.

    I disagree with the assessment though that this will only lead to a 'few bad years of PR'. As I said in my opening post, I think the extent of their actions will foment long term more outright antagonism in the surrounding region, where previously many countries - although they did not like Israel - at least were not actively engaged in plotting its downfall.
    The PR comment was mainly in reference to western nations honestly i think relations between Israel and the Islamic world are pretty much dead already, the only country in that region that even remotely seems interested in mediating a resolve to the conflict is Egypt and they are disliked by Hamas because the current government ousted the Muslim Brotherhood and disliked by Israel because despite some progress in recent years both view each other as a military threat and continue to posture on their respective borders.

    Most of their neighbours have no diplomatic relationships with Israel and some don't even recognise them as a country, it's hard to see how diplomatic relations could be hurt even more when they are already pretty much non existent. In terms of plotting their downfall honestly i think if either Israel or their neighbours were given the chance to remove each other without any lasting ramifications they would do it without a second thought.

    Diplomatic ramifications just don't seem to apply in regards to Israel and their neighbours, they openly hate each other and neither side seemingly has any interest in repairing this and honestly even if they tried i can't see it happening, they oppose each other on a fundamental level.

    For example, the slow encroachment of illegal settlements backed up by the military was a smart strategy, in my opinion (note that I'm not in support of it; I, as with the UN, believe it was illegal). It was not something which the media could report on its front pages every day, really - how could they lead with 'New house built in desert'? As a gradual occupation and with little in the way of body count, it seemed a much smarter strategy to accomplishing the goals of their more fervent Zionist wing. With the current strategy, even a total wipeout of Hamas (which is unlikely to happen) isn't likely to bring them any closer to their goal of regional security - on the contrary I think it will only make that situation worse.
    I think Israel has accepted the fact that their regional security will never be at the level of a European or north American country, their goals seem to be to cripple Hamas as much as possible rather than wiping them out which is probably the most realistic option especially considering how much of a difficult task that would be as our government could attest considering our recent invasions and how much trouble we have had.
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    I dont support either side. Hamas shouldn't fire rockets, there is absolutely no point. Yet Israel shouldn't be occupying Gaza and shouldn't continue to fire rockets into Gaza killing innocent civilians. Both sides don't want the current conflict to end in my opinion.
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    (Original post by Agapelove)
    That's why olive branches need to be extended, like what MLK Jr. did. He didn't just march and protest; he made connections with white skinned people by actively loving them and being friends with them. That's why love is vital to civil rights.
    With all due respect, MLK Jr. had it different.

    Segregation =/= Occupation.

    How can you "become friends" with your jailer who is intent on depriving you of your most basic needs such as food, shelter and life?

    Protests without love don't generally get great results.
    In the last 25 years, tell me of a protest (with or without love) which has actually achieved something?

    The UK has actually changed a lot. Whereas before William Wilberforce fought without violence against slavery, the UK engaged in slavery. Whereas before the UK colonized many parts of the world, the UK allowed people around the world to immigrate. These are radical changes, which has greatly changed who the UK is today.
    Refer to the question above.

    No it's not. Protesting is a way to raise a following.
    You could have fooled me.

    Protest: To object to, especially in a formal statement.

    You think the Native Americans wanted more European immigrants, after the conflict between Native Americans and European immigrants/descendants started?
    What they thought by that time was irrelevant as military conquest had already taken place.

    The Iron Dome and Israelis taking cover are highly effective.
    rs.
    You said "Rockets kill". I'm telling you that they have 0.07722% of killing you.

    You are more at risk from cancer than a rocket.
    You are more at risk from a stroke than a rocker.

    Hell, you have more of a chance dying from peanut butter than a frigging rocket in Israel.

    Israel knows how to protect Israelis. Hamas however doesn't.
    What good will a bomb shelter do if all your warning systems are taken out?

    To the international community without continuing to try to kill Israelis.
    The "international community" put them in this situation in the first place.
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    What Israel is doing isn't just immoral it's downright evil. Boohoo a few primitive rockets have been fired at Israel that rarely kill anyone I'm sure more Israeli Jews have died having baths than by Hamas.
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    Qassam state they have no links, knowledge nor information about the circumstances of the "abducted" soldier.

    They go on to state that they presumed all IDF soldiers where the alleged abduction took place had been killed in the course of the attack.
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    (Original post by Sic semper erat)
    10,000 rockets in 9 years, islamonazi. Rockets that have reached as far as Tel Aviv, Jerusalem, Haifa, Bethlehem, Hebron, Nataniya.

    British people 70 years ago who had V1 and V2 rockets fired at them from Germany would spit at people like you for making such statements. Imagine if a single rocket decided to make its way from Germany and hit a street in London.
    Hey, what's the kill ratio of the V1/V2 rockets compared to the rockets that HAMAS fires?
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    (Original post by Sic semper erat)
    10,000 rockets in 9 years, islamonazi. Rockets that have reached as far as Tel Aviv, Jerusalem, Haifa, Bethlehem, Hebron, Nataniya.

    British people 70 years ago who had V1 and V2 rockets fired at them from Germany would spit at people like you for making such statements. Imagine if a single rocket decided to make its way from Germany and hit a street in London.
    Good point, the rockets Hamas are firing are killing thousands of Israeli's. The Israeli rockets do very little damage and they definitely haven't killed 1,400 people in 4 weeks... Oh wait...
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    (Original post by Sic semper erat)
    Iron Dome and good bomb shelters didnt exist back then,
    My dear fellow. You seem to be preempting the arguments you feel I would have made had you actually provided the kill ratio.

    All I wanted was comparison of the kill ration and I get a diatribe in return.

    islamonazi.
    Was this an insult aimed at me? If so, can you be a little clearer? It kinda defeats the purpose if you make the other person ask if it was an insult or not...

    I doubt Churchill would have declared a ceasefire even if defense systems existed.
    The RAF existed. There were also air raid sirens...

    Quran toilet scrolls claim that Tel Aviv is a muslim city and therefore rocket attacks are somehow justified.
    That's simply fascinating. Do tell where...

    Doesn't it rather defeat the object of Muslims firing rockets at what you have claimed is a "Muslim city"...
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    (Original post by Sic semper erat)
    I will not apologize for the fact that your islamonazi savages didnt succeed in killing many people.
    Not sure if your actually serious or just trolling... Also 'islamonazi', really??

    If you have actually seen any of my posts you would realise I am in no way a supporter of Hamas, in fact I think what they are doing is awful. They definitely shouldn't be trying to kill Israeli's. But I think what Israel is doing is far worse. For me the self defence argument becomes invalid when your killing children, why do Israel need to defend themselves against children again?
 
 
 
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