Is Scottish independence a 'good or bad' thing? Watch

Poll: Should Scotland be an independent country?
YES (299)
32.12%
NO (632)
67.88%
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MatureStudent36
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#4381
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#4381
(Original post by Kattt_452)
I didn't mean to liken it directly. I just meant that systems that have long been in place can be disbanded and replaced with something more equal according to the people. People should not have to put up and shut up.
People aren't expected to put up or shut up. Unless if course you're a resident of Menie stuck between Salmond and Trump where your opinions are steam rollered. Or possibly someone who is waiting for the Scottish government to answer to a freedom of information request that the SNP feel
obliged not to bother answering on a regular basis. Maybe even University lecturers receiving phone calls from SNP ministers telling them not to express their opinions.

That kind if steaming over ordinary people?
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MatureStudent36
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#4382
(Original post by Midlander)
He doesn't need to be a firebrand. He just has to do more than he is now.
Its not his job to sell anything. The Onus is on the yeSNP campaign.
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Kattt_452
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(Original post by Midlander)
My roots in the Midlands aren't at all far from Wales, but it's probably university where I've thought about this the most, with decent numbers from both places. More so with the Northern Irish-they are the ones who genuinely have suffered the most for staying in the union and if anybody should be getting independence, it should be them. They after all have had British soldiers on their soil in military occupation-things in Scotland have never been that bad. It's not acceptable to say 'well the Scots aren't to blame'-you are displaying the same arrogance you accuse Westminster of when you exclude them from any talk of independence.

We had three straight terms under Blair in between Major and Cameron-so it's hardly a trend. The unpleasant reality for you is that when the UK has prospered, so has Scotland-this goes back to the days of Empire and as recently as the boom years under Blair. All parts now are struggling, not just Scotland, and there is precious little the SNP can do about that when the country runs at a deficit of billions even with their calculation of oil income. You complain about illegal wars yet building ships for the navy has kept thousands on the Clyde in employment.

You can try and portray the UK has some evil entity which Scotland needs to get shot of for its own good, but, even as an Englishman, I will be voting no because I genuinely think Scotland already has it quite good.
http://news.stv.tv/scotland/249886-r...dent-scotland/ - yes, and we will still have a naval base, it just won't be at the disposal of Westminister for bombing purposes. Yes I do complain because I actually care about the lives of innocent people in other countries.

Westminister is that entity and that's what we need 'shot of'. It's utterly corrupt.
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MatureStudent36
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#4384
(Original post by Kattt_452)
http://news.stv.tv/scotland/249886-r...dent-scotland/ - yes, and we will still have a naval base, it just won't be at the disposal of Westminister for bombing purposes. Yes I do complain because I actually care about the lives of innocent people in other countries.

Westminister is that entity and that's what we need 'shot of'. It's utterly corrupt.
I'm confused as to what point you're trying to make here.

Is is the job losses at Rosyth that we'll see?
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Midlander
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(Original post by Kattt_452)
http://news.stv.tv/scotland/249886-r...dent-scotland/ - yes, and we will still have a naval base, it just won't be at the disposal of Westminister for bombing purposes. Yes I do complain because I actually care about the lives of innocent people in other countries.

Westminister is that entity and that's what we need 'shot of'. It's utterly corrupt.
If you care about the lives of innocent people in other countries you may care about them being charged £9k a year in tuition fees in defiance of EU law just so that Scots continue to get a free ride. Seems as though discrimination is fine as long as it isn't going Scotland's way.
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L i b
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#4386
(Original post by Kattt_452)
What a hateful lot some of you are. I'm sorry but it has to be said. This Better Campaign is suffused with negativity - you'll find that for the most part, SNP's campaign is suffused with positivity.
I'm not sure constantly attacking your opponents, claiming that the UK Government is terrible - indeed, that it 'punishes' and 'attacks' disabled people as the SNP claimed today - suggesting that Britain is somehow a debt-ridden basket case, painting 'Q' (for 'quisling', incidentally) on unionist MPs offices, calling our national flag the 'Butcher's Apron' in emulation of the IRA or pretending that unionists cannot really support devolution is the way to suffuse a campaign with positivity.

Indeed, you go on to do it yourself. Those who suggest the Better Together campaign is negative are usually the ones who are most negative themselves.

The Better Together campaign (and most of you folk on here) have a real "Scotland can't do" attitude that you keep hammering towards us. The truth is, you can debate all you like but it has nothing to do with you.
Telling people that an idea is crap is not a "can't do" attitude, it's saying that a particular suggestion is poor. In this case, it is. More holes in it than a Swiss cheese.

That's not a matter of "can't do", it's a matter of "bloody well shouldn't do".

Clearly Midlander and Lib, the likes of the bedroom tax and have no impact on you whatsoever. Because you are comfortable enough you are quite free to sit behind your computer tapping away while families live off of food banks thanks to the poverty we've been dragged into, while the rich keep getting richer. You don't know, and probably never will know what it is like to be so far oppressed that things need to change and you have to break free
The "bedroom tax" doesn't exist. People who underoccupy social housing are expected to downsize or pay a small well-below-market contribution to their rent. I have a one-bedroom flat. I can't afford to have a spare bedroom - I don't see why I should be paying for someone else's when there are two million people on waiting lists and 250,000 people in overcrowded social housing waiting for larger homes to be freed up.

So, no, I'm not one of the 80,000 people affected: a tiny fraction of the Scottish population. A safe bet.

But others aren't quite yet. I hope that the Scottish people take that leap of faith next year - otherwise I would seriously struggle to continue living in this country thereafter.
I see you're incredibly positive about Scotland's likely future again. So positive, in fact, that you apparently won't be able to live here any more. No doubt when Scottish people turn down your lovely offer, you'll be condemning them as idiots too.

Well, the problem isn't with them being slow learners; the problem is with the nationalists.
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L i b
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#4387
(Original post by Kattt_452)
Just because? Just? Are you telling me it's okay to brutally murder innocent people and then think it's okay to be 'fickle' when desiring to be set apart from such an inhumane action? It it far from fickle.
What a sickening attack on the UK's armed forces. I, for one, will not take that sort of nonsense from a person who supports a party which, in the war, had its leaders interned for collaborating with the Nazis.

It's utterly disgusting to equate legitimate conflict with murder.

As for all this 'illegal war' nonsense: firstly, the Iraq war wasn't illegal, secondly it brought down a tyrant, and thirdly it was carried out by a government and Prime Minister who were both overwhelmingly popular in Scotland - far more so than in England.

Look, Midlander, when it comes down to it Westminister is a mess, a mess that is adversely affecting both Scotland and England.
I'd say Holyrood is far, far worse than Westminster will ever be. Half of the backbenchers are barely literate, the standard of debate is terrible and the institution is completely unable to provide reasonable scrutiny of the executive.
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MatureStudent36
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(Original post by L i b)
I'm not sure constantly attacking your opponents, claiming that the UK Government is terrible - indeed, that it 'punishes' and 'attacks' disabled people as the SNP claimed today - suggesting that Britain is somehow a debt-ridden basket case, painting 'Q' (for 'quisling', incidentally) on unionist MPs offices, calling our national flag the 'Butcher's Apron' in emulation of the IRA or pretending that unionists cannot really support devolution is the way to suffuse a campaign with positivity.

Indeed, you go on to do it yourself. Those who suggest the Better Together campaign is negative are usually the ones who are most negative themselves.



Telling people that an idea is crap is not a "can't do" attitude, it's saying that a particular suggestion is poor. In this case, it is. More holes in it than a Swiss cheese.

That's not a matter of "can't do", it's a matter of "bloody well shouldn't do".



The "bedroom tax" doesn't exist. People who underoccupy social housing are expected to downsize or pay a small well-below-market contribution to their rent. I have a one-bedroom flat. I can't afford to have a spare bedroom - I don't see why I should be paying for someone else's when there are two million people on waiting lists and 250,000 people in overcrowded social housing waiting for larger homes to be freed up.

So, no, I'm not one of the 80,000 people affected: a tiny fraction of the Scottish population. A safe bet.



I see you're incredibly positive about Scotland's likely future again. So positive, in fact, that you apparently won't be able to live here any more. No doubt when Scottish people turn down your lovely offer, you'll be condemning them as idiots too.

Well, the problem isn't with them being slow learners; the problem is with the nationalists.
A bloody good post. I have you a green thumbs up type thing, but felt it needed a personalised well done.
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MatureStudent36
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(Original post by L i b)
What a sickening attack on the UK's armed forces. I, for one, will not take that sort of nonsense from a person who supports a party which, in the war, had its leaders interned for collaborating with the Nazis.

It's utterly disgusting to equate legitimate conflict with murder.
For some unknown reason I don't seem to be able to cut and paste workable URL links. But I think some people need to Google the following.

international Security Assistance Force.
NATO training mission - Iraq
Multi national forces Iraq
2011 Military intervention in Libya.


Pretty much every country that the Nation has said we should aspire to be like is involved that. In fact every one the SNP have mentioned have been involved in at least one. Most at least two and Norway and Denmark all three.

I served with Norwegian and Danish Troops in both Iraq and Afghanistan. They had No questions about the legality of their mission, neither did I.

As you quite rightly say though Lib. All of those all had support from Scotland and in many ways were sanctioned by Scottish politicians.

You've forgot to mention that the SNP were happy to stand aside and allow Genocide to happen in KOsovo. Norway and Denmark were involved in that one as well.
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Left Hand Drive
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#4390
(Original post by Midlander)
Unfortunately for you some of us work in Scotland.


Posted from TSR Mobile

So?
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Left Hand Drive
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#4391
Did anyone watch Nicola Sturgeon destroy alistair carmichael?

She won because she is right.
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L i b
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(Original post by Left Hand Drive)
Did anyone watch Nicola Sturgeon destroy alistair carmichael?

She won because she is right.
No, and I sincerely doubt she did. The purpose of a debate is to put forward a case, not to 'win' or 'destroy' anything. What you presumably mean is that she shouted a lot.
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Left Hand Drive
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(Original post by L i b)
No, and I sincerely doubt she did. The purpose of a debate is to put forward a case, not to 'win' or 'destroy' anything. What you presumably mean is that she shouted a lot.

Of course it is. and she did. She refuted all his questions and he was unable to answer hers. Did you even watch it?

Why do you unionist dismiss things without even looking into them?
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Cannotbelieveit
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TBH I would have felt David Cameron would be able to handle Salmond better in a debate than Darling, but here's Darling's chance to prove me wrong. It will be interesting to see how it turns out in the end, but whatever happens I'll be having my Union Flag flying out the window in the weeks leading up to the day.
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Midlander
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(Original post by Left Hand Drive)
So?
So we get to vote. 1+1=2 and all that. Speaking of voting, why do 16 and 17 year olds get to vote in the referendum but never again? I thought the fat bigot promised a fairer Scotland without English tyranny?


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Midlander
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(Original post by Cannotbelieveit)
TBH I would have felt David Cameron would be able to handle Salmond better in a debate than Darling, but here's Darling's chance to prove me wrong. It will be interesting to see how it turns out in the end, but whatever happens I'll be having my Union Flag flying out the window in the weeks leading up to the day.
'Here is an Englishman telling Scots what's best for them' is what Salmond would say in such a debate so Cameron likely sees it as playing into his hands.


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Left Hand Drive
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(Original post by Midlander)
So we get to vote. 1+1=2 and all that. Speaking of voting, why do 16 and 17 year olds get to vote in the referendum but never again? I thought the fat bigot promised a fairer Scotland without English tyranny?


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English tyranny? What do bitter together camp keep mentioning things like this?
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MatureStudent36
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(Original post by Cannotbelieveit)
TBH I would have felt David Cameron would be able to handle Salmond better in a debate than Darling, but here's Darling's chance to prove me wrong. It will be interesting to see how it turns out in the end, but whatever happens I'll be having my Union Flag flying out the window in the weeks leading up to the day.
Cameron isn't allowed to vote in it. Salmond requested the referendum be run in Scotland for Scottish voters. He's abiding by the Scottish governments request to keep out.

We also know that the first thing Salmond would say is something along the lines of 'he's not even from around here' or something equally narrow minded.
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Cannotbelieveit
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(Original post by MatureStudent36)
Cameron isn't allowed to vote in it. Salmond requested the referendum be run in Scotland for Scottish voters. He's abiding by the Scottish governments request to keep out.

We also know that the first thing Salmond would say is something along the lines of 'he's not even from around here' or something equally narrow minded.
True, I bet Salmond would love nothing better than to play the English vs Scots or nasty Tory cards.
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MatureStudent36
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(Original post by Cannotbelieveit)
True, I bet Salmond would love nothing better than to play the English vs Scots or nasty Tory cards.
He'd love to. But this is too important a topic for cheap Political point scoring.

If he did though there's other hidden nasties that could be brought up such as:-

Thatcher receiving more votes in Scotland than Salmond.
Salmond wanting to share a platform with Sinn Fein in 79.
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