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    (Original post by there's too much love)
    Apart from the fact that medicines are required by law to be tested on animals still. By buying medicines you don't increase the demand for animal testing. It is the legislation that needs to change.

    Where as with meat there is a supply and demand issue where by buying more you produce more demand for meat to be sold and eaten. Nice try, but no.
    I wonder why there is such a large demand for meat? Us savages.

    And I wonder why it's required by law.....I wonder where that 'backward' line of thinking stems from.
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    (Original post by somethingbeautiful)
    I'm a vegetarian.

    This is exactly why I'm not friends with vegans - I really don't want to be associated with this kind of outlook. I've never met such arrogant and self-satisfied people as vegans, they even look down on vegetarians as if we're Satan spawn for eating cheese. Get a grip.

    There are doctors, carers and scientists working on curing diseases and all sorts of altruistic people who aren't vegan or vegetarian - there are plenty of good people who aren't vegan (likewise there are plenty of bad people who aren't vegan) and there are murderers and rapists who are vegetarian and vegan just as there are good people who are vegetarian and vegan.

    Militant vegans are like fundamentalist Christians - just because you think you're morally clean doesn't mean that anyone who doesn't live like you isn't. You're not morally superior because you eat beans and pulses.
    Yeah these people are pretty crazy. He implied he would purposely let me drown earlier lol.
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    (Original post by somethingbeautiful)
    I'm a vegetarian.

    This is exactly why I'm not friends with vegans - I really don't want to be associated with this kind of outlook. I've never met such arrogant and self-satisfied people as vegans, they even look down on vegetarians as if we're Satan spawn for eating cheese. Get a grip.

    There are doctors, carers and scientists working on curing diseases and all sorts of altruistic people who aren't vegan or vegetarian - there are plenty of good people who aren't vegan (likewise there are plenty of bad people who aren't vegan) and there are murderers and rapists who are vegetarian and vegan just as there are good people who are vegetarian and vegan.

    Militant vegans are like fundamentalist Christians - just because you think you're morally clean doesn't mean that anyone who doesn't live like you isn't. You're not morally superior because you eat beans and pulses.
    Just to confirm, you're not friends with any vegans because you like to stereotype?

    And you think that any short comings of a vegetarian diet morally speaking are not allowed to be mentioned? (psst, what happens to the males? What are the consequences of selective breeding? What % of dairy cows suffer from mastitis? What % of dairy cows suffer from lameness? What happens to cows once they don't product enough milk?)
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    (Original post by JD1lla)
    I wonder why there is such a large demand for meat? Us savages.

    And I wonder why it's required by law.....I wonder where that 'backward' line of thinking stems from.
    A lot of people eat a lot of meat.

    A lot of politicians don't understand science and that there's a lot of bias in certain areas of scientific fields. Animal testers have a vested interest in keeping animal testing around. It's kind of their careers.
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    (Original post by there's too much love)
    Just to confirm, you're not friends with any vegans because you like to stereotype?

    And you think that any short comings of a vegetarian diet morally speaking are not allowed to be mentioned? (psst, what happens to the males? What are the consequences of selective breeding? What % of dairy cows suffer from mastitis? What % of dairy cows suffer from lameness? What happens to cows once they don't product enough milk?)
    Do you put the same amount of effort into humanitarian issues? FGM? Feminism? Poverty? Inequality? The effects of war?

    or is it only animal welfare you focus on?
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    (Original post by JD1lla)
    Do you put the same amount of effort into humanitarian issues? FGM? Feminism? Poverty? Inequality? The effects of war?

    or is it only animal welfare you focus on?
    Outspoken feminist who has spent a lot of time at looking at inequality of the 'disabled', trans and gender queer, non-hetero parts of our society, in close contact with a Syrian who I have attempted but failed to get here. Outspoken against our and the US's drone interventions and our presence in Afghanistan and Iraq. Obviously strongly against FGM (and the less serious MGM). Poverty again, yes I'm obviously against, though if we're talking about third world countries that has strong links into veganism.
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    (Original post by there's too much love)
    Just to confirm, you're not friends with any vegans because you like to stereotype?

    And you think that any short comings of a vegetarian diet morally speaking are not allowed to be mentioned? (psst, what happens to the males? What are the consequences of selective breeding? What % of dairy cows suffer from mastitis? What % of dairy cows suffer from lameness? What happens to cows once they don't product enough milk?)
    No, it's not a choice I've made. It was never a case of ''from this point on I'm not going to make any vegan friends''. That would be ludicrous. It's that I've never met one who has proven me wrong - they've all been self-righteous and judgmental, so I've not continued our 'friendships' . Who wants to be friends with someone who looks down on everyone because of what they have on their dinner plate?

    As for your attack of vegetarianism - I chose it for myself, not for anyone else - so I have no reason to defend it to anyone and I don't try to persuade anyone to be one either.

    On that point - Vegetarianism/veganism boils down to your own sense of morality. Nothing on earth is morally wrong. We've created laws based on human moral judgements, but beyond the law, for example, that the murder of other human beings is illegal and punishable, how are you going to prove to me that it's ultimately wrong? That or anything else (including eating meat). There are no such objective principles. Unless you're religious and think they come from God (as in commandments) - but I'm an atheist and don't agree.

    Ultimately, nothing is immoral, it's all in your head. I've taken my personal sense of morality so far (vegetarianism) and you've taken yours so far (veganism) but neither of those are benchmarks for an objective standard of morality because there isn't an objective standard of morality. There is no ultimate objective yardstick of morality. So ultimately, no one is superior or inferior, morally speaking. Vegans looking down on meat eaters is laughable because it's meaningless. They're judging other people by their own personal moral standards - which aren't objective and have no authority or jurisdiction.

    So when I hear vegans and other vegetarians preaching to people it astounds me because they seem to think they're living to the ultimate standard of morality when one doesn't even exist. Either that or they think they've created it - in which case they think they're God and therefore they're insane.
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    (Original post by somethingbeautiful)
    No, it's not a choice I've made. It was never a case of ''from this point on I'm not going to make any vegan friends''. That would be ludicrous. It's that I've never met one who has proven me wrong - they've all been self-righteous and judgmental, so I've not continued our 'friendships' . Who wants to be friends with someone who looks down on everyone because of what they have on their dinner plate?

    As for your attack of vegetarianism - I chose it for myself, not for anyone else - so I have no reason to defend it to anyone and I don't try to persuade anyone to be one either.

    On that point - Vegetarianism/veganism boils down to your own sense of morality. Nothing on earth is morally wrong. We've created laws based on human moral judgements, but beyond the law, for example, that the murder of other human beings is illegal and punishable, how are you going to prove to me that it's ultimately wrong? That or anything else (including eating meat). There are no such objective principles. Unless you're religious and think they come from God (as in commandments) - but I'm an atheist and don't agree.

    Ultimately, nothing is immoral, it's all in your head. I've taken my personal sense of morality so far (vegetarianism) and you've taken yours so far (veganism) but neither of those are benchmarks for an objective standard of morality because there isn't an objective standard of morality. There is no ultimate objective yardstick of morality. So ultimately, no one is superior or inferior, morally speaking. Vegans looking down on meat eaters is laughable because it's meaningless. They're judging other people by their own personal moral standards - which aren't objective and have no authority or jurisdiction.

    So when I hear vegans and other vegetarians preaching to people it astounds me because they seem to think they're living to the ultimate standard of morality when one doesn't even exist. Either that or they think they've created it - in which case they think they're God and therefore they're insane.
    Oh dear, moral nhilist.

    I suppose you have no objection to me TRIGGER WARNING
    Spoiler:
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    doing triggering things such as
    Spoiler:
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    rape, child molestation, torture for the lulz
    then? And your actions surely don't ever reflect that do they.
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    (Original post by there's too much love)
    Oh dear, moral nhilist.

    I suppose you have no objection to me TRIGGER WARNING[spoiler]doing triggering things such as
    Spoiler:
    Show
    rape, child molestation, torture for the lulz
    /spoiler] then? And your actions surely don't ever reflect that do they.
    Just because I find those things repulsive doesn't mean that they're is a law written into the universe which instructs humans not to do those things. Just as there is no law written into the universe to tell us not to eat cows. Or do you have evidence to the contrary that you'd like to share with the rest of the human race?

    Whether I'd like you to refrain from those things and whether there is a universal law not to do those things are different matters.
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    (Original post by somethingbeautiful)
    Just because I find those things repulsive doesn't mean that they're is a law written into the universe which instructs humans not to do those things. Just as there is no law written into the universe to tell us not to eat cows. Or do you have evidence to the contrary that you'd like to share with the rest of the human race?
    Just because morality is derrived from intelligence that doesn't make it less valuable.
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    (Original post by loveleest)
    eating their food isn't very kind.
    Do you and your family enjoy eating similar food? Then thats like me saying to you "You don't love your family if you eat their food."

    But the truth is, you DON'T eat their food because there is enough around for everyone to share

    Same goes here, we might eat the same food as the animals, but thats fine because there's enough for both them and us!


    I know you were trying to be smart, but your argument just makes no sense.
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    (Original post by daydreamer4life)
    Do you and your family enjoy eating similar food? Then thats like me saying to you "You don't love your family if you eat their food."

    But the truth is, you DON'T eat their food because there is enough around for everyone to share

    Same goes here, we might eat the same food as the animals, but thats fine because there's enough for both them and us!


    I know you were trying to be smart, but your argument just makes no sense.
    Prepare to be trolled.
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    (Original post by somethingbeautiful)
    They're judging other people by their own personal moral standards - which aren't objective and have no authority or jurisdiction...So when I hear vegans and other vegetarians preaching to people it astounds me because they seem to think they're living to the ultimate standard of morality when one doesn't even exist.
    Firstly, it is of course good that you're a vegetarian.

    You're also remarkably consistent for a moral subjectivist: most subjectivists still, illogically, contend that some things are morally wrong, but you go so far as to say that murdering other humans isn't morally wrong either.

    I do wonder, though, how you're so certain that objective moral values do not exist. For a strong refutation of this position, I'd recommend the moral philosopher Peter Singer's recent work The Point of View of the Universe.

    Here's why I think objective moral values do exist: Every sentient being aims to minimise its own suffering and maximise the satisfaction of its interests. However, there is no rational justification for anyone to assign more importance to their suffering, or their interests, than to anyone else's: their suffering is no less real when they experience it than when you do. Thus, if we are to aim to minimise our suffering, and maximise the satisfaction of our interests – which it is impossible not to – it logically follows that we are obligated to do the same for others.

    Another way to get there is to recognise that suffering is bad for all sentient beings. As Magnus Vinding puts it: suffering and its inherent badness is a fact about consciousness, and this is not a made-up value statement, anymore than the assertion that the moon exists is a made-up value statement and something we could decide to change. We cannot just decide that suffering is not bad.
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    (Original post by there's too much love)
    Just because morality is derrived from intelligence that doesn't make it less valuable.
    Morality is derived from emotion, not intelligence.
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    (Original post by somethingbeautiful)
    *empty rhetoric*
    Fixed.
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    (Original post by viddy9)
    Firstly, it is of course good that you're a vegetarian.
    You're opinion is irrelevant. I'd say the same if you told me I was an idiot for not eating meat.

    (Original post by viddy9)
    You're also remarkably consistent for a moral subjectivist: most subjectivists still, illogically, contend that some things are morally wrong, but you go so far as to say that murdering other humans isn't morally wrong either.

    I do wonder, though, how you're so certain that objective moral values do not exist. For a strong refutation of this position, I'd recommend the moral philosopher Peter Singer's recent work The Point of View of the Universe.

    Here's why I think objective moral values do exist: Every sentient being aims to minimise its own suffering and maximise the satisfaction of its interests. However, there is no rational justification for anyone to assign more importance to their suffering, or their interests, than to anyone else's: their suffering is no less real when they experience it than when you do.
    Of course there is: self preservation over and above altruism. Every single person on this planet assigns more importance to their own interests and suffering. There are extreme examples which demonstrate the point such as people fleeing disasters and leaving others behind to die in order to save their own lives. But you can see it in your everyday life - people rushing through the street and barging past one another, treading all over each other on the tube, jumping queues etc. People are for themselves before they're for anyone else.

    If you set a building on fire you won't see many people stay inside to burn whilst they hold the hands of people trapped. Everyone values their own life above anyone else's - even their closest loved ones. You put them in a life or death situation and see what they do. Humans, like any animal, fight for their own survival.
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    (Original post by there's too much love)
    Fixed.
    Debate or don't. Don't quote me and waste my time with juvenile sarcasm.
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    (Original post by somethingbeautiful)
    Of course there is: self preservation over and above altruism.
    Why should preserving your own life, say, matter more than the preservation of someone else's life?

    (Original post by somethingbeautiful)
    Every single person on this planet assigns more importance to their own interests and suffering
    That's not the point: the point is, is this logically defensible?

    You've so far failed to provide a logical defence for it, so I would say that my view of objective morality holds.
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    Humen bangs er stupad...
    We don't care what we eat. As long as we don't actually think about what it actually is.

    'Hmm this 'ham' is lovely' *said whilst watching Peppa the pig on TV*
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    (Original post by viddy9)
    Why should preserving your own life, say, matter more than the preservation of someone else's life?
    Because you can't save someone else if you're dead.

    (Original post by viddy9)
    That's not the point: the point is, is this logically defensible?

    You've so far failed to provide a logical defence for it, so I would say that my view of objective morality holds.
    Individuals desire to survive due to their biology. What is the relevance of defending that fact logically? It's a biological fact that biological organisms strive to survive.

    Humans are multicellular organisms composed of many trillions of cells grouped into specialized tissues and organs.
    We are a bag of cells. Cells don't have moral reasoning for wishing to function and survive - they just do.
 
 
 
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