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Question for Atheists watch

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    Empiricist
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    (Original post by Teaddict)
    Atheism is just another religion.
    The beliefs of both theism and atheism are rooted in the groundless reasoning of the existence and non-existence of God. Neither are scientifically based and both are a faith in the unknown.

    Firstly, there are there no supernatural beings in atheism, coupled with the fact that almost everything which exists within religion is missing from Atheism aswell. All religions even the non theist types have sets of beliefs, rituals, and practices which are all well defined. However, in atheism there are no common beliefs, no laws or regulations, no churches or rituals, no unified concept of spirituality, no scriptures, no priesthood, no founders, no holidays, no identifying clothing, no concept of the afterlife, and no creation myth.

    Atheist individuals are free to work things out for themselves, to employ free thought entirely devoid of external intevention. The only values fellow Atheists posess are a rejection of the supernatural as a force for organising their lives, and a lack of organisations purporting to enforce uniformity and belief among the masses.

    If anything Atheism is the rejection and opposite of religion. Not even the most famous new athiests declare god non existent. But like fairies and unicorns, they infer that he is highly improbable. This conclusion is based on scientifc evidence and reasoning, sprinkled with logic. Which is also something which doesn't happen in religion.
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    (Original post by bansheeee*)
    You either have faith or you don't ,if you are relying on facts to have faith then it's not real faith. If everything was fact there would be no such thing as having beliefs.
    You have not addressed my arguments put forward but instead restated what you put originally.
    Please could you address my issue with relying on faith in the way you've proposed.
    That is if we can rely on faith without facts we can believe in anything. Literally.
    The celestial teapot is there according to my faith.
    You can't disprove it.
    So you're saying it's logical, correct, about my believe in a teapot that we can't see orbiting the earth?
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    (Original post by Zoob1)
    I don't understand how people can take the bible or any holy book seriously, religion was just used as a form of social control in the old days. Why is there no historical evidence of Jesus apart from in the bible? Who's too say the bible is even a valid source of information.

    Also there's a problem with the three major monotheistic religions in that, they all say "This religion is truth, all other religions will go to hell" But there are still those who will have never heard of a certain religion in their life time due to geographic location and they will burn in hell for their ignorance? Lol, I doubt such a loving god is so cold.
    Pretty sure there is quite a bit of evidence for Jesus, or several 'Jesus', being a real person around that time; what there isn't evidence for is him being the son of God or anything silly.

    If you don't take it 100% literally and use it alongside other sources I think the bible can be kinda useful but yeah, a book that has been rewritten countless times by different people isn't all that great. ;p

    Oh and I'm not 100% sure on this but don't Muslims believe that good people of any religion can get into their equivalent of heaven?
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    (Original post by py0alb)
    cool, a type 3 theist.


    Theist spotting is fun.
    What's that a reference to XD.
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    (Original post by Zoob1)
    I don't understand how people can take the bible or any holy book seriously, religion was just used as a form of social control in the old days. Why is there no historical evidence of Jesus apart from in the bible? Who's too say the bible is even a valid source of information..
    Exactly. The Gospels are copies of copies of copies of copies. Which have been altered and edited numerous times throughout history. Not to mention the fact they were written over a centruy after christ was said to exist, and, that the stroy of Jesus is almost completely unoriginal, it being borrowed from pretty much every other virgin birth/miraculous son of god story which existed. Most notably that of Mithras or Augustus.
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    (Original post by morecambebay)
    atheism is a lack of belief.
    Atheism is the unsubstantiated belief in the lack of existence of God.

    (Original post by Aeolus)
    Firstly, there are there no supernatural beings in atheism, coupled with the fact that almost everything which exists within religion is missing from Atheism aswell. All religions even the non theist types have sets of beliefs, rituals, and practices which are all well defined. However, in atheism there are no common beliefs, no laws or regulations, no churches or rituals, no unified concept of spirituality, no scriptures, no priesthood, no founders, no holidays, no identifying clothing, no concept of the afterlife, and no creation myth.
    Sorry but there is a very large common belief? Atheism is the belief that no gods/deities exist.

    Atheist individuals are free to work things out for themselves, to employ free thought entirely devoid of external intevention. The only values fellow Atheists posess are a rejection of the supernatural as a force for organising their lives, and a lack of organisations purporting to enforce uniformity and belief among the masses.
    There are common values then?
    Just because you believe there is no "supernatural" intervention doesn't make it so.

    If anything Atheism is the rejection and opposite of religion. Not even the most famous new athiests declare god non existent. But like fairies and unicorns, they infer that he is highly improbable. This conclusion is based on scientifc evidence and reasoning, sprinkled with logic. Which is also something which doesn't happen in religion
    There is neither logic nor evidence.
    What annoys me is that many atheisms dismiss the concept of God without first questioning what God is? God could be a superior being, a force or the Universe itself...
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    (Original post by concubine)
    Pretty sure there is quite a bit of evidence for Jesus, or several 'Jesus', being a real person around that time; what there isn't evidence for is him being the son of God or anything silly.
    There is evidence for plenty of mentall disturbed 'prophets' roaming ancient Palestine. But nothing for Jesus except for what is contained in the Gospels.

    In fact the evidence goes against the story of Jesus. Mainly the apparent census which was ordered by the Emperor Augustus in which everyone had to return to their places of birth. There are no records to this census, the only reference to any type of census being recorded by a Jewish historian 6 years after the birth of Jesus and 2 years after the death of Herod, and this census was knowhere near as extensive, nor did it require anybody to return to their places of birth.

    You can also take into account that the Roman officials who were said to be governing the regioon at the time were in fact, not the right ones. Nor was there any official records of a man being capable of miraculous feats. Or even a man stirring up the Jews to the extent that Jesus apparently did.

    Couple this with the many, many other miraculous birth/son of god myths which existed Jesus and preceded him by up to thousands of years. The most similar was that of the Roman mystery god Osiris or Zarathustra, the stories of whom are almost identical to that of christ, and precede him.
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    (Original post by Teaddict)
    Atheism is the unsubstantiated belief in the lack of existence of God.Sorry but there is a very large common belief? Atheism is the belief that no gods/deities exist.There are common values then?
    Just because you believe there is no "supernatural" intervention doesn't make it so.
    There is neither logic nor evidence.
    What annoys me is that many atheisms dismiss the concept of God without first questioning what God is? God could be a superior being, a force or the Universe itself...

    If he is then there is absolutely no evidence for him, and what scientific evidence we have suggests the existence of such a being is highly improbable, and that the existence of the being as depicted in most human faith is of the highest levels improbable.

    I take it you do not believe in fairies or intergalactic dragonflies? Why don't you believe in these things?

    You still have not made the case for how Atheism resembles a religion.
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    (Original post by Teaddict)
    Atheism is just another religion.
    The beliefs of both theism and atheism are rooted in the groundless reasoning of the existence and non-existence of God. Neither are scientifically based and both are a faith in the unknown.
    funny, because i did my theory of knowledge oral presentation on the exact same topic...

    I personally thought that atheism is not a religion. What you are saying is right and i agree with it, but thats just because what i think of atheism and your definition of atheism is different.

    for me, atheism= Not believing that god exists
    NOT atheism = believing that god doesnt exist.

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    of course i am not saying he doesnt exist, i am just saying I refuse to believe due to lack of apparent evidence and personal preference (Theists in South Korea are.... not very bright ones...)
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    and I believe that the faith atheists are basing on is not the religious faith but rather faith (as in you are very sure that this will happen, like sun rising every morning)
    You have faith that your girlfriend loves you, but it doesnt mean I have to read her diaries and pray at her posters (ewww)
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    I guess its partially due to upbringing.. my dad is a complete athiest and my mum was christened but only goes to Church at xmas.

    I just don't understand how people CAN believe in God. To have that much faith in something that there is no evidence for, and that completely contrasts with scientific proof is completely illogical I think. x
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    (Original post by vas876)
    Give up!

    These arguments always end the same way.

    "Well I don't care, God Did it"

    Just wait and the battle will be won on intellectual ground in the years to come.
    BTW bro, seriously well done for the offer! Totally off topic, but still well done.
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    (Original post by jammythedodger)
    Just to say the no evidence thing; its not hard to suggest that something spiritual is lacking in physical evidence, simply because the two are seperate.

    If one for example was looking for evidence of Jesus, one would need to examine thematter spiritually... basically one needs to do some digging in their own heart and soul.

    If one takes the Bible, for example, as the authority on Christianity (either as factual or as one takes the Harry Potter books as the authority on Harry Potter), then clearly the argument put is that to get a response from God, you have to believe in Him.

    "Everything you ask for in prayer will be yours, if you only have faith." Mark 11

    There are various other quotesthat I don't have time to find, but basically, the message the Gospel's give out (if it's the leading authority on Christianity whether the religion is true or not) is basically Put your faith me, and I will be there. Demand I make the first move, and you'll get nowhere.

    So, if Christianity is the truth: if you demand for physical evidence without putting any faith in, you'll find nothing.
    If you put faith in and pray with all your heart that God comes into your life, he will.

    If Christianity is not the truth: then nothing will happen to anything.
    Well, history would also have to back up Christianity, which is doesn't. The 'spiritual' evidence as you put it is a load of tripe as well. You know they performed a controlled experiment for surgery patients where some were prayed for and some weren't, and the ones who were prayed for suffered more complications? This god hypothesis doesn't seem to stand up that well.

    Also, we can't choose what we believe - we either believe it, or we don't. We can't simply 'have faith' without a reason to believe.


    But clearly, most of those who think they have faith without doubts receive a "reply" of some discription... so, I'll bet on "something" being true.
    What do you mean?
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    (Original post by Teaddict)
    Atheism is just another religion.
    The beliefs of both theism and atheism are rooted in the groundless reasoning of the existence and non-existence of God. Neither are scientifically based and both are a faith in the unknown.
    Interesting how, without science, religion would not exist :rolleyes:

    The big question being, is it true that without religion science would not exist?


    I think many atheists have an open mind with regards to tha nature of the universe and would prefer to gain concrete proof for EITHER viewpoint as apposed to blindly following a belief which could so easily be a simply by-product of our social and intellectual development (the notion most humans have that they are more intelligent, and thus more important, than animals).

    I'm not atheist for a religious reason like you state, i'm atheist for a psychological reason. If your going to classify atheism as a religion please be aware that many atheists are scientists who will believe the hard facts, we don't put our faith in something we cannot objectively measure and we tend to be open-minded. Religion is a personal thing but more often than not an atheist will want the truth, not to preach their beliefs to others
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    (Original post by there's too much love)
    What's that a reference to XD.
    there are 3 types of theist and 3 types of atheist:

    Type 1: Fundamental Atheists:
    Believe vehemently that God does NOT exist - and does not see the irony in this position. Quite often a position held as a form of rebellion, or a fashion statement. Theists' favourite strawman, they tend to assume every atheist holds this position.

    Type 2: Rational Atheists:
    Understand the notion of the scientific method and the importance of empirical evidence in formulating theories about the world. Recognise that the question of a non-interfering divine existence is by definition untenable, and therefore a waste of time and a distraction of human endeavour. Quite often combined with a progressive humanist, antitheist stance.

    Type 3: Apathetic Atheists:
    The majority of atheists. They don't believe in anything, because they don't really think about it. Every baby is an apathetic atheist.

    Type 1: Wishful-thinking Theists:
    The majority of theists: Privately acknowledge that there is no evidence for a divinity, but think that the world would be so much "nicer" if there was a god, and act accordingly. Harmless, if intellectually cowardly; their existence acts as an enabler for the more dangerous members of their sect.

    Type2: Mis-informed Theists:
    Belief is based on a misunderstanding of some scientific or philosophical principle or other. Frequently post on these boards saying absurd things like "there is too much complexity for the world not to have been designed", or "something must have started the big bang".

    Type 3: Fundamental Theists:
    They don't care about evidence; in fact they take pride in their ability to hold a belief in direct opposition to rational thought. Technically a form of insanity, they call this dangerous stupidity "faith".

    Theist spotting is great. For example the first episode of "The History of the Bible" which was on last week could be summarised as:

    Type 2 atheist interviews his Jewish father in law - a type 3 theist, followed by a crazy pastor guy - a type 2 theist, followed by a scientist at the natural history museum - a type 2 atheist as you would expect, and finally (incorrectly) accuses Richard Dawkins of being a type 1 atheist, then finally admits that he verging is on being a type 1 theist himself.
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    (Original post by flowerness)
    What are your reasons for not believing in a God or religion?!

    This is a really short message but I'd like to see what people say first then I'll contribute
    There is no reason to.

    Besides, God people are in the minority now in the UK.
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    I have my own mind and I'm intelligent. I don't need some old fictional verbose novel telling me things I already know like it's wrong to steal and telling me to live for my death by worshiping some thing in the sky so I go to "heaven" afterwards. I find religion patronising.
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    The problem with saying "it's just a book" is that so are many other texts we do believe in. In school we learnt from science, history and math textbooks and assumed that the people who wrote them knew what they were talking about. Sometimes they were wrong on individual points, or succeeded as their tenets were proven false by subsequent inquiry, but the whole textbook system wasn't rejected as a result of this. Apart from a few experiments in science and cultural/experience-based "common sense" there was little apparent difference between these and sacred texts. I believe textbooks are subject to editorial and peer review, but I don't actually see it happen. Discoveries are usually the result of painstaking research, but I don't see that either. I could be living in The Matrix, or The Trueman Show.

    I have to pick and choose what I follow. There isn't time to do all the experiments that have every been carried out, and create a system of math from first principles, and check if all those things that are meant to be good/bad for me really are, and still go to the pub. I operate roughly a simplified version of Falsification. Assume it might be true unless something comes up that strongly suggests it ain't.

    I was RC as a child. I turned the other cheek, and actually read the bible quite a few times. At some point I could no longer reconcile the idea of a god who was Omnipotent, Omniscient and Omnibenevolent, yet allowed bad things to happen to good people, and more than that would actually punish good people if they failed to play to his/her/its vanity and worship. The imminent/imminant discussion doesn't resolve the issue for me, nor do any of the protestations that "it's all part of a plan". If the deity is forced to do things a certain way (pain and suffering), to shape people as it wants then it's not omnipotent.

    I don't deny that there might be something bigger than us out there. I think its quite likely that there is something more powerful, even if it's just our equivalent of the "great white god" the Aztecs saw in Montezuma. What I don't believe in is the omnibenevolent yet vengeful and vain bearded bloke in the sky. He just doesn't make sense to me.
 
 
 
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