Hey there! Sign in to join this conversationNew here? Join for free
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Jebedee)


    Unjustified killing by police isn't a huge stat when accounting for population size and pales in comparison to the black on black homocide rate. Isn't that a more pressing matter? Unless you believe black people are not worthy of personal responsibility.
    Eugh i promised myself i wpuldnt reply anymore. But that my, is the stupidest logic i have ever heard. Doesnt matter because of population size. If i walk up to uou rigfht now and kill thats still murder despite the fact that i would be an anomalpous murderer. And why does it have to be looked at in comparison to bnlack on black crime? The police are there to "serve and protect" allegedly and people are calling them out for it. I could just as well say "the numbers of black people being killed by police pales in comparison to people killed in car accidents". Why is it so hard for you people to realise that the police killing people is awful and corrupt. Why do you have to spend hours justofying the death of black people?
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by SophieBarlow87)
    Eugh i promised myself i wpuldnt reply anymore. But that my, is the stupidest logic i have ever heard. Doesnt matter because of population size. If i walk up to uou rigfht now and kill thats still murder despite the fact that i would be an anomalpous murderer. And why does it have to be looked at in comparison to bnlack on black crime? The police are there to "serve and protect" allegedly and people are calling them out for it. I could just as well say "the numbers of black people being killed by police pales in comparison to people killed in car accidents". Why is it so hard for you people to realise that the police killing people is awful and corrupt. Why do you have to spend hours justofying the death of black people?
    Look. When we're talking about a situation that affects a country as a whole. Talking about individual cases and anecdotal evidence doesn't clear anything up. Every country in the world has homocide rates, infant mortality rates, suicide rates...etc. No country in the world ever expects these to reach zero, it is an impossible task.

    The higher homocide rates in US compared to other countries are clearly a gun control issue. Higher general homocide rates always results in a higher police brutality rate.

    So basically your complaint can only be one of two things:

    That the police brutality rate is more the zero, which is an unrealistic expectation.

    Or that the police brutality rate concerning black victims is high, which also doesn't make sense as the police brutality rate for white victims is double that of black victims. Making that argument either a sign that you have a belief in black supremacy or that you simply don't know how to follow statistics.

    Which one is it?
    Offline

    17
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Wired_1800)
    You can also argue that women fighting for better conditions via women's rights should label it as "Women Empowerment too"; after all some men are not empowered. Or Gay Pride should be labelled as "Gay rights too" because not all members outside the LGBT community have sufficient rights.
    Not at all. It is like one saying "Older people deserve respect." Now many people will reply back saying that this is ageist and that really all people, regardless of age, deserve respect. Its wording leads to such problems. If however someone said "Older people deserve respect too", it is clear that whilst calling for respect to be shown to elder people, it is at the same time not denying others deserve respect too and nobody could make an argument of ageism here.

    And having done a quick google, I am not the only person who has spotted this issue, and there are many more results other than this one.
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/harvey...b_8316882.html

    If people of the Black Lives Matter movement want to keep constantly arguing over semantics and don't move beyond debating over the issue of whether "all lives matter", then surely no progress can be made? The statement "all lives matter" would be nonsensical if instead the movement called itself "black lives matter too" and we wouldn't be having this tangential discussion.
    • Political Ambassador
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    Political Ambassador
    (Original post by The Epicurean)
    Not at all. It is like one saying "Older people deserve respect." Now many people will reply back saying that this is ageist and that really all people, regardless of age, deserve respect. Its wording leads to such problems. If however someone said "Older people deserve respect too", it is clear that whilst calling for respect to be shown to elder people, it is at the same time not denying others deserve respect too and nobody could make an argument of ageism here.

    And having done a quick google, I am not the only person who has spotted this issue, and there are many more results other than this one.
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/harvey...b_8316882.html

    If people of the Black Lives Matter movement want to keep constantly arguing over semantics and don't move beyond debating over the issue of whether "all lives matter", then surely no progress can be made? The statement "all lives matter" would be nonsensical if instead the movement called itself "black lives matter too" and we wouldn't be having this tangential discussion.
    I think it is ridiculous for people to look for semantic faults to justify the reason for not supporting a movement.

    I watched a short clip on TV, where one man said that if the black lives matter campaigners chose another name e.g. All Live Matter, it will still be debated. His conclusion was that no matter how much you try to satisfy some people, their racism or bigotry will overwhelm them and cloud their judgment.

    This is not a black vs white debate. Even if it was a nameless movement or a "I can't breathe" movement, people will still look for fault.
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    Oyinbo people complaining lol, tragic
    Offline

    17
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Wired_1800)
    I think it is ridiculous for people to look for semantic faults to justify the reason for not supporting a movement.

    I watched a short clip on TV, where one man said that if the black lives matter campaigners chose another name e.g. All Live Matter, it will still be debated. His conclusion was that no matter how much you try to satisfy some people, their racism or bigotry will overwhelm them and cloud their judgment.

    This is not a black vs white debate. Even if it was a nameless movement or a "I can't breathe" movement, people will still look for fault.
    Semantic faults cause misunderstanding, and thus require explanation. For example, on the website blacklivesmatter.com, it says:

    The statement “black lives matter” is not an anti-white proposition. Contained within the statement is an unspoken but implied “too,” as in “black lives matter, too,” which suggests that the statement is one of inclusion rather than exclusion
    The fact that the statement requires explanation shows that there is an issue of semantics at play.


    Sure, people will find fault with everything. For example, you find fault with my argument. That is expected in life, there will always be someone who will find fault. But the counterargument and counter-movement of "all lives matter" would not exist, as it would be nonsensical in respect to the statement "black lives matter too". The whole issue of all lives matter has arisen over a small semantic issue that could easily be corrected, as opposed to constantly explaining that the statement has an unspoken but implied 'too'. But if people wish to spend their time on twitter and TSR constantly debating over the semantic issues and not getting past stage one, then so be it, but I think it highly unproductive that every debate must entail the same semantic issue over whether all live matter or not.
    • Political Ambassador
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    Political Ambassador
    (Original post by The Epicurean)
    Semantic faults cause misunderstanding, and thus require explanation. For example, on the website blacklivesmatter.com, it says:

    The fact that the statement requires explanation shows that there is an issue of semantics at play.

    Sure, people will find fault with everything. For example, you find fault with my argument. That is expected in life, there will always be someone who will find fault. But the counterargument and counter-movement of "all lives matter" would not exist, as it would be nonsensical in respect to the statement "black lives matter too". The whole issue of all lives matter has arisen over a small semantic issue that could easily be corrected, as opposed to constantly explaining that the statement has an unspoken but implied 'too'. But if people wish to spend their time on twitter and TSR constantly debating over the semantic issues and not getting past stage one, then so be it, but I think it highly unproductive that every debate must entail the same semantic issue over whether all live matter or not.
    Thank you for your response. You have hit the nail on the head.

    This has been my argument all along. Many people, whether on social network sites or in the media or wherever, have reduced the movement to a semantic issue. After relentlessly arguing on statistics and realizing that innocent unarmed black people dying in the hands of Police Officers, whether one or 1000, is indeed shocking, they then switch to ridiculous arguments like naming or change in wording.

    Even before this movement started, some people had trouble understanding why there should be some worry about unarmed black people being killed by a Police Officer. Someone has even told me to my face that, "No offence and I am not racist, but the black guy who was killed by the Police Officer probably deserved it."

    I think that the #BLM became a widespread campaign internationally, increased awareness and caused outrage. This is the reason for the response and reaction. Like I wrote before, even during the Civil Rights movement, small protests and campaigns were largely ignored until the big ones such as Martin Luther King's speech increased awareness.

    In every movement, we see different characters contributing to the overall story. Rosa Parks gave her resistance to the campaign, Malcolm X encouraged a radical approach to race relations while Martin Luther King encouraged dialogue. It does not mean that one part overshadowed the entire movement.
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Jebedee)
    Look. When we're talking about a situation that affects a country as a whole. Talking about individual cases and anecdotal evidence doesn't clear anything up. Every country in the world has homocide rates, infant mortality rates, suicide rates...etc. No country in the world ever expects these to reach zero, it is an impossible task.

    The higher homocide rates in US compared to other countries are clearly a gun control issue. Higher general homocide rates always results in a higher police brutality rate.

    So basically your complaint can only be one of two things:

    That the police brutality rate is more the zero, which is an unrealistic expectation.

    Or that the police brutality rate concerning black victims is high, which also doesn't make sense as the police brutality rate for white victims is double that of black victims. Making that argument either a sign that you have a belief in black supremacy or that you simply don't know how to follow statistics.

    Which one is it?
    First of all, although its true, i didnt bring the police being racist into our discussion you did thaty. Ive been talking about the rates of police brutality generally, so dont start with a little "white people are so hard done to, a black person was mean to me once" routine because i have no patience for that bull****.
    I personally believe that the us police forced are far too trigger happy, theyre brutal and violent in situations where they have no reason to be, and something should be done about that.
    And yes, we can never expect these homicide rates to reach zero. But we still try to prevent it as much as possible, whereas you seem to be suggesting that because there will always be some police brutality we should make zero efforts to try and minimise it.
    (Sidenote, yes more white people are killed than black people, but black people are twice as likely to be unarmed than white people are.)
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    Police can lie and say they had a gun pointed at them to justify shooting theman and I'd be lying if I said this never happens.

    But we hear too often of the dindonuffin innocent Black baby (usually an adult) who was gunned down by evil police.

    So what I'm saying is both sides are wrong in their own way for wanting to think the worst of eachother.
    Offline

    1
    ReputationRep:
    The fact that there is a 21 page argument on Black Lives Matter, which stands for the freedom and justice for innocent black people who were mistreated, abused or even killed, it shows how necessary it really is. It is either people who are misinformed or simply racist (as it often is on TSR).

    People deny the necessity for it and yet there are stats that support the cause. Its is often then countered with 'blacks are more violent so that's why they are killed more', which is absolutely ridiculous and simplifies the whole issue. Looking blindly at stats and concluding from it just shows how simple minded people are.
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by SophieBarlow87)
    First of all, although its true, i didnt bring the police being racist into our discussion you did thaty. Ive been talking about the rates of police brutality generally, so dont start with a little "white people are so hard done to, a black person was mean to me once" routine because i have no patience for that bull****.
    I personally believe that the us police forced are far too trigger happy, theyre brutal and violent in situations where they have no reason to be, and something should be done about that.
    And yes, we can never expect these homicide rates to reach zero. But we still try to prevent it as much as possible, whereas you seem to be suggesting that because there will always be some police brutality we should make zero efforts to try and minimise it.
    (Sidenote, yes more white people are killed than black people, but black people are twice as likely to be unarmed than white people are.)
    I'm not saying white people are hard done by, I'm saying overall black people in terms of police brutality ARE NOT hard done by in comparison. Ergo, to claim that police brutality against black people is something we need to concentrate on but not overall police brutality or brutality towards another race with a higher stat. Is racist as you are saying one group is more deserving than another in spite of the numbers.

    Also to note that blacks are 25x more likely to kill than white people. It would be extremely naive to assume this does not warrant more vigilance in policing? It makes the policing of black areas more dangerous and cops have to use more force to ensure their own safety. You always hear about these so called black spokespeople claiming black people are "gunned down for having a brake light out" but we both know that is a complete lie. When you are pulled over, it pays to be respectful and stick to "yes sir, no sir". Don't start shouting, throwing your arms about or lunging for his gun or he will be completely justified in blowing your head off in response.

    Police do a very dangerous and thankless job and have to make life or death decisions. For that they should be granted a modicum of respect when dealing with them. Since these professional whiners have been demonising the police and spreading their vitriol. Police fatalities has increase sharply.

    This whole thing is centred around places like Ferguson and Chicago but the majority of the people in the police department and above are black, so who exactly is this protest aimed at and what does it aim to achieve? Apart from killing all white people like the co-founder has stated.
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Jebedee)
    I'm not saying white people are hard done by, I'm saying overall black people in terms of police brutality ARE NOT hard done by in comparison. Ergo, to claim that police brutality against black people is something we need to concentrate on but not overall police brutality or brutality towards another race with a higher stat. Is racist as you are saying one group is more deserving than another in spite of the numbers.

    Also to note that blacks are 25x more likely to kill than white people. It would be extremely naive to assume this does not warrant more vigilance in policing? It makes the policing of black areas more dangerous and cops have to use more force to ensure their own safety. You always hear about these so called black spokespeople claiming black people are "gunned down for having a brake light out" but we both know that is a complete lie. When you are pulled over, it pays to be respectful and stick to "yes sir, no sir". Don't start shouting, throwing your arms about or lunging for his gun or he will be completely justified in blowing your head off in response.

    Police do a very dangerous and thankless job and have to make life or death decisions. For that they should be granted a modicum of respect when dealing with them. Since these professional whiners have been demonising the police and spreading their vitriol. Police fatalities has increase sharply.

    This whole thing is centred around places like Ferguson and Chicago but the majority of the people in the police department and above are black, so who exactly is this protest aimed at and what does it aim to achieve? Apart from killing all white people like the co-founder has stated.
    Wow. I made one comment on the amount black people are killed by the police and you just ran with that one. Again, although the thread was specifically directed towards the blm movement, i was merely talking about general police brutality. Modicum of respect does not mean allow them to brutalise people without consequence.
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by SophieBarlow87)
    Wow. I made one comment on the amount black people are killed by the police and you just ran with that one. Again, although the thread was specifically directed towards the blm movement, i was merely talking about general police brutality. Modicum of respect does not mean allow them to brutalise people without consequence.
    They aren't. The cases quotes by BLM are ones where the killing was justified so I guess they don't have much better. Why should we punish cops for a justified kill?
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Jebedee)
    They aren't. The cases quotes by BLM are ones where the killing was justified so I guess they don't have much better. Why should we punish cops for a justified kill?
    Was it really justified though? Was it justified to kill a twelve year old with a bb gun, was it justified to kill sandra bland who had a parking violation (and who was forced out of her car fyi,, then tasered so i dont think you can say she was assaulting them) was it justified to kill a man in walmart holding a toy gun (IN THE TOY GUN SECTION) was it justified to turn up at that swimming pool and reag rhat fourteen year old around was any of that really justified?
    Either way we are going to have to agree to disagree because im never going to believe that the police force is just ands doesnf need any reform, youre never going to believe that killing these people wasnt ok.
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by SophieBarlow87)
    Was it really justified though? Was it justified to kill a twelve year old with a bb gun, was it justified to kill sandra bland who had a parking violation (and who was forced out of her car fyi,, then tasered so i dont think you can say she was assaulting them) was it justified to kill a man in walmart holding a toy gun (IN THE TOY GUN SECTION) was it justified to turn up at that swimming pool and reag rhat fourteen year old around was any of that really justified?
    Either way we are going to have to agree to disagree because im never going to believe that the police force is just ands doesnf need any reform, youre never going to believe that killing these people wasnt ok.
    If you're talking about the case I think you are, the BB gun was missing the bright orange part on the end which lets people know it isn't a real gun. Also a black person made the original 911 call saying a kid is carrying a gun. It is unfortunate but it could have been a real gun and I don't think it is fair to expect a cop to take a risk that puts himself and others in danger.

    I'll have to look up the other examples but either way. You're bringing up anecdotal evidence. With hundreds of cases to choose from, anyone can dredge up one or two which support their narrative but that doesn't make it true. No one is saying that cops don't make mistakes, or that racist cops don't exist. But I'm still wondering why you feel black lives are more important than white lives in this matter?

    Can you name any white men which have been shot and killed by police from the top of your head? I'm going to say no.
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Jebedee)
    If you're talking about the case I think you are, the BB gun was missing the bright orange part on the end which lets people know it isn't a real gun. Also a black person made the original 911 call saying a kid is carrying a gun. It is unfortunate but it could have been a real gun and I don't think it is fair to expect a cop to take a risk that puts himself and others in danger.

    I'll have to look up the other examples but either way. You're bringing up anecdotal evidence. With hundreds of cases to choose from, anyone can dredge up one or two which support their narrative but that doesn't make it true. No one is saying that cops don't make mistakes, or that racist cops don't exist. But I'm still wondering why you feel black lives are more important than white lives in this matter?

    Can you name any white men which have been shot and killed by police from the top of your head? I'm going to say no.
    Don't you know cops lives don't matter.
    They don't want cops to have the same rights to defend themselves as the public.
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Jebedee)
    If you're talking about the case I think you are, the BB gun was missing the bright orange part on the end which lets people know it isn't a real gun. Also a black person made the original 911 call saying a kid is carrying a gun. It is unfortunate but it could have been a real gun and I don't think it is fair to expect a cop to take a risk that puts himself and others in danger.

    I'll have to look up the other examples but either way. You're bringing up anecdotal evidence. With hundreds of cases to choose from, anyone can dredge up one or two which support their narrative but that doesn't make it true. No one is saying that cops don't make mistakes, or that racist cops don't exist. But I'm still wondering why you feel black lives are more important than white lives in this matter?

    Can you name any white men which have been shot and killed by police from the top of your head? I'm going to say no.
    Once more i am going to remind you that my entire narrative here is to say that i am against police brutality generally but it is also true that while yes more white people are killed by the police but at the same time black people are twice as likely to be shot if they are unarmed.
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by SophieBarlow87)
    Once more i am going to remind you that my entire narrative here is to say that i am against police brutality generally but it is also true that while yes more white people are killed by the police but at the same time black people are twice as likely to be shot if they are unarmed.
    This is clearly down to situation elevation. Like I said, "yes sir and no sir" go a long way when you get pulled over. If you genuinely think these men are just getting pulled over and shot for nothing then you're insane. While black men may be seven times more likely to be shot unarmed, we can look at the fact they are 25x more likely to kill than white people and conclude that they are seven times more likely to behave improperly when a cop is speaking to them.

    The majority of these killings were justified so are you saying the stats on unjustified killing of black men is false? OR that unjustified killing of black men does not exist?
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Jebedee)
    This is clearly down to situation elevation. Like I said, "yes sir and no sir" go a long way when you get pulled over. If you genuinely think these men are just getting pulled over and shot for nothing then you're insane. While black men may be seven times more likely to be shot unarmed, we can look at the fact they are 25x more likely to kill than white people and conclude that they are seven times more likely to behave improperly when a cop is speaking to them.

    The majority of these killings were justified so are you saying the stats on unjustified killing of black men is false? OR that unjustified killing of black men does not exist?
    I dont believe killing peopleis justified even when someone has comitted the terrible crim!e of being black I cant believe i have to say that in 2016.
    Offline

    14
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by SophieBarlow87)
    I dont believe killing peopleis justified even when someone has comitted the terrible crim!e of being black I cant believe i have to say that in 2016.
    People like you are part of the problem. Enough brains to scrape a post together but not enough to analyse simple concepts.

    Let's say you are a cop, you pull over a car because the brake light is out. You ask the driver (who happens to be black) to get out of the vehicle and he is visibly angry, refuses to cooperate and attacks you while making a lunge at your weapon. The man is a lot bigger than you so you fire and he dies. This is an example of a justified killing. He isn't being killed because he is black, he is being killed because he poses an immediate threat regardless of the colour of his skin.

    So again, is your argument that the stats are false? Or that black people's lives matter more than white people?
 
 
 
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • Poll
    Brussels sprouts
    Useful resources
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

    Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

    Quick reply
    Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.