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Eu: In or out?

  • View Poll Results: Should be stay a member or leave?
    Stay
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    (Original post by newpersonage)
    Are you sure that the EU you imagine is the same as the reality? Did you know that most countries in the EU have judges that investigate, prosecute and then judge crimes? Did you know that the EU commission, an unelected body, proposes the laws in the EU? Did you know that the UK has a £100bn pa current account deficit with the EU now and the EU is an economic disaster for the UK?

    Did you know that the EU is uniting at two speeds, a fast, Eurozone track that may have political union by 2025 and a slow Denmark and UK track that will be marginalised entirely by the Eurozone when it is united?

    Did you know that the BBC, FT and Economist attended the meeting that set up "Stronger In Europe" to ensure that we are fed a bunch of lies and diversions in the referendum campaign?
    Yep knew all that and heres why i'm still in... Do you and all other students want to experience all the short term economic costs of a brexit? for example a weak pound and ****ed up markets, making it harder to get a job in the next 5 years. Its a sinister world get the stick out of your ass and try and make a living.
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    (Original post by kennyboy69.5)
    Yep knew all that and heres why i'm still in... Do you and all other students want to experience all the short term economic costs of a brexit? for example a weak pound and ****ed up markets, making it harder to get a job in the next 5 years. Its a sinister world get the stick out of your ass and try and make a living.
    I won't be out of uni in the next 5 years and I intend to enter the RAF after that, so it doesn't bother me

    Would you rather be remembered as the generation that took down the EU or just be totally forgotten as a useless generation?
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    (Original post by EuanF)
    I won't be out of uni in the next 5 years and I intend to enter the RAF after that, so it doesn't bother me

    Would you rather be remembered as the generation that took down the EU or just be totally forgotten as a useless generation?
    meh tbh you have to be quite naive to think that with all the money and power injected into the EU, the referendum isn't rigged...
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    (Original post by kennyboy69.5)
    meh tbh you have to be quite naive to think that with all the money and power injected into the EU, the referendum isn't rigged...
    Worth a shot at least, no point being defeatist about it

    unless you're a coward at least
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    (Original post by EuanF)
    Worth a shot at least, no point being defeatist about it

    unless you're a coward at least
    lol, we'll see what the result is mate. Like I said I am in because I don't want to hinder my future prospects of getting a job in the city. If there are other brexiters that haven't considered that, I suggest you do so.
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    It's Germany that's carrying everyone in the EU... We benefit from them
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    OUT
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    (Original post by Pmh1)
    In no way am I attempting to minimise or deride what you said or any aspect of British Culture all I wanted was for you too explain your points better otherwise it looks like you made groundless accusations.
    As I said in my post, there was bound to be someone who would want to take apart the attributes of a national culture item by item and deride or minimise each one. But such an analysis is pointless, as I will demonstrate:

    Of course the British trading system is no different from a given tribe of Amazonian indigent indians, they both use a medium of exchange so how could I declare that there is anything unique in British culture?

    Of course there are complex trials where juries are left confused and the Germans might manage these well, therefore the German system is better than that in the UK so how could I declare British trials to be of any worth?

    Of course the British trading tradition pales into insignificance compared with the operation of the Dutch East India company.... and so on.

    All true. But I was in Genoa a few months back and I can absolutely assure you that there is a wide cultural difference between the Genoese and the people of Salisbury. A vast difference. It was wonderful, so interesting compared with some of the homogenised cities of N. Europe since the EEC squashed them all.

    This is why I am not going to debate the component parts of a cultural atmosphere. As I have said all along such an analysis is pointless. It misses the nature of culture entirely, it is like discussing a Van Gogh in terms of the chemical composition of the paint. The only reason for reducing the debate to such minutiae would be that you know beforehand that such a diversion will make it appear as if there are no cultural differences.
    [/QUOTE]
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    (Original post by metrize)
    It's Germany that's carrying everyone in the EU... We benefit from them
    No, this is a common misconception. Firstly the Germans set up the EMU (Euro) so that it benefited them most of all so they are doing the most damage to the EU. See Reuters Report: Analysis - What Euro bailouts? Eurocrisis saves Germany money. and as Norman Lamont said of the German position: "At Maastricht, one of the Germans’ main objectives was to secure a “no bail-out” clause to joining a single currency, because they were worried about the large indebtedness of Italy. But the logic of currency union is that the strong countries should assist the weaker ones."

    Secondly, German growth figures have been quite pedestrian:


    The Germans are running an aggressively mercantilist economy, they are predators. Fortunately it is not doing them that much good! They are also happy with the EU because they evolved a State system under the Holy Roman Empire (which only ended in the 17th Century) that could resist the type of central controls and cultural homogenisation that can occur in parts of an Imperium such as the EU.
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    (Original post by newpersonage)
    No, this is a common misconception. Firstly the Germans set up the EMU (Euro) so that it benefited them most of all so they are doing the most damage to the EU. See Reuters Report: Analysis - What Euro bailouts? Eurocrisis saves Germany money. and as Norman Lamont said of the German position: "At Maastricht, one of the Germans’ main objectives was to secure a “no bail-out” clause to joining a single currency, because they were worried about the large indebtedness of Italy. But the logic of currency union is that the strong countries should assist the weaker ones."

    Secondly, German growth figures have been quite pedestrian:


    The Germans are running an aggressively mercantilist economy, they are predators. Fortunately it is not doing them that much good! They are also happy with the EU because they evolved a State system under the Holy Roman Empire (which only ended in the 17th Century) that could resist the type of central controls and cultural homogenisation that can occur in parts of an Imperium such as the EU.
    Interesting, thanks for the reply
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    (Original post by trapking)
    I was initially going to vote in but after watching this i'm going to vote out. Those are some solid points.
    Nice one!
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    (Original post by newpersonage)
    As I said in my post, there was bound to be someone who would want to take apart the attributes of a national culture item by item and deride or minimise each one. But such an analysis is pointless, as I will demonstrate:

    Of course the British trading system is no different from a given tribe of Amazonian indigent indians, they both use a medium of exchange so how could I declare that there is anything unique in British culture?

    Of course there are complex trials where juries are left confused and the Germans might manage these well, therefore the German system is better than that in the UK so how could I declare British trials to be of any worth?

    Of course the British trading tradition pales into insignificance compared with the operation of the Dutch East India company.... and so on.

    All true. But I was in Genoa a few months back and I can absolutely assure you that there is a wide cultural difference between the Genoese and the people of Salisbury. A vast difference. It was wonderful, so interesting compared with some of the homogenised cities of N. Europe since the EEC squashed them all.

    This is why I am not going to debate the component parts of a cultural atmosphere. As I have said all along such an analysis is pointless. It misses the nature of culture entirely, it is like discussing a Van Gogh in terms of the chemical composition of the paint. The only reason for reducing the debate to such minutiae would be that you know beforehand that such a diversion will make it appear as if there are no cultural differences.
    How have I derided or minimised each one? In no way have a I made fun of any of these points nor have I tried to make them seem insignificant all I have done is pointed out that we're not as different as you think.

    We're not talking about a tribe of Amazonian's or Indigenous Indians, we're talking about Europeans who are culturally similar to us (there are still differences) They have had Empires like ours they have traded in the same way as us (with other nations, with colonies etc.) I don't see how we have traded in a way the is different to the way Europeans traded historically. A tribe of Amazons will value certain things (like food maybe) over other things (for example go find a tribe in the amazon that rarely has any contact with other people and try and buy something using our money) Our systems are similar to Europeans there maybe a few differences here and there but they aren't massive. One of the biggest differences between Europeans is language and even then many languages share roots or can sound similar (I speak French and occasionally I can understand a tiny bit of Italian simply because some words are the same and I can plug in the gaps).

    I don't care which system (German or British) is better or fairer they both have there advantages and disadvantages over the other I just don't see why this means we have to leave? You also originally said that these (our law systems) have given rise to a tradition of fairness in the UK and they way to wrote it sounded like European systems aren't fair or that Europeans don't have a tradition of fairness which just isn't true (they have a tradition of fairness just as much as we do).

    About trading kinda mentioned it in my second paragraph.

    There are differences in culture between each country from the UK to France and from Poland to Greece and these cultural differences are still there yes in cities they have been diminished slightly by movement of people but that's because people move about for various reasons its nothing new. The movements of people around the EU is no different than when people from rural areas move to urban areas (for whatever reason) they maybe looking for a job or to escape poverty or too try something new. Migration has always happened the EU has just given more people the ability too and as a consequence of this cultures can be mixed together in cities and other urban areas. But the culture is still there my mothers side of the family is from Brittany and they are proud Bretons my cousin has the flag of Brittany in his room on the wall when I visit we go into the local towns and we buy local food like Galette's (I personally don't like them but my family does) every time we are going to have a meal with the entire family (all my cousins and aunt and uncles) It takes ages as they insist of first sitting down have wine (or soft drinks for the kids) and just chatting. I remember that I once sat down and we were gonna get Pizza (I know not traditional but meh) and we sat down at 6 and we never ordered the Pizza till 8. The culture still exists its just diluted in the cities.

    I've spent a lot of time in Brittany and when I compare that region of France to where I live now (North West England) there are differences but nothing that would mean that we can't have open borders or interact with them. The greetings can be different and so can the eating times and the EU hasn't stopped or prevented that all it has done is cause more people to move around and share there cultures. I've travelled a fair bit around Europe and I've been to large cities and rural areas (I went to Corfu last summer and I met a couple who make wine and olive oil using traditional technique's) and the Culture is alive and well.
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    (Original post by Pmh1)
    ...
    I've spent a lot of time in Brittany and when I compare that region of France to where I live now (North West England) there are differences but nothing that would mean that we can't have open borders or interact with them.
    Of course people would travel between France and Britain after brexit. Why do Remain campaigners always use the argument of extremes?

    After brexit there will be free travel, but people would eventually have to go home unless they had permission to settle. There would also be about the same level of UK-EU trade as now (tariffs would only be <4%)

    Open borders and interaction would continue.

    The greetings can be different and so can the eating times and the EU hasn't stopped or prevented that all it has done is cause more people to move around and share there cultures. I've travelled a fair bit around Europe and I've been to large cities and rural areas (I went to Corfu last summer and I met a couple who make wine and olive oil using traditional technique's) and the Culture is alive and well.
    The reason countries have separate cultures is that they have had centuries of different laws, religions and civic processes. Driving on the right, using third rail electric trains, justice systems, the tiers of government, the education system etc. etc. Again, please don't take these one at a time - as I pointed out above, culture is a package, its component parts are not the culture. It is centuries of separate self government that have created different countries.

    As you say, the difference between countries can take centuries to erase once it is established. However, a couple of years ago I heard a radio program about English accents in the 1940s and these incomprehensible dialects have now all gone. The modern world has accelerated the rate of cultural change.

    I am certain that if we preserve Nations we will preserve far more cultural difference than if we do not preserve them and create an EU of regions. Even outside the EU we will never have the huge differences of two centuries ago because of travel and communication, and I am not sure that differences on that scale would be a good thing in Europe, however, separate self government will preserve and generate substantial differences that will bring sparkle to our lives.



    Why should we preserve diversity? It is not just that cultures have an intrinsic value, they also protect us. Suppose, in 20 yrs time, after full political union in the EU, the AfD, Front National, Austrian Freedom Party etc. gain power in Brussels: they then rule the EU. If we were in the EEC this would not be a problem - the UK could just veto everything but in the EU political union we would be finished. In a political union we all go the same way. There are many other examples of the benefit of diversity, especially in economics, banking etc.

    Xenophobia is as bad as a fanatical desire for uniform governance such as the EU. We have passed through the near-optimal state of cooperation and respect between nations in the EEC and need to stop the slide to homogenisation.

    The pro-EU media have portrayed brexit as the preserve of racists but the destruction of diversity through fear of difference is just as bad.
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    (Original post by Pmh1)
    As for the ports services regulation, I checked how our MEPS voted using this site: (http://www.votewatch.eu/en/term8-mar...on-vote-2.html) and 1 of our MEPS voted in favour and 7 were absent or chose not to vote. However out MEPs did vote overwhelmingly to reject it so I took a look at how other countries voted in total, (Also who are our allies exactly?) the only ones to reject the proposal other than us were: Poland and spain (with cyprus being 50/50). Our usual allies I suspect are the Netherlands, Ireland, Sweden and Denmark. They voted as such: (For:Against) 17:7 9:1 14:2 10:1 respectively. So the EU parliament did as it should pass bills that it sees as the best for the common good of the EU as a whole and not a particular nation. Looking into this regulation I found that the reason it's is believed that it will have a negative impact on our ports and not continental ports is due to the fact that many of our own ports a privately owned whereas continental ports tend to be state/council owned. So even if this will have a negative impact (I couldn't find anything telling me that it would be highly damaging (I couldn't find any figures and got bored while researching this)) we're just gonna have to deal with it if it's going to have a positive impact on the rest of the EU. Plus one bill that we vote overwhelmingly against will happen from time to time but it is quite rare I believe we can't just have every thing that we like about the EU and reject every negative. (was gonna type some more but I reckon my post is long enough)
    You're looking at alliances in completely the wrong way, you want to be looking at groups, parties, in some cases individuals, how did EFDD and ECR vote, for instance. It's also a case of size of ports, with direct competition between many of our ports due to their general smaller size, there is competition without introducing internal competition. We also get that amendments were put forwards to make exclusions based on the different way the UK has their ports, and through all the debates it was brought up time and time again, so it's not even like it was unknown, and it's not like there was no opportunity to sort out the problems both of not having and of actually having the regulation.
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    (Original post by slaven)
    Utterly nauseating. Anti-patriotic, smug, self-righteous little slimeball. I suppose he is unaware of French colonial history, or the collusion of large portions of the continent in a hideous genocide more recently than the empire, or how British colonies ended up freer, happier and better off than anyone elses. I guess he is also aware of large sectors of Europe that have attitudes to race even over 100years behind ours, and the enthusiasm for neo-nazism that is not uncommon in Eastern Europe. He makes me sick, and confirms my views that people like this always want our country to take a hit. They hate it.
    It's always veiled in a patriotic case, as it has been so long, but then the truth then always comes out somehow. So much of our political consensus and the people holding sway in our country for so long have served to spitefully destroy it. They are not going to win as of now, if we vote out it will be the beginning,
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    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    Utterly nauseating. Anti-patriotic, smug, self-righteous little slimeball. I suppose he is unaware of French colonial history, or the collusion of large portions of the continent in a hideous genocide more recently than the empire, or how British colonies ended up freer, happier and better off than anyone elses. I guess he is also aware of large sectors of Europe that have attitudes to race even over 100years behind ours, and the enthusiasm for neo-nazism that is not uncommon in Eastern Europe. He makes me sick, and confirms my views that people like this always want our country to take a hit. They hate it.
    (it's an edit)
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    Ok lol, well maybe not for him, then, sorry Owen, but there are plenty like that for real.
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    Here's the other thing, A strong independent UK, and an independent France which could well result, would be a powerful foreign policy operator when it combined in a relationship, much more a 'special relationship' in fact than the one we supposedly have with the US('back of the cue' anyone, love how Obama is the left's darling and we keep believing this myth). In fact I think it would be much more powerful than the EU as it stands.
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    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...foul-play.html

    Once again, the liberal consensus and pro-Europeans show they are morally superior. Oddly, I can't recall any assassination attempts aimed at remainers, or anyone who supports consensus.

    This is one incident, I know, but it links to broader themes. A neoliberal consensus, and the hatred of those who oppose it, an often sinister climate where what appears to be benign is so often the opposite, and those who are demonized and misrepresented for acting out of principle and threatening it. It points to a darker authoritarianism involved in this current paradigm, and voting Brexit is not a decision that will just exist in and of itself, it will precipitate other things, namely the ability to make a better country for us to live in.
 
 
 
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