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    (Original post by jam277)
    Speaking of that, is there a confed cup thread? Tahiti were absolutely destroyed.
    There is indeed
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    (Original post by manchesterunited15)
    First of all it would be 20/1, not 1/20. Second of all, "without taking into account the ability of teams", that's clearly ridiculous. Are you saying winning the league is nothing to do with footballing ability?
    You realise that some people use this thing called maths, where 1/20 = 0.05, 5%, and 20/1 means 20, or 2000%? If you're going to be pendantic for absolutely no reason when it's obvious what he meant you could at least bother to be right...
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    (Original post by 419)
    Okay, lets leave this palaver there. Don't think Abi will appreciate it and it's really pointless talk.
    :ditto:


    (Original post by lollipopsftw)
    If Wenger gets Payet from Lille and Higuain that would be brilliant.
    I was really looking forward to benteke or jovetic but that's highly unlikely now
    Anyone think that Wenger may sign a gk and if so, which one?

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    Have you seen Payet play much? I've heard fairly good things about him since ~2009 and I know Everton (or maybe it was Tottenham?) wanted to sign him at some point (I think it was just before he moved from St Etienne to Lille). Not seen him a great deal, though.

    I'm not so convinced that Wenger's seriously in for a new keeper, but I suppose the events of last season plus the stories coming out that Wenger wanted both Cesar and Lloris at some point suggests that his faith in Szczesny isn't as strong as was generally thought. If we do go for a new keeper, Cesar seems to be the likeliest candidate at the moment. :dontknow:

    (Original post by jam277)
    I'm not being serious with the first 5 games comment however I do see you out of the title race by december, no matter what the fixture list is. I think you'll push for the title in the 14/15 season, but lets be honest, the squad right now isn't good enough and if you were to buy quality players this summer that would improve the team, they'd need time to settle in(see chelsea and man city's transitions) and if you kept this current squad take it this way, as a chelsea fan I'd take 2 of your players tops to improve the first 11(wilshere+cazorla). A united fan would take around 3 of your players(2 wingers of their liking and wilshere) and city would take pretty much none of your players to improve their first 11. That's why I don't think you'll win the title, because as of now you're easily the 4th strongest team in the league, nothing more nothing less.



    I'm predicting tottenham to be 10 points above you by february...
    But in all seriousness. You really think chelsea and city will be unpredictable? Pellegrini has improved every club he's been at with cash or without cash, same for mourinho, do you really think they'll both systematically have a blip at the same time and arsenal will pounce on it. I think fergie probably gives united 5-10 points extra a season, however this season they had the title wrapped up pretty early, have a young team with many quality players. I think you could get above them but that's still unlikely, van persie will manage to dig them out of holes if needed and it's not like united aren't going to spend this summer on quality players.

    Plus anyway the reason united won so much was also because they had a very big squad with backup players of a slightly lower level to the first team, so were never in the biggest injury crisis. I think moyes realises that already.
    I would say fourth would be the likeliest result as well, but I'm not sure it'll be quite as bad as you predict. :p: Given that we're finally going to have a season without (hopefully without) a major overhaul of the team, I think the effect of one or two new players being brought in is going to be greatly mitigated. There's also the consistent history of Wenger getting more out of his teams than the sum of their parts, etc And I do think you're underrating Koscielny a bit, I think he'd slot in very well next to any of Kompany, Luiz or Vidic (which isn't to say he'd be a good signing for those clubs - the Manchester clubs in particular obviously have very promising young players who will likely take up the mantle - but I think it could be argued that he's at least at the same level of their current options).

    At this point in time, I'd say if we are out of the race by December, it'll probably be more because a team is running away with the title than because we're playing rubbish. But really, it's far too early to be making any of these calls. :dontknow:
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    Since the top 3 teams will all have new managers, Arsenal have an outside chance of taking the title, if they step from the very beginning. No matter the managers credentials, it takes time for them to settle, even with a good team from the start. The 70 million they have in the bank can make that possible.
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    (Original post by Abiraleft)
    I would say fourth would be the likeliest result as well, but I'm not sure it'll be quite as bad as you predict. :p: Given that we're finally going to have a season without (hopefully without) a major overhaul of the team, I think the effect of one or two new players being brought in is going to be greatly mitigated. There's also the consistent history of Wenger getting more out of his teams than the sum of their parts, etc And I do think you're underrating Koscielny a bit, I think he'd slot in very well next to any of Kompany, Luiz or Vidic (which isn't to say he'd be a good signing for those clubs - the Manchester clubs in particular obviously have very promising young players who will likely take up the mantle - but I think it could be argued that he's at least at the same level of their current options).

    At this point in time, I'd say if we are out of the race by December, it'll probably be more because a team is running away with the title than because we're playing rubbish. But really, it's far too early to be making any of these calls. :dontknow:
    I guess so. Kosc will slot in well, but I still don't think you're ready for the title yet. I don't think wenger ever gets more out of his teams. That's an alex ferguson trait, not a wenger trait. What he's able to do is get quality players for cheap and build a team very well if given the freedom to do so. I don't think there's a single manager able to do it as well as wenger. Only person who seems good at that atm bar him is klopp.

    What he's clearly not able to do is get the best out of his team.
    Spoiler:
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    the 10-11 season was a clear testament to that. How a team can get knocked out of 4 competitions in 3 weeks is beyond me. Barcelona was unlucky, but the rest were pathetic. You lost to a team that got relegated in a cup final, that's more than a sackable offence if it wasn't wenger(see man city) and you lost to a team who started 7 defenders and got destroyed by 19 year old twin brothers playing out of position. And I remember when you guys couldn't even defend a set piece, RVP was starting his streak that half of the season. I remember the bolton match e.g. the 2-1 http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/foot...em/9462367.stm

    If being trophyless for 8 seasons, when for 4-5 of the 8 seasons they either had a squad strong enough to win the title or were in a winning position at a late stage of the season is an example of him getting the best out of the players then I'd agree, but it clearly isn't. I'm not even trying to wum arsenal, but surely losing to bradford and blackburn in cup ties is not an example of a man getting the best out of his players...
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    (Original post by Dan1607)
    Since the top 3 teams will all have new managers, Arsenal have an outside chance of taking the title, if they step from the very beginning. No matter the managers credentials, it takes time for them to settle, even with a good team from the start. The 70 million they have in the bank can make that possible.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004%E2...ea_F.C._season
    Go down to the matches section and try to seriously tell me what you said in bold is true.
    I know I sound like a fanboy, but this is the clearest example as to why you're wrong here. I would have used arsenal's 97-98 season but they only hit a run of form in the second half of the season.

    There's also guardiola at barca, pellegrini at madrid(96 points although barca got 99) and more examples in history.
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    (Original post by jam277)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004%E2...ea_F.C._season
    Go down to the matches section and try to seriously tell me what you said in bold is true.
    I know I sound like a fanboy, but this is the clearest example as to why you're wrong here. I would have used arsenal's 97-98 season but they only hit a run of form in the second half of the season.

    There's also guardiola at barca, pellegrini at madrid(96 points although barca got 99) and more examples in history.
    It is still generally true, common sense really.
    I expect Mourinho to win the league the season after the coming one.
    This coming season however, I think is open between the top 4. Arsenal are perhaps the least likely but can better there chances by making good signings.
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    (Original post by jam277)
    I guess so. Kosc will slot in well, but I still don't think you're ready for the title yet. I don't think wenger ever gets more out of his teams. That's an alex ferguson trait, not a wenger trait. What he's able to do is get quality players for cheap and build a team very well if given the freedom to do so. I don't think there's a single manager able to do it as well as wenger. Only person who seems good at that atm bar him is klopp.

    What he's clearly not able to do is get the best out of his team.
    Spoiler:
    Show
    the 10-11 season was a clear testament to that. How a team can get knocked out of 4 competitions in 3 weeks is beyond me. Barcelona was unlucky, but the rest were pathetic. You lost to a team that got relegated in a cup final, that's more than a sackable offence if it wasn't wenger(see man city) and you lost to a team who started 7 defenders and got destroyed by 19 year old twin brothers playing out of position. And I remember when you guys couldn't even defend a set piece, RVP was starting his streak that half of the season. I remember the bolton match e.g. the 2-1 http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/foot...em/9462367.stm

    If being trophyless for 8 seasons, when for 4-5 of the 8 seasons they either had a squad strong enough to win the title or were in a winning position at a late stage of the season is an example of him getting the best out of the players then I'd agree, but it clearly isn't. I'm not even trying to wum arsenal, but surely losing to bradford and blackburn in cup ties is not an example of a man getting the best out of his players...
    To be honest, I'd say that team looked like a title-contending one because of Wenger, not despite him. I understand what you're saying and perhaps the difference is that you're talking about a manager getting the best mentality out of a team; I'm talking more in terms of strategy. Look at the players we had in the team in the period you've mentioned; we had gems like Fabregas and van Persie, sure, but we had Adebayor, who I genuinely believe was never that special a striker, scoring 30 goals for us in a season; we had Hleb dazzling everyone, something he couldn't replicate at Barcelona or even Birmingham; we had a centre-back pairing that clearly didn't work, we had Denilson playing for us a lot of the time and still getting past teams.

    Thinking about it, Wenger seems to rely more on strong characters for his teams' morale than his own pep talks (this is largely conjecture, I obviously don't know what happens in the dressing room). I think he's more of a general strategist than anything, and that's a role he's historically performed very well imo. I'd say the last two seasons are even greater testament to that than the preceding years: how many times have we had player-to-player comparisons with everyone claiming Spurs now have a better team than us?
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    (Original post by Abiraleft)
    To be honest, I'd say that team looked like a title-contending one because of Wenger, not despite him. I understand what you're saying and perhaps the difference is that you're talking about a manager getting the best mentality out of a team; I'm talking more in terms of strategy. Look at the players we had in the team in the period you've mentioned; we had gems like Fabregas and van Persie, sure, but we had Adebayor, who I genuinely believe was never that special a striker, scoring 30 goals for us in a season; we had Hleb dazzling everyone, something he couldn't replicate at Barcelona or even Birmingham; we had a centre-back pairing that clearly didn't work, we had Denilson playing for us a lot of the time and still getting past teams.

    Thinking about it, Wenger seems to rely more on strong characters for his teams' morale than his own pep talks (this is largely conjecture, I obviously don't know what happens in the dressing room). I think he's more of a general strategist than anything, and that's a role he's historically performed very well imo. I'd say the last two seasons are even greater testament to that than the preceding years: how many times have we had player-to-player comparisons with everyone claiming Spurs now have a better team than us?
    I think that's the thing, he can't get the best mentality out of a team. Fergie knows this, mourinho(bar his madrid days) does this and klopp at dortmund does this too. I agree that the squad was never amazingly strong enough to win the title as the best squad, saying that however I still believe for 4 seasons you should have challenged better(04-05, 05-06, 07-08 and 10-11)

    He got the squad performing well, but he didn't get them performing well when it counted, what you said still doesn't explain why you've lost to blackburn, bradford and birmingham in recent years with a vastly superior squad, if those sides had such a great mentality they wouldn't be in the championship/league 1 right now... the mentality thing goes two ways I feel.

    Spurs have no depth outside their first 11. the 11-12 season redknapp had a stronger squad and first 11 but didn't rotate so suffered from fatigue, the 12-13 season they had a weaker squad and had to just get the best out of it. If they had kept modric and did these signings under a competent manager they would have come fourth but oh well.

    I think you'll get a higher points total, but I'll say the same for city and chelsea.
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    (Original post by jam277)
    I think that's the thing, he can't get the best mentality out of a team. Fergie knows this, mourinho(bar his madrid days) does this and klopp at dortmund does this too. I agree that the squad was never amazingly strong enough to win the title as the best squad, saying that however I still believe for 4 seasons you should have challenged better(04-05, 05-06, 07-08 and 10-11)

    He got the squad performing well, but he didn't get them performing well when it counted, what you said still doesn't explain why you've lost to blackburn, bradford and birmingham in recent years with a vastly superior squad, if those sides had such a great mentality they wouldn't be in the championship/league 1 right now... the mentality thing goes two ways I feel.

    Spurs have no depth outside their first 11. the 11-12 season redknapp had a stronger squad and first 11 but didn't rotate so suffered from fatigue, the 12-13 season they had a weaker squad and had to just get the best out of it. If they had kept modric and did these signings under a competent manager they would have come fourth but oh well.

    I think you'll get a higher points total, but I'll say the same for city and chelsea.
    Sure, I'm agreeing with you that we won't be title-contenders next season and acknowledging that Wenger often doesn't get the best mentality out of his squad. :p: That was supposed to be implicit in my assertion that Wenger was more a strategist than a man-manager. I'd say that's part of why we've lost to 'smaller' teams in the last couple of seasons, but also substantiated by players who are not the best individually and just bad luck at times (we were dire against Bradford, but Blackburn last season could so easily have been a different result on another day). My point is simply to clarify what I meant when I said Wenger often got more out of his teams than the sum of their parts: you said Arsenal have a weaker team than other top contenders because our players wouldn't get into their teams, but I'm contesting that that needs to be taken with a pinch of salt due to Wenger's ability to get more out of a team than the sum of the ability of the individual players (eg Adebayor, Hleb, Toure, arguably Sagna :holmes). I'm not saying we'll win the title, just that we might not be as far behind as you suggest if things go to plan (big 'if' there, of course).
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    I think that its fair to say that Wenger is not 'planning' to win the title. You can tell that Jose, Moyes and Pellegrini all expect their teams to 'win' the PL. I cant say the same for Wenger
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    (Original post by cost)
    I think that its fair to say that Wenger is not 'planning' to win the title. You can tell that Jose, Moyes and Pellegrini all expect their teams to 'win' the PL. I cant say the same for Wenger
    Why do you think that? From his interviews and general reactions to things, I think it's quite clear that Wenger has a huge level of belief in this team, and he's clearly looking to improve it. What do you think he's planning for if not to win?

    On a separate note, Sanogo had an interview with France Football recently (as reported by Sky), and has been commenting on Arsenal:

    French Ligue 1 side Lille were also linked with Sanogo and he says that it was a straight fight between them and Arsenal for his signature.

    Sanogo added: "I told my agent the choice would be made between these two clubs. Lille's coach Rudi Garcia called me all the time. I hesitated a lot.

    "Gilles Grimandi [Arsenal scout] came to see me from time to time at Auxerre too. One day he called me for a meeting in a Paris hotel and Arsene Wenger was there. I was very impressed."

    And it was during that meeting that Sanogo made his decision to join the North London club.

    "Wenger told me I would get opportunities and reassured me about my injury. He told me he had followed me for years. That meeting was very important and today I am an Arsenal player," said Sanogo.

    "It will be an amazing adventure. I am just eager to start in one of the best leagues in the world. It is a dream that has come true."
    Sounds like Wenger really rates this guy, then! :cute: His injury also sounds a lot worse than what I'd previously thought, though.
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    (Original post by Abiraleft)

    Sounds like Wenger really rates this guy, then! :cute: His injury also sounds a lot worse than what I'd previously thought, though.
    http://metro.co.uk/2013/05/17/who-is...anogo-3783390/

    Sanogo has been plagued with injury problems over the past few years and for a player of his age, that will always be a concern.

    First, he suffered a double fracture in his leg and while that could happen to anyone, the main concern will surround the complications upon his return to fitness. Sanogo has also struggled with muscle injuries and for a player who relies on strength and speed, the Arsenal medical team may have their work cut out.

    His appearance tally of just 24 outings in four seasons certainly sets alarm bells ringing.
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    (Original post by Arturo Bandini)
    http://metro.co.uk/2013/05/17/who-is...anogo-3783390/

    Sanogo has been plagued with injury problems over the past few years and for a player of his age, that will always be a concern.

    First, he suffered a double fracture in his leg and while that could happen to anyone, the main concern will surround the complications upon his return to fitness. Sanogo has also struggled with muscle injuries and for a player who relies on strength and speed, the Arsenal medical team may have their work cut out.

    His appearance tally of just 24 outings in four seasons certainly sets alarm bells ringing.
    I do remember reading that, I just didn't know it was a career-threatening injury. :p: That Metro article sort of glosses over it with 'that could happen to anyone'; Sanogo's account paints a very different picture.
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    (Original post by jam277)
    I'm predicting tottenham to be 10 points above you by february...
    But in all seriousness. You really think chelsea and city will be unpredictable? Pellegrini has improved every club he's been at with cash or without cash, same for mourinho, do you really think they'll both systematically have a blip at the same time and arsenal will pounce on it. I think fergie probably gives united 5-10 points extra a season, however this season they had the title wrapped up pretty early, have a young team with many quality players. I think you could get above them but that's still unlikely, van persie will manage to dig them out of holes if needed and it's not like united aren't going to spend this summer on quality players.

    Plus anyway the reason united won so much was also because they had a very big squad with backup players of a slightly lower level to the first team, so were never in the biggest injury crisis. I think moyes realises that already.
    Can Pellegrini even speak English? What does he think Baines' weakness' are? It takes time to learn English football. Not saying he's a mug, but he's never won a trophy in Europe even with the trillions at Real/Malaga. The La Liga Moyes?

    Mourinho was sacked last time by RA, lets not deny that. I reckon Mourinho could fall out with a priest, so I honestly could see him sacked. Lets not forget the Casillas shambles, so his man management is hit and miss. Unpredictable.

    Fergie gives Utd more than 10. He was the best manager in British history.


    Dont underestimate Wenger. He is a wiley old fox who's managed to pay for the Emirates by spending nothing. Imagine if he gets Higuain(and maybe Fellaini etc) and not losing any of his men. He is the best manager in the EPL now and Arsenal have some quality players like Wilshere, Cazorla, Koscileny. As I say, I dont expect a title but the people writing Wenger off need to realise what's changed for him.

    How have the exams gone fella?
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    I think the chances of us challenging for the title are slim but not impossible. I still think we're a year or two off becoming real contenders again but I think any prediction is made harder by the fact that Chelsea, City and United all have new managers. We'll know a lot more by the end of the summer, if we do actually spend the money the papers say we will and we keep all of our players, especially Koscielny, then I expect us to at least improve on last years performance. I think we'll need to improve, Liverpool are only going to get better and likely Spurs too if they keep Bale, should be a great season.
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    (Original post by L-x)
    You realise that some people use this thing called maths, where 1/20 = 0.05, 5%, and 20/1 means 20, or 2000%? If you're going to be pendantic for absolutely no reason when it's obvious what he meant you could at least bother to be right...
    What the hell are you on about? :lolwut:

    Odds of 20/1 mean if you put on £1 you get £20 back if you're right, which is what he meant as he was saying all teams have an equal chance at the beginning. Odds of 1/20 (what he said) means if you put on £20 you get £1 back which is obviously not right.

    If you're going to correct someone you could at least bother to be right...
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    (Original post by manchesterunited15)
    What the hell are you on about? :lolwut:

    Odds of 20/1 mean if you put on £1 you get £20 back if you're right, which is what he meant as he was saying all teams have an equal chance at the beginning. Odds of 1/20 (what he said) means if you put on £20 you get £1 back which is obviously not right.

    If you're going to correct someone you could at least bother to be right...
    The normal way of writing probability rather than betting odds


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    (Original post by TH3-FL45H)
    The normal way of writing probability rather than betting odds


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    But we were talking about odds
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    If you can't see the link between probability and odds there is truly no hope for you.
 
 
 
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