Is Scottish independence a 'good or bad' thing? Watch

Poll: Should Scotland be an independent country?
YES (299)
32.12%
NO (632)
67.88%
This discussion is closed.
MatureStudent36
Badges: 3
Rep:
?
#4341
Report 5 years ago
#4341
(Original post by DarkWhite)
That's great for nationalist political parties, but for the real people growing up wanting to study at university, I'm not sure it's something they'd appreciate.
Never underestimate how narrow minded and parochial you're average Nat is.
0
FinalMH
Badges: 14
Rep:
?
#4342
Report 5 years ago
#4342
(Original post by LukeWhiting)
One more thing I'd like to address, as I've seen comments on various sites and news articles claiming that the UK is in an unstable financial situation, and so Scotland should leave the Union.

The brutal reality is that, if the UK were to be in serious trouble financially or economically, Scotland would also be in serious trouble, regardless of the level of political unity. The links between our countries will still be huge, so independence would not address that concern.
Scotland is more dependent on the rUK than vice versa.
0
Midlander
Badges: 19
Rep:
?
#4343
Report 5 years ago
#4343
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
That might play into the hands of the SNP. They'd be able to perpetuate the myth that somehow we're ideologically different by discouraging any firm if interaction.
Alex Salmond talks a lot about creating a fairer Scotland. That of course means ripping off RUK students in defiance of EU law, having squirmed into the EU with this intention publicly stated beforehand.
0
Yi-Ge-Ningderen
Badges: 0
Rep:
?
#4344
Report 5 years ago
#4344
The paper released is an absolute joke, Anybody who believes what is in it needs their head examined.
0
MatureStudent36
Badges: 3
Rep:
?
#4345
Report 5 years ago
#4345
(Original post by LukeWhiting)
One more thing I'd like to address, as I've seen comments on various sites and news articles claiming that the UK is in an unstable financial situation, and so Scotland should leave the Union.

The brutal reality is that, if the UK were to be in serious trouble financially or economically, Scotland would also be in serious trouble, regardless of the level of political unity. The links between our countries will still be huge, so independence would not address that concern.
People have been predicting the end of the UKs economy since 1690. There's issues out there, but no worse than we've dealt with in the past, albeit those historical issues have normally had a back drop of world wars.

Did those papers mention that the UK has the fastest growing western economy?
1
MatureStudent36
Badges: 3
Rep:
?
#4346
Report 5 years ago
#4346
(Original post by Yi-Ge-Ningderen)
The paper released is an absolute joke, Anybody who believes what is in it needs their head examined.
Wait until Maths Tutor comes along. We came to that conclusion a few months ago.
0
MatureStudent36
Badges: 3
Rep:
?
#4347
Report 5 years ago
#4347
(Original post by FinalMH)
Scotland is more dependent on the rUK than vice versa.
I think that's slightly unfair. If you take any part of the UK in isolation its dependant on the rUK.
0
Kattt_452
Badges: 0
Rep:
?
#4348
Report 5 years ago
#4348
(Original post by Midlander)
If the Scots take that leap of faith as you say, I will be made a foreigner and, in the eyes of the Scottish Government, officially an outsider. All I have heard from Yes campaigners since the referendum debate first began is how my country has controlled Scotland, oppressed it, conspired against it, and screwed it over-just like evil Longshanks all those centuries ago. Yet, at the same time, these people want to maintain a currency union and act like everything's the same.

But it won't be.
Garbage-anyone who questions the SNP's promises is called a scaremongerer who is belittling Scotland. They are actually doing the opposite-Alex Salmond is selling the Scots a false vision and somebody has to scrutinise it so they don't make a dreadful mistake.

Not true. Perhaps you aren't a 'scaremongerer' - but I do think that many people in England are too far removed from the situation to understand and see what is really going on up here. I would say that lots of people are scaremongerers - I certainly wouldn't say all are. I don't think any politician has ever produced a perfected vision that they followed through on on all accounts. But the SNP have made some promises that they have followed through on so far, and that inspires some confidence.

You're sick of reading about it, I'm sick of experiencing it. Westminster don't run NHS Scotland, they don't dictate the Scottish curriculum and Scotland enjoys more money spent per head on it than other constituents courtesy of the Barnett formula. The Scottish Government enjoys a wealth of autonomy it makes little use of because for now, it doesn't strengthen their agenda to do so.

A strong criticism of Westminister government does not translate to anglophobia. Please don't make that mistake.

Just because the current government does things you disagree with that is no reason at all just to up and leave-that's outright fickle. It doesn't matter, for example, that the present Westminster set-up allowed Scottish MPs to approve tuition fee hikes in England.

Just because? Just? Are you telling me it's okay to brutally murder innocent people and then think it's okay to be 'fickle' when desiring to be set apart from such an inhumane action? It it far from fickle. Peoples lives are far more important than some of the more shallow concerns people have, like "oh no, will we still have a Team GB?!" like was in the BBC News today.


Do you know what else is absurd? Slapping a one-size-fits-all label on Scots by saying the entire SNP campaign is about anglophobia. We are thousands of people with different desires for what we would like to see in an independent country. I'm not saying you have champagne glasses. But I am suggesting that you perhaps haven't experienced/empathised with a level of inequality that would allow you to understand why true change becomes imperative.

Um, well the English screwed us over repeatedly in the past - it isn't a lie made up by Yes campaigners. King Henry VII and several others used to tell Scotland 'Do this or what we'll show you want happens when you don't agree with us". The last thing a referendum would produce is having "everything the same" - you are right in saying there are a few similarities and I think Salmond has put those forward (like keeping the Monarch for example) so he doesn't scare everyone at once.

I'm not quite sure I understand why you'd feel like a foreigner? I heard Alistair Carmichael saying something to that effect the other day "If Scotland becomes a foreign country, we'll treat it like one." Honestly, what the...

Look, Midlander, when it comes down to it Westminister is a mess, a mess that is adversely affecting both Scotland and England. We want the chance to break free and for me at least, that is not rooted in any kind of dislike of English people or annoyances about the past. I am very much interested in the present and future; I just wish some people could be more open-minded about the reasons why we have felt the need to take this step.
0
Midlander
Badges: 19
Rep:
?
#4349
Report 5 years ago
#4349
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
That's one of the many assumptions they've made as fact. I think the currency union and automatic sharing if cyber security technology is another one and that the Royal Navy will continue to buy over priced warships from the Clyde to support out shipbuilding industry whilst rUK continues to fund renewables and R&D in our universities.
I can tell you right now that if a Yes vote goes through I am leaving Scotland the minute I get my PhD and will have no desire to return. Scotland has a very exclusive society that you need to have some claim to Wallace's lineage to be accepted in.
0
LukeWhiting
Badges: 0
Rep:
?
#4350
Report 5 years ago
#4350
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
I think that's slightly unfair. If you take any part of the UK in isolation its dependant on the rUK.
It's perfectly fair in the context of an independence debate.
0
Kattt_452
Badges: 0
Rep:
?
#4351
Report 5 years ago
#4351
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
Wait until Maths Tutor comes along. We came to that conclusion a few months ago.
You've studiously read the 670 pages already? You are a clever lot!
0
Yi-Ge-Ningderen
Badges: 0
Rep:
?
#4352
Report 5 years ago
#4352
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
Wait until Maths Tutor comes along. We came to that conclusion a few months ago.
But the paper wasn't seen then? Although it was always going to be a pile of nonsense.
0
Quady
Badges: 20
Rep:
?
#4353
Report 5 years ago
#4353
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
It's not negativity. Its reality.

I wouldn't describe the SNPs campaign as positive. Merely fantasy.
Reality doesn't need to be 'haha Salond is in fantasy-land with made up numbers' it should be a positive articulation of how the people of Scotland are 'better together'. How the UK is big enough to absorb a financial collapse without going bankrupt, how the buying power of the NHS reduces expenditure per head, how a single tax code reduces admin between the two countries, how bloody awesome the BBC regional coverage is, how the UK can provide effective aid in humanitarian disasters, how a joined up boarder/intelligence force for the island is helpful.

Fantasy or not, the Yes campaign is a positive movement - it can't be anything else, but Better Together are failing to present their arguments as a positive vision for Scotland.
0
LukeWhiting
Badges: 0
Rep:
?
#4354
Report 5 years ago
#4354
(Original post by Kattt_452)
but I do think that many people in England are too far removed from the situation to understand and see what is really going on up here.
And what specifically is 'really going on up here', pray tell.
0
Kattt_452
Badges: 0
Rep:
?
#4355
Report 5 years ago
#4355
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
It's not negativity. Its reality.

I wouldn't describe the SNPs campaign as positive. Merely fantasy.

Many of is have to live in reality and understand the rather dire economic situation that the SNP are trying to introduce. Its a combination of nationalism and failed socialist policies.

The claim of illegal wars have also involved many of the nations that the SNP claim we should be like.

Holyrood is making decisions on my behalf. I didn't vote for them. But lets not forget that labour is the main Westminster party for Scotland, what's your argument next time labour get in? Shall all of the areas that vote Tory and lib dem throw their toys out of the pram?

I've been around SNP supporters. I tend to find them naive, unrealistic with more than a few with a darker xenophobic streak running through them. That's the general traits of nationalists.


You are right, many have been dragged into poverty, or what we in the first world consider poverty. A situation not helped by the SNP diverting funds away from tacking that poverty to shore up policies that benefit the middle classes. Problems that don't seem to be likely to go away with their aims in the future other than wild arsed claims that they'll do something to deal with it but no explanation of how.

i doubt however you have any clue of what oppression is. I'm not oppressed and I'm sure as hell you're not oppressed. Using emotive language to portray a sense of victim hood is another traits of nationalists throughout the modern world. They need to try and portray themselves as victims to gain support. They thrive on negativeness.

Can I assume that when a no vote is returned you'll be taking your poison to other shores?
Hardly emotive language. I'm not "oppressed" at this moment in time but I know what it's like to struggle. I have also worked closely with people in this country who have struggled and who are still struggling. They are oppressed by the ongoing control of Westminister, though I know you'll deny that of course.

I don't thrive on negativity. I thrive on optimism. I have been raised by people who are in the SNP (now, though the majority were in the Labour party until a few years back) and in that time have learned what it is to keep striving for a better, more equal future. I have always been encouraged to believe in the sky being the limit (so negative, hey?). We don't need to 'try and portray ourselves' as victims in Scotland because we are victims to a large extent. There I said it. In varying degrees, maybe, but if you want to use a blanket term we are still a victim of Westminister. And we won't break free from that until we get a 'yes' vote and are able to look forward to a more hopeful future.
0
Psyk
Badges: 16
Rep:
?
#4356
Report 5 years ago
#4356
(Original post by Quady)
Having the Queen of England rather than reinstating a monarch of Scotland is odd.
To be fair, that isn't that odd. Unless they're going to work out the heir to the throne from James VII, the current monarch is as much the Scottish one as she is the English one, regardless of whether it's in the UK or not. Plus the monarchy is already something that we share between several independent countries.
0
Quady
Badges: 20
Rep:
?
#4357
Report 5 years ago
#4357
(Original post by LukeWhiting)
And what specifically is 'really going on up here', pray tell.
And which bit of 'here'...
0
Kattt_452
Badges: 0
Rep:
?
#4358
Report 5 years ago
#4358
(Original post by Quady)
Reality doesn't need to be 'haha Salond is in fantasy-land with made up numbers' it should be a positive articulation of how the people of Scotland are 'better together'. How the UK is big enough to absorb a financial collapse without going bankrupt, how the buying power of the NHS reduces expenditure per head, how a single tax code reduces admin between the two countries, how bloody awesome the BBC regional coverage is, how the UK can provide effective aid in humanitarian disasters, how a joined up boarder/intelligence force for the island is helpful.

Fantasy or not, the Yes campaign is a positive movement - it can't be anything else, but Better Together are failing to present their arguments as a positive vision for Scotland.
Yep, that's because Better Together is basically "what we have now". Who's convinced?
0
Quady
Badges: 20
Rep:
?
#4359
Report 5 years ago
#4359
(Original post by Psyk)
To be fair, that isn't that odd. Unless they're going to work out the heir to the throne from James VII, the current monarch is as much the Scottish one as she is the English one, regardless of whether it's in the UK or not. Plus the monarchy is already something that we share between several independent countries.
You don't need an heir to have a separate monarch as head of state - look at Belgium.

Those countries didn't have anything comparable before British rule.

The USA quite notably rejected the Queen when it got its independence, wasn't lazy and setup its own construct for head of state.
0
Midlander
Badges: 19
Rep:
?
#4360
Report 5 years ago
#4360
(Original post by Kattt_452)
Not true. Perhaps you aren't a 'scaremongerer' - but I do think that many people in England are too far removed from the situation to understand and see what is really going on up here. I would say that lots of people are scaremongerers - I certainly wouldn't say all are. I don't think any politician has ever produced a perfected vision that they followed through on on all accounts. But the SNP have made some promises that they have followed through on so far, and that inspires some confidence.

You in turn are displaying a great deal of ignorance at the economic state of anywhere not in the Home Counties. Walk around Coventry and you will find the streets aren't quite paved with gold-England suffers from the London centric model as much as the next place. The SNP has openly lied to the Scottish public and evaded any serious criticism in the media for it-if David Cameron were making such fictitious claims as they have he would be strung up for it.


A strong criticism of Westminister government does not translate to anglophobia. Please don't make that mistake.

Sorry, but 'we're sick of being controlled by London' reads as 'we're sick of being controlled by the English' to me. Talk of oppression strengthens that.

Just because? Just? Are you telling me it's okay to brutally murder innocent people and then think it's okay to be 'fickle' when desiring to be set apart from such an inhumane action? It it far from fickle. Peoples lives are far more important than some of the more shallow concerns people have, like "oh no, will we still have a Team GB?!" like was in the BBC News today.

Every government makes ill advised decisions-even the Norwegian one which is held up as some model of a utopian society by the SNP, and which entered its forces into the 'illegal' conflicts you talk of. A Scottish Government will get things wrong as well and to pretend to the contrary is idealistic twaddle.


Do you know what else is absurd? Slapping a one-size-fits-all label on Scots by saying the entire SNP campaign is about anglophobia. We are thousands of people with different desires for what we would like to see in an independent country. I'm not saying you have champagne glasses. But I am suggesting that you perhaps haven't experienced/empathised with a level of inequality that would allow you to understand why true change becomes imperative.

I slap on that label because it rears its head in any argument or debate I see featuring somebody from the Yes campaign. Even in the independence white paper Alex Salmond proposes to break EU law to charge English students for higher education-things like that are difficult to explain through anything other than bigotry. You insinuate that because I am English I have had a more comfortable lifestyle so don't know what it's like to have things hard-that is an assumption with zero foundation.


Um, well the English screwed us over repeatedly in the past - it isn't a lie made up by Yes campaigners. King Henry VII and several others used to tell Scotland 'Do this or what we'll show you want happens when you don't agree with us". The last thing a referendum would produce is having "everything the same" - you are right in saying there are a few similarities and I think Salmond has put those forward (like keeping the Monarch for example) so he doesn't scare everyone at once.

There we go-talking about wars from hundreds of years ago as justification for a present day argument. I take it you will ignore invasions made in the other direction? How about Scotland's significant contributions to, and benefits from, the expansion of the British Empire? If Scotland wants independence it should be absolute and total-otherwise it is not true independence.


I'm not quite sure I understand why you'd feel like a foreigner? I heard Alistair Carmichael saying something to that effect the other day "If Scotland becomes a foreign country, we'll treat it like one." Honestly, what the...

Because officially I would be.

Look, Midlander, when it comes down to it Westminister is a mess, a mess that is adversely affecting both Scotland and England. We want the chance to break free and for me at least, that is not rooted in any kind of dislike of English people or annoyances about the past. I am very much interested in the present and future; I just wish some people could be more open-minded about the reasons why we have felt the need to take this step.
It's all this talk about England and Scotland that has me talking about Anglophobia. There is never, and I mean never, talk about 'well what do I have in common with someone from south Wales' or 'Scotland brings more in per head than Northern Ireland'. It is always emphasising cultural differences with South East England, complaining about being ruled by London, that makes me apply the Anglophobic label. You know what? Just because times are hard now doesn't mean they always will be. Just because the Tories are in now doesn't mean they always will be.

People will always have to contend with things they don't like-huge numbers after all didn't vote for an SNP government at Holyrood.
0
X
new posts
Back
to top
Latest
My Feed

See more of what you like on
The Student Room

You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

Personalise

Have you made up your mind on your five uni choices?

Yes I know where I'm applying (153)
59.3%
No I haven't decided yet (60)
23.26%
Yes but I might change my mind (45)
17.44%

Watched Threads

View All