Is Scottish independence a 'good or bad' thing? Watch

Poll: Should Scotland be an independent country?
YES (299)
32.12%
NO (632)
67.88%
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Moosferatu
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#4241
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#4241
Bet the OP has wrote a PhD on this now.
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Quady
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#4242
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#4242
(Original post by Maths Tutor)
We are talking about the UK BUDGET DEFICIT / TRILLION POUNDS PLUS NATIONAL DEBT which exists NOW.

How much of it has been created by the SNP / Alex Salmond?

Clue:

Recent UK chancellors of the exchequer:

- Gideon Osbourne (Tory)

- Alastair Darling (New Labour)

- Gordon Brown (New Labour)
Actually thats now what we are talking about, thats what you're talking about.

That would make sense if the SNP underspends its block grant to run what would be a neutral budget.

You're against the budget deficit the Coalition is running then? An independent Scotland would be budget neutral/run a surplus?

I have to say I don't rememebr seeing the SNP calling for greater cuts or major tax rises over the last 15 years.

I also don't remember them calling for greater regulation of BoS or RBS before they went belly-up. tbh they were pretty quiet on the idea of subsequent bail out which cost a few pennies.

basically your aguement seems to be that because the SNP hasn't run the UK economy there is nothign to demonstrate they would be bad at running an economy like Scotland if they were able to do so?

The same could be said of the Green Party or Screaming Lord Such.

It seems they can't even guestimate costs for transition, let alone come up with a tax and spend framework for Scotland. Perhaps we'll see in the next month or so but I'd be interested to know the income tax regieme an independent Scotland would run.
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Good bloke
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#4243
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#4243
(Original post by Maths Tutor)
I thought YOU were showing some honesty in this debate but I was mistaken.
I've never been anything else than honest. Are you now going to start calling me a liar and a hypocrite?

When are you going to start answering questions rather than asking questions that lead us nowhere?


No, it is not and I didn't say that. I was talking about Sterling as you very well know
You were talking about sterling in the context of independence., and stated that

it will not make much difference IN THE SHORT TERM AT LEAST if Scotland has to bear the monetary policy of a 'foreign country' without a currency union.
I was merely pointing out that independence is a long term venture and short term measures don't seem very sensible, and certainly not a good basis for the future. What do you propose as Scotland's currency for the long term? The obvious candidates are (a) a Scottish independent currency, (b) the euro (with no Scottish influence worth speaking of) or (c) sterling (again, with no influence). None of these seems very attractive.


A contradiction only arises if you distort what I wrote.

I was talking of the POST INDEPENDENCE situation.

POST INDEPENDENCE, would rUK be in a better currency position if:

a. the whole Scottish economy got out of sterling;

OR

b. the Scottish economy stayed in Sterling with a currency union?
There is no doubt that the UK will not want to handicap a key instrument of its financial policy by giving a foreign country direct influence over sterling. We have avoided the euro for this very reason. I can see no benefit to the UK for an independent Scotland to be given such power.

If an independent Scotland wishes to use sterling it will have to be as a hanger-on with no influence on its value, and with no influence on its effect on Scottish exports and imports.

The Scottish economy will become far too heavily influenced by oil and gas prices for it to remain synchronised with the UK for very long, and far more subject to currency ups and downs. For the BoE to look after the Scottish economy would be folly.

I've always been unclear why anyone in favour of independence would want to use either sterling or the euro, both of which involve less independence rather than more (the one being controlled by a UK with no interest in Scotland's needs, the other by Germany).

On a separate matter, I find it peculiar that no pro-independence poster has come forward to comment on why they think the UK will want its warships to be built abroad after independence. Or how Scotland would have a need to share destroyers, as advocated by the SNP, or how this might work. What need will Scotland have, given the defence budget it will have, for such warships?
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Quady
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#4244
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#4244
(Original post by Good bloke)
Or how Scotland would have a need to share destroyers, as advocated by the SNP, or how this might work. What need will Scotland have, given the defence budget it will have, for such warships?
This is the bizzare one, I thought the idea was Scotland would be more pacifist than the rUK so instruments of war (and expensive ones too) wouldn't be commissioned by an independent Scotland.
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Psyk
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#4245
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(Original post by Quady)
This is the bizzare one, I thought the idea was Scotland would be more pacifist than the rUK so instruments of war (and expensive ones too) wouldn't be commissioned by an independent Scotland.
The SNP seem to be primarily against nuclear weapons specifically. But I have seen some independence supporters complaining about being pulled into "illegal" wars. And if they really care about the ethics of it, it would seem a bit hypocritical if the same people supported Scotland producing weapons for rUK.
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MatureStudent36
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#4246
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#4246
(Original post by Psyk)
The SNP seem to be primarily against nuclear weapons specifically. But I have seen some independence supporters complaining about being pulled into "illegal" wars. And if they really care about the ethics of it, it would seem a bit hypocritical if the same people supported Scotland producing weapons for rUK.

Nobody really knows what the SNP stand for. They seem to be a loose grouping of romantic nationalists and fruit loop left wingers.

A CND poll claims that the majority of Scots don't want trident. Another poll shows that over half of Scots support a replacement for trident.

I don't know what illegal wars that the SNP are on about. No military conflict that the UK has been involved with has been found to be illegal. If there talking about Iraq, Afghanistan or Libya, the SNP need to check which of the numerous nations they claim we should be like have been involved. The Norwegian military for example have been involved in all three.
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Good bloke
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#4247
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The SNP is very keen on talking about Norway. I wonder if it will give the Shetlands and Orkneys an opportunity to reunify with Norway and form an oil and gas mega-empire in the North Sea.
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Quady
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#4248
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#4248
(Original post by Good bloke)
The SNP is very keen on talking about Norway. I wonder if it will give the Shetlands and Orkneys an opportunity to reunify with Norway and form an oil and gas mega-empire in the North Sea.
From a few pages back, thats fine.

But not so much on transition costs or how tying to rUK sterling would make Scotland more independent in monetary policy.
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Quady
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#4249
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(Original post by Psyk)
The SNP seem to be primarily against nuclear weapons specifically. But I have seen some independence supporters complaining about being pulled into "illegal" wars. And if they really care about the ethics of it, it would seem a bit hypocritical if the same people supported Scotland producing weapons for rUK.
Meh that doesn't matter, but without a Scottish order on ships, that'd be funny.
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Creat0r
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#4250
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Timeline of events:

1. Scots watch Braveheart

2. Scots decide they should vote on independence a decade later

3. Scots prepare for battle, escaping the clutches of oppression won't be easy

4. England is fine with them voting for independence

5. English public opinion is one of two things: A. Sure, be independent, or B. Don't care

6. Scots go into a panic, how can they rally people for a patriotic cause when 99% of the English aren't bothered?

7. The patriots realise there are actually lots and lots of Scots who don't want independence

8. Sounds of whimpering and crying, racist slurs against the English who are happy to support their cause, the pathetic speeches trying to convince Scots that independence is better, their only real enemies the ones they need to be nicest to.

9. Scotland votes against independence

10. Lots of people wasted lots of time and energy on a lost cause, the pro-union Scots spent their time raising families, working in their chosen careers and getting on with life. Deep resentment in the patriots as they realise all the time and energy spent has come to nothing, Buckfast sales at an all time high,another patriot drinks himself to death, a wasted life, another drain on the Scottish economy.
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MatureStudent36
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#4251
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It would appear that the SNP have now back tracked on their currency union claim.

http://m.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/scottish-independence-no-currency-union-guarantee-1-3189816
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Good bloke
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#4252
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The key thing to emerge from that is that it appears that the phrase "policy position" means "something on our wish list".
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MatureStudent36
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#4253
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(Original post by Good bloke)
The key thing to emerge from that is that it appears that the phrase "policy position" means "something on our wish list".
I do wish though that policy position wasn't always being portrayed as fact.
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zjs
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#4254
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(Original post by Maths Tutor)
It indicates that liars and hypocrites like YOURSELF, L i b, Midlander, etc. hound pro-Independence posters on this thread by twisting their posts and repeating the same lies over and over again.

L i b has even gone to the extent of getting my legitimate posts removed by TSR anti-Independence censors like Aj12 because they exposed his lies and hypocrisy.

Negative points from the likes of yourself don't mean anything.

I challenge Section Moderator Aj12 to post a list of all negative points given to me indicating which posters have given the negative points.
Shh.
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Hanvyj
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#4255
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#4255
The reason I have for Scotland remaining in the UK is... I kinda like Scotland, I don't want us to split up. We've had such good times together!

It feels like they are deciding whether to dump us.
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Left Hand Drive
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#4256
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(Original post by Creat0r)
Timeline of events:

1. Scots watch Braveheart

2. Scots decide they should vote on independence a decade later

3. Scots prepare for battle, escaping the clutches of oppression won't be easy

4. England is fine with them voting for independence

5. English public opinion is one of two things: A. Sure, be independent, or B. Don't care

6. Scots go into a panic, how can they rally people for a patriotic cause when 99% of the English aren't bothered?

7. The patriots realise there are actually lots and lots of Scots who don't want independence

8. Sounds of whimpering and crying, racist slurs against the English who are happy to support their cause, the pathetic speeches trying to convince Scots that independence is better, their only real enemies the ones they need to be nicest to.

9. Scotland votes against independence

10. Lots of people wasted lots of time and energy on a lost cause, the pro-union Scots spent their time raising families, working in their chosen careers and getting on with life. Deep resentment in the patriots as they realise all the time and energy spent has come to nothing, Buckfast sales at an all time high,another patriot drinks himself to death, a wasted life, another drain on the Scottish economy.

If the English don't care then can we have them stop posting in here?
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Quady
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#4257
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#4257
(Original post by Left Hand Drive)
If the English don't care then can we have them stop posting in here?
Do you happen to know what the 9.3% of revenue that Scotland receives covers? Is it the block grant or what?
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L i b
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#4258
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(Original post by Quady)
Do you happen to know what the 9.3% of revenue that Scotland receives covers? Is it the block grant or what?
It's the Government Expenditure and Revenue in Scotland figures. It includes more than just the block grant. It however excludes things like money in grants from the UK Research Councils awarded to Scottish unis and so forth.

The figure is somewhat misleading as the expenditure is much, much higher than the revenue due to our budget deficit. The Scotland Office produced similar figures for the past 30 years that demonstrated, even despite all of the North Sea oil, the share of debt and so forth, that Scotland has been a net beneficiary in terms of public spending - although not by much. It's also worth noting that Scotland's public spending is about £1,600 more per capita than in England.

Economically, Scotland is pretty much average in the UK if you include North Sea revenue. The things that should concern nationalists is that North Sea oil is an unstable commodity - sometimes accounting for as much as 20% of Scottish revenue: it fluctuates considerably, and is in decline; secondly it provides proportionately fewer jobs than more conventional economic activity. The economic benefits are well felt in Aberdeenshire - which is very wealthy - but hardly do much other than provide tax revenue for the rest of Scotland.
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Quady
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(Original post by L i b)
It's the Government Expenditure and Revenue in Scotland figures. It includes more than just the block grant. It however excludes things like money in grants from the UK Research Councils awarded to Scottish unis and so forth.

The figure is somewhat misleading as the expenditure is much, much higher than the revenue due to our budget deficit. The Scotland Office produced similar figures for the past 30 years that demonstrated, even despite all of the North Sea oil, the share of debt and so forth, that Scotland has been a net beneficiary in terms of public spending - although not by much.

Economically, Scotland is pretty much average in the UK if you include North Sea revenue. The things that should concern nationalists is that North Sea oil is an unstable commodity - sometimes accounting for as much as 20% of Scottish revenue: it fluctuates considerably, and is in decline; secondly it provides proportionately fewer jobs than more conventional economic activity. The economic benefits are well felt in Aberdeenshire - which is very wealthy - but hardly do much other than provide tax revenue for the rest of Scotland.
Yes, I knew its from GERS but have yet to venture into the report to find out what makes up the expenditure.

For example would a proportional amount of the cost of the DVLA be included? The Bank of England, basically do the numbers where the expenditure currently not occur in Scotland get reflected appropriately?
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L i b
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(Original post by Quady)
Yes, I knew its from GERS but have yet to venture into the report to find out what makes up the expenditure.

For example would a proportional amount of the cost of the DVLA be included? The Bank of England, basically do the numbers where the expenditure currently not occur in Scotland get reflected appropriately?
GERS considers two types of expenditure: expenditure which can be seen as spent in Scotland or directly for the benefit of Scotland, and non-identifiable UK expenditure on things like defence, international development, the DVLA and so on. For this, it uses several apportionment mechanisms, which result in about 8% of non-identifiable expenditure being apportioned to Scotland, slightly under our population share within the UK.

I'm no statistician, so I'm not going to sit and pretend that I know if these apportionment strategies are appropriate or not.
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