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    (Original post by The Mad Dog)
    You asked what extreme individualism is I gave you an answer and you've just babbled back at me about fascism. WTF.
    Can you not be bothered to look back at the exchange between myself and dj1015?

    You're correct that extreme individualism is libertarian (that is to say, American libertarianism).

    My point is that it's the extremity of the ideology that makes it fascist.

    I've "babbled" information relevant to the conversation I was having. With someone else by the way.
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    (Original post by Morgsie)
    You take these people on in debate and show everyone that their argument is flawed and wrong.

    As TSR's most europhille member, I take them on in debate and show them that their fantasy is wrong
    How's that working out for you? Also, Hi Morgsie, long time no see. Have you seen the MHoC lately? The Lib Dems have adopted a new name and half of the last Libertarian manifesto.
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    (Original post by Syrokal)
    Did you really just claim Fascism is a left wing ideology?

    I'm insulted.
    It's authoritarian and emphasises the power of the state, which I would call Authoritarian left. It focuses on international rather than intranational (class) conflicts for the justification of the primacy of the state, but other than that is little different to socialism.
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    (Original post by chrisawhitmore)
    It's authoritarian and emphasises the power of the state, which I would call Authoritarian left. It focuses on international rather than intranational (class) conflicts for the justification of the primacy of the state, but other than that is little different to socialism.
    Yea let's just forget the fact that we are Totalitarian in nature(right)
    We are against immigration and multi-culturalism(right)
    We are strongly millitant(right)
    We reinforce typical gender roles(right)
    Have a tendency to promote tradition and cultural values(right)
    We are profundly Antiliberalism Anticommunism both of which are left positions(right)
    Centralization of power is not a strictly left position to take, if the centreliazation were to be put in the hands of the populace, then yes I would agree.
    Fascism however tends to put it in the hands of the state, often one individual charismatic leader.

    At absolute worst it can be described as a centrist doctrine due to (like most parties...) it's tendency to take some ideas and concepts that are strongly held by the Left.

    To quote the Wiki for what it's worth
    Fascism is commonly described as "extreme right" although some writers have found placing fascism on a conventional left-right political spectrum difficult.Fascism was influenced by both left and right, conservative and anti-conservative, national and supranational, rational and anti-rational.A number of historians have regarded fascism either as a revolutionary centrist doctrine, as a doctrine which mixes philosophies of the left and the right, or as both of those things.
    An Ideology cannot be blindly defined by one issue, you did not give a single point as to why you considered it left.
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    (Original post by Syrokal)
    Yea let's just forget the fact that we are Totalitarian in nature(right)
    We are against immigration and multi-culturalism(right)
    We are strongly millitant(right)
    We reinforce typical gender roles(right)
    Have a tendency to promote tradition and cultural values(right)
    We are profundly Antiliberalism Anticommunism both of which are left positions(right)
    Centralization of power is not a strictly left position to take, if the centreliazation were to be put in the hands of the populace, then yes I would agree.
    Fascism however tends to put it in the hands of the state, often one individual charismatic leader.

    At absolute worst it can be described as a centrist doctrine due to (like most parties...) it's tendency to take some ideas and concepts that are strongly held by the Left.

    To quote the Wiki for what it's worth


    An Ideology cannot be blindly defined by one issue, you did not give a single point as to why you considered it left.
    As I see the left-right spectrum, it is a continuum from collectivism on the left to individualism on the right, essentially big government left, small government right (true communism is, for sake of this definition, regarded as a government made up of all the citizens, which owns everything, which I accept is a bit of a kludge but it makes it fit on a scale). On that definition of left to right, Fascism is a left leaning ideology. The policies which you identify as right tend to be more about authoritarianism, which is not really a left right issue, but a separate scale.
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    (Original post by chrisawhitmore)
    As I see the left-right spectrum, it is a continuum from collectivism on the left to individualism on the right, essentially big government left, small government right (true communism is, for sake of this definition, regarded as a government made up of all the citizens, which owns everything, which I accept is a bit of a kludge but it makes it fit on a scale). On that definition of left to right, Fascism is a left leaning ideology. The policies which you identify as right tend to be more about authoritarianism, which is not really a left right issue, but a separate scale.
    Meh, on seconds thought on the subject I don't really care, left right, middle, up down.

    I hold the views I do, though try aproaching a Socialist and tell them Fascist are left...that will go down very well.
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    (Original post by chrisawhitmore)
    (true communism is, for sake of this definition, regarded as a government made up of all the citizens, which owns everything, which I accept is a bit of a kludge but it makes it fit on a scale).
    Can we not all agree that trying to place fascism on the left/right scale is arbitrary?
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    (Original post by AtlasCanTakeIt)
    Can we not all agree that trying to place fascism on the left/right scale is arbitrary?
    Yes and No.

    I think we can all get together on the fact that it is a broadly collective ideology. So to claim it is left isn't a unreasonable assertion to make in my opinion. There are those who will reject this label. Mainly other collectivists, but sadly for them they are off the same species as the fascists they hate so much.

    What I do want to make clear, is that it is most definitely not anything whatsoever to do with the Right or Individualism. In that opinion, my mind can not be changed.
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    (Original post by dj1015)
    Yes and No.

    I think we can all get together on the fact that it is a broadly collective ideology. So to claim it is left isn't a unreasonable assertion to make in my opinion. There are those who will reject this label. Mainly other collectivists, but sadly for them they are off the same species as the fascists they hate so much.

    What I do want to make clear, is that it is most definitely not anything whatsoever to do with the Right or Individualism. In that opinion, my mind can not be changed.
    Then it isn't yes and no.

    You're saying the answer is no, It's not unreasonable to say that there are left wing examples of fascism. And there are no examples of right wing fascists.

    This is complete fallacy.
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    (Original post by AtlasCanTakeIt)
    Then it isn't yes and no.

    You're saying the answer is no, It's not unreasonable to say that there are left wing examples of fascism. And there are no examples of right wing fascists.

    This is complete fallacy.
    I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say.

    I was trying to explain this yes, the right left scale is a bit pointless in the circumstances. However if we had to use it, we would swiftly arrive at the conclusion that it is more left than right. Hence my earlier comments.
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    (Original post by dj1015)
    I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say.

    I was trying to explain this yes, the right left scale is a bit pointless in the circumstances. However if we had to use it, we would swiftly arrive at the conclusion that it is more left than right. Hence my earlier comments.
    Uh huh.

    Why do we have to use it if it isn't fit for purpose?
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    (Original post by AtlasCanTakeIt)
    Uh huh.

    Why do we have to use it if it isn't fit for purpose?
    To satisfy the simplistic cravings of the people out there who still stick to it. And also to upset all the champagne socialists.
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    (Original post by dj1015)
    To satisfy the simplistic cravings of the people out there who still stick to it. And also to upset all the champagne socialists.
    But we know better. So we shouldn't use it.

    No?
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    (Original post by AtlasCanTakeIt)
    Can we not all agree that trying to place fascism on the left/right scale is arbitrary?
    Yeah, it's really the wrong scale to put it on anyway. It just annoys me that the economic right (economic libertarianism) is associated with an ideology which couldn't be further from it.
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    (Original post by Scots King)
    Yeah because it makes sense to call a libertarian party fascist...It's not about race anyway, but about numbers.

    At a time of economic downturn, the rationale for the free movement of workers falls away - its goal is to provide labour for countries which have skills shortages. Most immigrants are low-skilled workers and we have an abundance of low-skilled workers currently unemployed. Why on earth would you want to add to those numbers?
    Hang on a minute! He hadn't said that by this point.

    He had said "Hopefully if Farage and UKIP do attain power, the first act they carry out is to punish all those on the left who betrayed this country. Allowing our laws to be decided in Brussels and open our borders to millions.
    Bringing back hanging would also be a bonus, knowing that they faced the noose most traitors would probably flew the country"

    You called him a fascist for this comment, not his later one(seeking a one party state)
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    I would say this has been the case for well, as long as I can remember. Not a day goes by where some far-right idiot walks in posts a thread on something they obviously have no understanding of and allowed the argument to go on.

    Unfortunately the rise of UKIP has only allowed the far right to unify stronger than it has been in the past and that isn't exactly helping matters around here.
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    (Original post by Will Lucky)
    I would say this has been the case for well, as long as I can remember. Not a day goes by where some far-right idiot walks in posts a thread on something they obviously have no understanding of and allowed the argument to go on.

    Unfortunately the rise of UKIP has only allowed the far right to unify stronger than it has been in the past and that isn't exactly helping matters around here.
    The left have had it their own way on policies like immigration, the EU and welfare for so long - policies that have all resulted in disaster - that we need some fresh thinking on these matters to help identify a different path. This shift to the right you're noticing is a good sign because it suggests the public are learning from our past mistakes. God help us if Labour get in in 2015.
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    (Original post by chrisawhitmore)
    As I see the left-right spectrum, it is a continuum from collectivism on the left to individualism on the right, essentially big government left, small government right (true communism is, for sake of this definition, regarded as a government made up of all the citizens, which owns everything, which I accept is a bit of a kludge but it makes it fit on a scale). On that definition of left to right, Fascism is a left leaning ideology. The policies which you identify as right tend to be more about authoritarianism, which is not really a left right issue, but a separate scale.
    This would place Keynes and one nation Toryism on the left and Kropotkin, Durutti and the CNT on the right. Patently absurd.
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    (Original post by chefdave)
    The left have had it their own way on policies like immigration, the EU and welfare for so long - policies that have all resulted in disaster - that we need some fresh thinking on these matters to help identify a different path. This shift to the right you're noticing is a good sign because it suggests the public are learning from our past mistakes. God help us if Labour get in in 2015.
    First of all, read about the Left Wing you obviously don't understand them. I as a right wing liberal support the EU and full Federalization.

    And incorrect, the public have actually always overwhelming supported a right wing approach but tend to not understand the exact details of what they are voting for.
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    If you place fascism on the left, you have to explain why conservative elements helped fascism to power (church, landowners, royals, business interests etc)
 
 
 
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