New terror attack france many dead

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so sad, why would there be an islamic terror attack on a day so important to the French?

I think you have answered your own question.

The whole point is to create a climate of fear and mistrust, and the bigger the event, the bigger the effect.

Reply 421

BaconandSauce

Original post by QE2

Indeed. According to some, simply pointing out that Islam contains some unacceptable ideas is enough to radicalise Muslims.

Quite

It's a sad state of affairs when even saying Islam can be a problem causes problems.

which is why I stand by my claim that those who deny this are just as dangerous as those who use it to cause violence

Reply 422

QE2

Original post by Fugggggg :DDD

I think after this a FN election and Frexit is all but confirmed.

Considering that the vast majority of Muslims in France are of French colonial origin, it would make as much sense as Brexit.

Reply 423

Fullofsurprises

Original post by QE2

The only way to achieve this is to remove from the Quran all passages that can be interpreted as encouraging violence against those who refuse to submit to Islam. And accept that Muhammad was not the perfect role model and that he said and did some unacceptable things.

However, no Muslim is going to agree to this, so the "misinterpretations" will continue.

It's more like a change in the way the Book is viewed that's needed. Christians generally don't go around nowadays insisting that slavery is perfectly valid and reasonable, but the passages advocating it (or treating it as a 'normal' thing) are still there in the Bible - what changed is that most Christians accept that interpretation is needed. Actually, most Muslims accept that in relation to the Quran and there have been generations of interpretation - the current extremist factions, branching out from Salafism, are pulling a scam, they argue that they advocate pure non-interpretive 'textism', whereas in fact they are simply stating that their and only their interpretation is valid.

We should also try to restore some kind of moderate centralism in Islam - in the 'good old days', Islam was somewhat unified under the Mufti of Istanbul (he had competing Muftis, like the one in Cairo, but under Ottoman rule, it was fairly widely accepted that he was the ultimate Islamic authority) - after the collapse of the empire, the Mufti was done away with. There were efforts to replace his authority from Jerusalem and in modern times from Saudi Arabia and therein lies a lot of the problem. Muslims need a new leadership not based in Saudi, but that is of course very difficult given the presence of Mecca there.

There also needs to be a new Islamic scholarship arguing in their terms against Salafism that becomes a real presence in their world. In the Christian world, the work of radical re-interpreters of the way the Bible was seen during the period after the reformation and through to modern times has been critical in reshaping how most Christians see the world.

Western governments should be concentrating on trying to modernise Islamic education in their countries, they should be demanding that cultural and media industries depict positive models of Muslim characters (there aren't nearly enough on TV) and they should be doing far more to try to encourage Muslim businesses to assist young Muslims in becoming more prosperous, at the same time as aggressively stopping Salafist funds reaching UK Muslim institutions such as schools.

The current government's Free Schools programme is a big negative on this as it encourages religious groups to run education out of sight of the state or community and to promote sectarian curricula.

Reply 424

QE2

Original post by Craig1998

Support or deny what exactly? I don't really get what you're saying it's vague.

That such events, and groups like ISIS are as a result of a literalist and retentionist interpretation of Islamic ideology.
In other words, it has everything to do with Islam.

Please note: before you launch into the usual attack on straw men, I do not claim that all Muslims are terrorists, only those who carry out and support such attacks.
Or that ISIS is the only representation of Islam, only that ISIS is one possible legitimate interpretation and is justified by the Quran and sunnah.

Reply 425

Plantagenet Crown

For God's sake, the West needs to wake up to the cancer of Islamic extremism and act. I'm on the Left, but consistently ignoring the problem and not speaking out for fear of offending people is ****ing ridiculous now. When will we finally act, when London has been reduced to rubble by a terrorist attack?

Reply 426

Good bloke

Original post by Fullofsurprises

Actually, most Muslims accept that in relation to the Quran and there have been generations of interpretation - the current extremist factions, branching out from Salafism, are pulling a scam, they argue that they advocate pure non-interpretive 'textism', whereas in fact they are simply stating that their and only their interpretation is valid.

The thing is that the Koran itself, produced, after all, by a politically-motivated warlord trying to influence superstitious people to do his bidding, actually tells Moslems that it is complete and perfect and that interpretations are not allowed.

Islam is, ultimately, doomed to be rooted in mediaeval politics. The only answer (which will not happen this century) is for educated people to abandon it and not indoctrinate their children into it

Reply 427

Fullofsurprises

Original post by Plantagenet Crown

What is the action that you think should be done that's not being done already?

Reply 428

Plantagenet Crown

Original post by Fullofsurprises

What is the action that you think should be done that's not being done already?

First and foremost, admitting that this ideology is a problem, and not spouting the constant "this has nothing to do with Islam" narrative.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 429

Josb

Original post by oShahpo

Isn't time Muslims realise the bad influence their religion can have? Regardless of its goodness or badness, I think it's time for Muslims in the West to start a new sect or whatever that has non-Violence as its main creed, maybe then we'll be able to better filter the retarded murderers.

Non-violent Muslim sects already exist, but so far the only response of Muslims, including liberal ones, is to say "not all Muslims", "terrorism has no religion", etc. whilst it would be more useful to precisely name the Muslim sect that has encouraged such behaviour with their literal reading of the Quran; that is Wahhabism. I would like to see a clear rejection of this sect, by rejecting preachers and money coming from Saudi Arabia; Western Governments should also stop being so kind with KSA, which has exported this ideology all over the world thanks to their oil money.

Reply 430

Fullofsurprises

Original post by Good bloke

It may say that (and it doesn't actually quite say exactly that) but the fact is that generations of interpretative scholars in Islam in different ways did create interpretative views - we also shouldn't forget that Islam is far from monolithic and contains deep internal splits and schisms, just like Christianity.

I don't disagree that the Salafist strain appears to be medievalist, but that doesn't mean it all is, or that we should abandon hope that Muslims generally can be reasoned with. These are acts by extremists within an extremist tendency.

Reply 431

username1177050

A countries duty is to protect its own citizens first and foremost. I think the French electorate will see the front national as the only way to do this

Reply 432

Fullofsurprises

Original post by Josb

Agreed, it's crystal clear that the Saudi version of Islam (itself strongly influenced by Egyptian-originating group the Muslim Brotherhood and by Palestinian Arab reaction) is at the core of the problem.

Saudi Arabia is to my mind the number one rogue state, a bigger threat to our way of life now than almost any other country and not a nation we should be trading with or having relations with. The issue is that the corrupt plutocracy of that country stays in power by manipulating religion. It suits them (and some very large oil corporations and parts of the US elite) but it unfortunately causes dire consequences for many of the rest of us.

One thing we absolutely must do now is stop Saudi and other Wahabi/Salafist organisations in the Gulf from sponsoring 'education' and other activities in this country and in the West generally.

Reply 433

Fullofsurprises

Original post by Plantagenet Crown

First and foremost, admitting that this ideology is a problem, and not spouting the constant "this has nothing to do with Islam" narrative.

I don't find many people do say that now.

Reply 434

the bear

anyone who can use scripture to justify killing children is damned to hell

*

Reply 435

QE2

Original post by Fullofsurprises

or that we should abandon hope that Muslims generally can be reasoned with.

If you could reason with the religious, they would not be religious.

Reply 436

Craig1998

Given the sheer amount of people that have died using this method, and how seemingly basic it was to create (no illegal weapons like bombs for the most part), I genuinely would not be surprised if similar attacks happen in public gatherings with easy access to roads.

Reply 437

QE2

Original post by Fullofsurprises

I don't find many people do say that now.

You'd be surprised. I predict that the leaders of the main UK parties will all make statements to that effect.

Not to mention the overwhelming majority of Muslims, who are the ones who most need to address the issue.

Reply 438

Reformed

Original post by JM999

political correctness came about to protect against some previously unenlightened ( or ignorant) attitudes to different people. it must be said that it isnt all the vastly different races , ethnicities an cultures causing this problem in france, it stems from the uncontrolled spread of one form of ideology .