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what would happen if people had a white or caucasian society at a university watch

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    (Original post by Lawz-)
    As is white culture. Ask the BNP.
    And what do they say? If you can't be bothered to reference, I can't be bothered to look, it's your argument that's suffering. It seems like your only defence is to present no real argument and then to criticise others'.


    (Original post by Lawz-)
    Regardless I disagree entirely with your ridiculous premise - namely that a "black" society is one that focuses on "african american culture". Your entire post is based upon that notion...
    Ok, I that was my initial statement, which I then clarified to be:

    (Original post by wacabac)
    Black: belonging to a racial group having brown to black skin, especially one of African origin.
    ...which most people would assume to be African culture, or African-American (and Black british culture which is heavily influenced by Black American culture). If you aren't satisfied with usage of a word then don't complain about it here, write to the Oxford Dictionary, or Tony Blair, I couldn't care less if you wanted cake to be spelt 'cayk' or that you thought that Cat Deeley should come in the Dictionary under 'cat'. You get so worked up on trivialities such as being overly-pedantic about definitions. If you don't know what the common understanding of "Black Culture" is, you're not an authority to create a definition yourself and preach to everyone what the word means according to Lawz: look it up!. And if you find a definition of "Black culture" which coincides with yours, then please do show me, I'd be very interested.
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    (Original post by wacabac)
    And what do they say? If you can't be bothered to reference, I can't be bothered to look, it's your argument that's suffering. It seems like your only defence is to present no real argument and then to criticise others'.
    Oh FFS... look - the BNP use the term "white culture" all the time. If you dont believe me fine... its 3 am and I am not about to "reference" blindingly obvious points of fact.

    (Original post by wacabac)
    ...which most people would assume to be African culture, or African-American (and Black british culture which is heavily influenced by Black American culture).
    African AND African American. African culture is disparate and just as broad as white culture.

    (Original post by wacabac)
    If you aren't satisfied with usage of a word then don't complain about it here, write to the Oxford Dictionary, or Tony Blair, I couldn't care less if you wanted cake to be spelt 'cayk' or that you thought that Cat Deeley should come in the Dictionary under 'cat'. You get so worked up on trivialities such as being overly-pedantic about definitions.
    Don't be an ass.

    (Original post by wacabac)
    If you don't know what the common understanding of "Black Culture" is, you're not an authority to create a definition yourself and preach to everyone what the word means according to Lawz: look it up!. And if you find a definition of "Black culture" which coincides with yours, then please do show me, I'd be very interested.
    Im not redefining anything at all. If black culture INCLUDES african culture... then it INCLUDES much more than african american culture. Simple as.
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    (Original post by Lawz-)
    Essentially what you are saying is:


    "black culture" means african american culture - so its really mostly about rap, RNB, and the like - so thats very specific indeed, and means a great deal.
    What on earth are you talking about? I'll say it again:

    Black: belonging to a racial group having brown to black skin, especially one of African origin.

    If indeed you are talking about african american culture then no, it's not "really mostly about rap, RNB, and the like", you are talking absolute rubbish! African American culture isn't just about music, it's about so much more than that! I think it arrogant to belittle a culture steeped in history in such a fashion as you have, obviously you have no appreciation whatsoever of what Black Culture really is and obviously are no authority to start telling others what Black Culture is.

    (Original post by Lawz-)
    "white culture" is meaningless because I dont hear it that often
    .

    No no no. I'm saying that "White culture" is meaningless THEREFORE it is barely ever used.

    (Original post by Lawz-)
    Nevermind the fact that many "black" societies dont even begin to limit themselves to "afrian american" culture.
    No and I have included that in the definition of Black Culture. Black Culture does include African-American (and Black British) and African culture, and its meaning varies according to context, but NOT FURTHER than these two/three sub-categories I have mentioned.
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    (Original post by wacabac)
    Black: belonging to a racial group having brown to black skin, especially one of African origin.
    SO black culture would be - "the culture of those with brown to black skin, especially of Africna origin" in your mind?

    (Original post by wacabac)
    If indeed you are talking about african american culture then no, it's not "really mostly about rap, RNB, and the like", you are talking absolute rubbish! African American culture isn't just about music, it's about so much more than that! I think it arrogant to belittle a culture steeped in history in such a fashion as you have, obviously you have no appreciation whatsoever of what Black Culture really is and obviously are no authority to start telling others what Black Culture is.
    I was actually taking that from cottonmouth, who contended that black societies are mainly about that aspect of the culture.

    Anyway, having studied black history specifically before, Im quite comfortable with my level of knowledge on the subject.

    Regardless, your contention that "Black culture" was mainly limited to african american culture was odd to say the least.

    Look - here's a time save - why dont you define what YOU think black culture means.

    .
    (Original post by wacabac)
    No no no. I'm saying that "White culture" is meaningless THEREFORE it is barely ever used.
    Except that it has meaning to a decent number of people, and can be expressed in a meaningful manner.

    (Original post by wacabac)
    No and I have included that in the definition of Black Culture. Black Culture does include African-American (and Black British) and African culture, and its meaning varies according to context, but NOT FURTHER than these two/three sub-categories I have mentioned.
    Fine. But if it includes "African cultures" then it is equally as disparate, if not more so than white cultures are.
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    What is your point about such clarification of the term Black Culture? I know, why don't you tell me what you think it means?

    Don't quote others in such a fashion if you don't agree with it (which obviously you did but as soon as the point got ripped to shreds you could deny all responsibility of making the comment).

    My contention that "Black culture" was mainly limited to african american culture was not odd at all, considering that in this country, our British Black culture is heavily influenced by African American culture; I was simply referring to the Black culture which primarily emanates from our country.

    White culture DOES NOT have a meaning to a decent number of people, plenty of people on this thread have been confused by the term, I have read articles on the internet saying the phrase is a myth and if the BNP use it, it's basically a disguise for their racism by pretending they are acting in the interests of white people in this country.

    If "African culture" is a term far more nebulous that "White Culture" then how come it is a term constantly in use? Because it actually means something!!!
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    (Original post by wacabac)
    What is your point about such clarification of the term Black Culture? I know, why don't you tell me what you think it means?


    Fine. The Culture of black societies, African, African-American, Afro-Caribbean, Black British, Black French, Black German ... etc etc. etc

    THAT is BLACK culture IMO.

    (Original post by wacabac)
    Don't quote others in such a fashion if you don't agree with it (which obviously you did but as soon as the point got ripped to shreds you could deny all responsibility of making the comment).


    HAHAHA - this is starting to annoy me - "ripped to shreds"? Dude, don’t flatter yourself, and don’t even start to tell me what I MEANT. If you actually bother to READ the post it said:

    "Essentially what you are saying is:"

    I was writing what I understood YOU to be saying, not what I Was saying. That's a fairly simple distinction for you.

    You couldn't rip an argument of mine to shreds with a ****ing chainsaw... so just stop deluding yourself.
    (Original post by wacabac)
    My contention that "Black culture" was mainly limited to african american culture was not odd at all, considering that in this country, our British Black culture is heavily influenced by African American culture; I was simply referring to the Black culture which primarily emanates from our country.


    Considering the LARGE black population from elsewhere, and the great array of black cultures in places like London, though the music and clothing of a certain age group may be heavily INFLUENCED by US culture, that in NO way means that the term "black culture" is even close to synonymous with African American culture.

    (Original post by wacabac)
    White culture DOES NOT have a meaning to a decent number of people, plenty of people on this thread have been confused by the term, I have read articles on the internet saying the phrase is a myth and if the BNP use it, it's basically a disguise for their racism by pretending they are acting in the interests of white people in this country.


    White culture is NOT meaningless as you have accepted - you simply said it was "vague" and nebulous. This is because it includes a large number of different types smaller cultures. But then so does African Culture or black culture. Just because it isn’t used much doesn’t mean anything.

    (Original post by wacabac)
    If "African culture" is a term far more nebulous that "White Culture" then how come it is a term constantly in use? Because it actually means something!!!



    OK answer me this - WHY do you take black culture as meaningful, while white culture is meaningless, even though the latter is no more broad?
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    (Original post by wacabac)
    That doesn't make sense.
    It does, you just have to think about it.

    "White" encompasses a group of peoples with white skin, all from various countries, all with various cultures. So what would the common culture be in this "white" society or would all cultures be celebrated in one big mix? "White culture" isn't a coined term as it doesn't exist. Black culture is something specific, as is Ukranian culture, Indian culture, Hispanic culture, Mexican culture, Australian and NZ culture, Chinese culture, Dutch culture, Greek culture, Korean culture, Malaysian culture, Singaporean culture, Polish culture, Taiwanese culture, Thai culture, Scandinavian culture, Scottish culture and Caribbean culture. If you insist that "white" culture exists (yet contradict yourself by saying that no race has any particular culture) then define what it is?
    No, you see you're not reading what people are saying, every point in there was actually addressed in my last post.

    There is no culture that is specific to any group of people.

    Blacks can share some white culture, whites can share some black culture, some white culture won't be shared by all whites, and some black culture won't be shared by all black people.

    Yet you demand a specific defenition for white culture, but not for black culture, even though you know that neither defenition exists as a universal.

    So I don't contradict myself at all.

    White culture is culture of a white origin, black culture is a culture of a black origin, but neither is universal to ALL whites, or ALL blacks.

    You are applying one set of rules to one race, but not to another.

    You have demanded several times now for a specific defenition of white culture, claiming because there is nothing specific to every single white person on the planet, that it does not exist.

    That is the criteria you have used, and yet you claim black culture exists, therefore I ask you to produce a defenition of black culture that is universal to every black on the planet.


    I agree not everyone exposed to a particular cultural lifestyle enjoys it, which is why societies are not exclusive to a particular race or nationality group. But what is this white culture you keep mentioning?
    Culture of white origin, what is the black culture you keep mentioning?


    Rap has its roots in Black Culture, and is classified thus as it originates from Black culture
    Exactly, has it's roots in black culture.

    It is not enjoyed by all blacks, is not enjoyed exclusively by blacks, but has it's roots in black culture.

    Classical music, is not enjoyed by all whites, is not enjoyed exclusively by whites, but has it's roots in white culture.

    So how come rap means black culture exists, but classical music doesn't mean white culture exists?

    a specific culture is not classified according to who appreciates or enjoys it, but according to where it originates from, or where it is ingrained.
    Exactly, which is what I said in the post you are actually responding to.

    Therefore the same defenition for white culture exists as black culture.
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    Original question:

    What would happen if people had a white or caucasian society at a university?

    There would be controversy, claims of racism, and people saying there was no justification for the society.

    Proof?

    Read the thread, 5 days, 400 posts.
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    (Original post by wacabac)
    Let me make this point before I go to bed because this is getting ridiculous:

    If Black culture is such an undefined term, why is it used so frequently for something quite specific? I think you are playing dumb, to be honest, just to prolong the agony of this debate. Why do Black (or similarly titled) societies exist if it is such a vague thing? Surely it would be better to have sub-divisions to unite those who are interested in more specific things than just Black culture? But Black culture is specific; if people want to be moreso then they can, but Black culture is a phrase very much in use.

    If "White culture" is such a reasonably specific term, why is it barely ever used, and normally in a context of white supremacy or white domination, thus rendering it unsuitable for a society title? Your diagram proves my point that "white culture" is an incredibly vague term, of no use whatsoever, incorporating many, many completely different cultures (again demonstrated in your diagram)? Why have a society for "white culture" when someone who is interested in French culture may not be interested in German culture? That is why country-specific societies exist, not just a "white" society; a "White" society would serve no purpose whatsoever, or by that logic perhaps you think there should be a Northern Hemisphere Society, or a 0-180 degrees longitude society, or a Human Society? Equally as vague and as useless.
    I want Lawz to properly address this stuff, but he just won't. He simply says "i don't agree" Then uses the fact that the BNP use the term white culture. Well blow me down, i didn't realise that the BNP represented the way society uses the terms "black" or "white"! Even if he believes the terms are used wrongly, and even i think society uses them wrongly, the fact is that is the WAY THEY USE THE WORDS IN GENERAL.i don't care if SOME people, like the BNP, use the word "white" to denote culture. That doesn't prove that the rest of MAINSTREAM society uses the word "white" in this way. For him to play dumb,a nd try to argue that the words, in general, aren't used they way we have said they are is plain ridiculous. Lawz, it may not be right that they are used that way- you are right in saying that there are so many black cultures that to lump them all under one word is wrong- but the fact is, they DO, and you know they do. The debate really has ended.

    And wacabac, you asked why there should be a society for white culture when someone may be interested in French culture, but not German. That i what i want answers for too. But questions like that get ignored. We KNOW that a university society with the name"black society" would mean for the culture that is adopted in the western world- as you say, african-american culture, and british black culture(which are very similar, if not the same). It wouldn't mean a massive umbrella of many many different black cultures- if that was the case, a more specific society would be made.
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    (Original post by cottonmouth)
    you are right in saying that there are so many black cultures that to lump them all under one word is wrong
    Exactly, so there is no more black culture than white culture, or white culture than black culture, but you feel white culture societies should not be allowed because you and Lawz have different deffenitions of the word, even though you can agree with his defenition?

    And wacabac, you asked why there should be a society for white culture when someone may be interested in French culture, but not German. That i what i want answers for too.
    So why should there be a society for black culture, when someone may be interested in Nigerian culture, but not Malian?

    But questions like that get ignored.
    No they don't, you ignore the answers.

    See my post above, it deals exactly with that point, and my post before that dealt exactly with that point.

    How is the question ignored?

    We KNOW that a university society with the name"black society" would mean for the culture that is adopted in the western world- as you say, african-american culture, and british black culture(which are very similar, if not the same).
    For a start that is not correct, as they also include african culture (non-Westernized culture) and for a second thing african-American culture and British black culture are as far apart as white Ductch culture and White culture from Belgium, if not more so.

    There are many British blacks who try to imitate black American culture, but there are also many who have a very distinct different culture.
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    (Original post by Paul Bedford)
    Exactly, so there is no more black culture than white culture, or white culture than black culture, but you feel white culture societies should not be allowed because you and Lawz have different deffenitions of the word, even though you can agree with his defenition?



    So why should there be a society for black culture, when someone may be interested in Nigerian culture, but not Malian?



    No they don't, you ignore the answers.

    See my post above, it deals exactly with that point, and my post before that dealt exactly with that point.

    How is the question ignored?



    For a start that is not correct, as they also include african culture (non-Westernized culture) and for a second thing african-American culture and British black culture are as far apart as white Ductch culture and White culture from Belgium, if not more so.

    There are many British blacks who try to imitate black American culture, but there are also many who have a very distinct different culture.
    I disagree. I think that the societies i talk of at universities follow a more westernised type of black culture. AND in fact, when it gets more specific, groups break of, and you DO get Nigerian socieites, African dance societies, etc. And thats the case. I disagee with your notion that most of the black socieities at universities deal with a million different types of black culture all under one name. And because we cannot agree on that point, there is nothing more tod ebate.
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    (Original post by Paul Bedford)
    Exactly, so there is no more black culture than white culture, or white culture than black culture, but you feel white culture societies should not be allowed because you and Lawz have different deffenitions of the word, even though you can agree with his defenition?



    So why should there be a society for black culture, when someone may be interested in Nigerian culture, but not Malian?



    No they don't, you ignore the answers.

    See my post above, it deals exactly with that point, and my post before that dealt exactly with that point.

    How is the question ignored?



    For a start that is not correct, as they also include african culture (non-Westernized culture) and for a second thing african-American culture and British black culture are as far apart as white Ductch culture and White culture from Belgium, if not more so.

    There are many British blacks who try to imitate black American culture, but there are also many who have a very distinct different culture.
    Dont bother Paul. I give up. I answer the points over and over again, and he says I "ignore" them... it's pointless.

    Their definition of black culuter seems to rock back and forth between one that includes african culture, to one that only includes a slice of black culture that exists in this country which is influenced by the US. Its ridiculous.

    They contend, "I think this is what it means" - and I disagree. I say so - and I get - you are dodging my point. Not at all... the premise is ridiculous, as I have demonstrated over and over.
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    (Original post by Lawz-)
    Dont bother Paul. I give up. I answer the points over and over again, and he says I "ignore" them... it's pointless.

    Their definition of black culuter seems to rock back and forth between one that includes african culture, to one that only includes a slice of black culture that exists in this country which is influenced by the US. Its ridiculous.

    They contend, "I think this is what it means" - and I disagree. I say so - and I get - you are dodging my point. Not at all... the premise is ridiculous, as I have demonstrated over and over.
    An example of ignoring a point. Why have a white culture society when you might like frnch, but not german culture? Ignored.

    But anyway, i think the debate should end here too.

    The fact is, we believe that black socities at universities deal with westernised black culture. Paul, i think african-american culture is very similar to british black culture, we'll have to agree to disagree. I believe that when it gets more specific, the grouips further break down. You dont. Whta more is there to add?
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    (Original post by cottonmouth)
    An example of ignoring a point. Why have a white culture society when you might like frnch, but not german culture? Ignored.
    I ignored an irrelevant point. Wow.

    What if you like both?

    (Original post by cottonmouth)
    The fact is, we believe that black socities at universities deal with westernised black culture.
    Then what do Malians do who join? Many first gen Africans join these societies... and they doint do it to address western culture only.
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    (Original post by Paul Bedford)
    There is no culture that is specific to any group of people.
    So are you saying that Ukranian culture, Indian culture, Hispanic culture, Mexican culture, Australian and NZ culture, Chinese culture, Dutch culture, Greek culture, Korean culture, Malaysian culture, Singaporean culture, Polish culture, Taiwanese culture, Thai culture, Scandinavian culture, Scottish culture and Caribbean culture are meaningless and irrelevant terms?
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    (Original post by wacabac)
    Scandinavian culture,
    Caribbean culture
    To take two examples...

    The first includes Danish, Finnish, Swedish, Norwegian... and then the different cultures within those place...

    Caribbean culture the same.... many different Islands ... Guyanese culture is very different to Hatian.
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    (Original post by Paul Bedford)
    .
    Most of your posts are useless pedanticism that serve no real contribution to the overall points. It's obvious that not everyone in a particular demographic will subscribe to the same cultural values, but that doesn't mean the term culture is useless or has no meaning.

    It's just as obvious that 'black' culture in its British context refers to a specific culture, whereas 'white' does not.
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    (Original post by Laika)
    It's obvious that not everyone in a particular demographic will subscribe to the same cultural values, but that doesn't mean the term culture is useless or has no meaning.
    Sounds like PRECISELY my point.

    (Original post by Laika)
    It's just as obvious that 'black' culture in its British context refers to a specific culture, whereas 'white' does not.
    It is by no means obvious. "Black culture" in London covers a huge number of anglicised groups... from Somalian, to Jamaican to Zambian.
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    (Original post by Lawz-)
    To take two examples...

    The first includes Danish, Finnish, Swedish, Norwegian... and then the different cultures within those place...

    Caribbean culture the same.... many different Islands ... Guyanese culture is very different to Hatian.
    Well I'm sure the various cultures in each group can't be as dissimilar as you make out, or how would such a society exist? Such subcultures as Guyanese and Haitian may have different aspects, but I'm sure, coming from the same region, they have many similar aspects, which is why they have a Caribbean society, to unite those who appreciate its culture.

    See: http://www.ousu.org/main/clubsocs/cult-int

    Down the left hand side is a list of societies which exist at Oxford University. You'll find that "WhiteSoc" or "CaucSoc" isn't there. Hmmm, wonder why?
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    (Original post by wacabac)
    Well I'm sure the various cultures in each group can't be as dissimilar as you make out, or how would such a society exist? Such subcultures as Guyanese and Haitian may have different aspects, but I'm sure, coming from the same region, they have many similar aspects, which is why they have a Caribbean society, to unite those who appreciate its culture.
    So essentially, In YOUR opinion there is a certain arbitrary level of similarity required and these groups meet it but a white group wouldnt?

    (Original post by wacabac)
    Down the left hand side is a list of societies which exist at Oxford University. You'll find that "WhiteSoc" or "CaucSoc" isn't there. Hmmm, wonder why?
    So that proves that it would me meaningless? Hardly.
 
 
 
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