The Arsenal Thread XXIV watch

(Original post by swirly)
tfw you pm WeOnlyLiveOnce a fiyah stream and he doesnt even say thanks

Was on my phone so cant see notifs bruh.

(Original post by AliRizzo)
A tap in and a pen from Lionel Messi, but he'll get some weird plaudits by people who don't watch the game.

If a player doesn't get plaudits for single-handedly deciding an away match against a title contender in the supposed "best league in the world" in the CL knock-out rounds, we have reached an unrealistic and spoilt level of expectations that only resembles that of the sensationalist media that were slated off in this thread before the match.

leaving Messi free to score a tap in

It was a decent goal from him because of his first touch and the little pause he took to control the ball instead of directly taking the shot, causing Cech to go down. If he had taken the shot directly like you would for a tap in, Cech would most likely have saved it. No doubt it suicidal to leave Messi open and the defending for the entire counter was bad, but if he had gone for the standard first-time "tap in" like you suggest, it could easily not have ended in a goal.

Even ignoring the goals, I think he put in a decent but not vintage performance in midfield, some nice combinations, runs, good contribution to build-up play; the only way he doesn't deserve plaudits is by his own amazing standards, not objectively.

(Original post by AliRizzo)
as if I'd take anything he says seriously. A journo asked him the other day what he says to MSN before games and he replied 'Abracadabra, what am I supposed to say to them?' which speaks volumes. [...]
Hmm I expect you don't watch Barcelona then

No need for the comments, even though your example is strange (what would he have said anyway? It's a stupid question that required a stupid answer). If you do watch Barcelona like you imply here, the way the game went would have reminded you of most of the recent Barcelona games; namely a dire first-half performance with the intensity only improving after half time, around the 60th minute mark. You can argue whether it's game plan, or each of those teams using the same approach and succeeding for one half, or a way of conserving energy, or tiredness with their congested schedule, but it certainly is a pattern that wasn't outrageously different in this match (even if it almost backfired if it weren't for ter Stegen and Busquets, but then chances were missed on both sides).

It's always difficult to determine cause and reaction in games like these, and different fanbases will say different things. I do think Arsenal did a good job and caused Barcelona problems to break them down especially in the first half, so it'd be unreasonable to assume that your approach didn't play a part in dictating the game, but similarly, it was evident Barcelona were not approaching the game with as many guns blazing as they'd be capable of, be it due to fitness, caution, strategy, whatever. It's probably more ambivalent and rather a mix of both things, but that doesn't take any credit away from you.

(Original post by AliRizzo)
Enrique is a shite w*nker who's reputation is built off MSN. I wouldn't be surprised if he just tells them to go out and do their thing

I suppose this is more knee-jerk than anything else but for the record, you'd be naive to think that "MSN" would have worked like they do in the pre-Enrique set-up and that their combined individual brilliance would have been enough to secure that amount of success without detailed managerial planning and man-management. Since you claim to watch Barcelona, surely you have seen the half a season that it took the team and players to adapt to the changed tactical set-up and completely shift their year-long, 'native' focus on creativity in midfield to support the attacking line, with many problems on the way.

In general, to think that any manager with that amount of success (winning a treble while beating the champions of all big European leagues) just got lucky with his players is always naive.

(Original post by AliRizzo)
Enrique is a shite w*nker who's reputation is built off MSN. I wouldn't be surprised if he just tells them to go out and do their thing, as if I'd take anything he says seriously. A journo asked him the other day what he says to MSN before games and he replied 'Abracadabra, what am I supposed to say to them?' which speaks volumes.

So they had an off day if Suarez missed two sitters? Hmm I expect you don't watch Barcelona then cos Suarez is notorious for missing great chances, just check their last game against Palmas. The final ball was dire because our structure was narrow and we pressed high, in comparison to around the 70th min when we broke ranks and implemented suicidal defending which handed them the tie. Also explains the penetrating you're talking about, Messi did go deep several times in the first half but struggled to weave his way through as Coq/Ramsey would help out Monreal.

MSN was completely shut off today and it's a shame Monreal won't get the credit he deserves for stifling Messi for a good 70 mins before that w*nker Mertesacker tries to intercept like the donkey he is and so leaves a gap and forces Monreal to track Neymar, hence leaving Messi free to score a tap in. Before that Messi had 0 chances and only scored the pen after. A tap in and a pen from Lionel Messi, but he'll get some weird plaudits by people who don't watch the game.

This is moronic

(Original post by David Brent.)
This is moronic

OK.

(Original post by Vae)
x

I was hugely frustrated yesterday and so a lot of what I wrote was a result of that. With regards to the 'Messi tap in' I was more angry that we allowed the best player in the world to decide the game so easily after we had stifled him for so long (unless you believe it was their plan to sit back and concede great chances..). As a result it will get a lot of media attention and bashing from rival fans who, as Gary Neville once said, 'watch the game, but don't see the game'. For the record I completely agree with what you said about him doing well to take the touch before the shot as he knew Cech would go down, still doesn't take away the fact that the chance was handed to him on a silver platter, which of course is a result of our own undoing.

It's also quite easy to say that the game followed a regular pattern (or more laughably, a game plan) of them being more subdued in the first half and bursting to life in the second. However, if Ox takes his chance then we probably wouldn't be having this conversation and instead would be discussing how well Arsenal did to keep MSN out of the game, which I thought we did extremely well in the first 45.

About Enrique, I was blunt and of course not entirely serious. He obviously has a sizable effect on this team but to what extent I do not know. Would he be anywhere near as successful without that triumvirate, or, more specifically, the sheer genius that is Lionel Messi? We'll never know.

Well of course a manager is going to be more successful with a player like Messi than without them.

It's like saying would Wenger have been successful if he didn't have the likes of Henry/Viera and co saving them. Or would Jose have been successful at Chelsea if he didn't have Robben/Terry/Drogba/Carvalho in 2005 or Hazard from 13/15.

Although it does go to show, how much of a teams performance is down to the manager and how much is down to the innate ability of the players.

(Original post by jam277)
Well of course a manager is going to be more successful with a player like Messi than without them.

It's like saying would Wenger have been successful if he didn't have the likes of Henry/Viera and co saving them. Or would Jose have been successful at Chelsea if he didn't have Robben/Terry/Drogba/Carvalho in 2005 or Hazard from 13/15.

Although it does go to show, how much of a teams performance is down to the manager and how much is down to the innate ability of the players.

The difference being that Henry/Vieria are Wenger's own signings and they were unknown quantities when he signed them. That's down to Wenger's brilliance and initative. Messi saving Enrique's ass isn't.

(Original post by swirly)
Doesn't sound good for the Ox. Apparently 10 hours later he still can't find his first touch.

legend has it that hes still rolling after the mascherano challenge

(Original post by AliRizzo)
The difference being that Henry/Vieria are Wenger's own signings and they were unknown quantities when he signed them. That's down to Wenger's brilliance and initative. Messi saving Enrique's ass isn't.

So Enrique has to unearth hidden gems at a club like Barcelona(even though he's been utilising young players like Roberto/Munir/Rafinha from the youth academy)?

Would argue that Henry was clearly a known quantity as well considering he was in the 98 WC squad, as was Viera, which was why they were both playing at Juventus and Milan respectively.

Also Bergkamp(who Wenger didn't sign) was at Inter and was attracted by most top european teams. You could easily say that Bergkamp saved his ass too.

More credit goes to Wenger for developing them.than Enrique with Suarez e.g, but don't act like these were complete unknowns who would have never made it at a top club when both of those players had already won a world cup and were at 2 of the best teams in europe.

Anyway, teams best players save a managers skin, who would have known? Guess Godin and Costa saved Atlético's ass in 2014 and it wasn't because of the great team performances and exceptional management that won Atlético the title and got them to the CL final.

(Original post by Kim-Jong-Illest)
legend has it that hes still rolling after the mascherano challenge

A football net is 192 ft sq. Marc-André ter Stegen is 6' 1.5" tall and let's be generous and say 2.5 feet wide. That's 15.31 ft sq.Ter Stegen was laying on the ground. Even if we give him full value that still left Ox 176 sq ft of empty net to shoot at.8% of the net was covered.

Where did he put the ball?

(Original post by jam277)
So Enrique has to unearth hidden gems at a club like Barcelona(even though he's been utilising young players like Roberto/Munir/Rafinha from the youth academy)?

Would argue that Henry was clearly a known quantity as well considering he was in the 98 WC squad, as was Viera, which was why they were both playing at Juventus and Milan respectively.

Also Bergkamp(who Wenger didn't sign) was at Inter and was attracted by most top european teams. You could easily say that Bergkamp saved his ass too.

More credit goes to Wenger for developing them.than Enrique with Suarez e.g, but don't act like these were complete unknowns who would have never made it at a top club when both of those players had already won a world cup and were at 2 of the best teams in europe.

Anyway, teams best players save a managers skin, who would have known? Guess Godin and Costa saved Atlético's ass in 2014 and it wasn't because of the great team performances and exceptional management that won Atlético the title and got them to the CL final.

Wrong. Vieira and Petit were signed before France won the WC and they were definitely an unknown quantity and Henry had a bit part to play in the WC. He was also transformed by Wenger from a failed winger to the greatest striker the premiership has ever seen. There are countless of examples of incredible signings Wenger made for little or no money. Petit, Vieira, Henry, Anelka, Campbell, Nasri, Fabregas, Van Persie off the top of my head. Bergkamp also failed at Inter and was considered a massive gamble when Arsenal bought him, not sure about this attraction to top european clubs narrative you're spouting because it's nonsense.

It's always going to be harder for the manager of Barcelona to gain much credit when he has 3 out of 4 of the best players in the world on his team, of course. He can't be compared to Wenger in that aspect at all, regardless as to whether that's his fault or not. The only time we'll be able to observe Enrique's influence is when he leaves.

(Original post by AliRizzo)
Wrong. Vieira and Petit were signed before France won the WC and they were definitely an unknown quantity and Henry had a bit part to play in the WC. He was also transformed by Wenger from a failed winger to the greatest striker the premiership has ever seen. There are countless of examples of incredible signings Wenger made for little or no money. Petit, Vieira, Henry, Anelka, Campbell, Nasri, Fabregas, Van Persie off the top of my head.

It's always going to be harder for the manager of Barcelona to gain much credit when he has 3 out of 4 of the best players in the world on his team, of course. He can't be compared to Wenger in that aspect at all, regardless as to whether that's his fault or not. The only time we'll be able to observe Enrique's influence is when he leaves.

Regardless Viera still was at AC Milan at the time so clearly he was highly rated. Also I was not saying that Wenger didn't find gems. It's just that Barcelona do not need to find gems for cheap because.

1) They can get them from the academy.
2) They are currently not in a financial situation where they need to find gems unlike Arsenal over the years.

Also you telling me a player who had a bit part role in a WC winning team at the age of 21 while playing at Juventus(where he wasn't bad considering he was bought for £11M in 1999) isn't a quality signing. Yeah he found a few gems and I didn't disagree with that point. I am more disagreeing with the point that Enrique is just winning because he has MSN.

You can have a good team with good players that are simply being mismanaged/unmotivated, Chelsea this season being the most obvious example.

(Original post by jam277)
Regardless Viera still was at AC Milan at the time so clearly he was highly rated. Also I was not saying that Wenger didn't find gems. It's just that Barcelona do not need to find gems for cheap because.

1) They can get them from the academy.
2) They are currently not in a financial situation where they need to find gems unlike Arsenal over the years.

Also you telling me a player who had a bit part role in a WC winning team at the age of 21 while playing at Juventus(where he wasn't bad considering he was bought for £11M in 1999) isn't a quality signing. Yeah he found a few gems and I didn't disagree with that point. I am more disagreeing with the point that Enrique is just winning because he has MSN.

You can have a good team with good players that are simply being mismanaged/unmotivated, Chelsea this season being the most obvious example.

Fu*king lol. Why do you talk about stuff you have no knowledge about? A quick wiki search shows Vieira was at Milan for a year and made 2 appearances for the first team, he played mainly for the reserves. Henry made 16 appearances and scored 3 goals. Was also at Juve for only 8 months. I remember Wenger saying in an interview that there was a lot of confusion in England as to why such a high fee was paid for Henry in 1999. They were clearly not highly rated by these so called top European clubs, drop the argument.

I'm not saying Enrique needs to find gems to prove he's a top manager as I said in my last post and will expand on. There's more to being a top manager than just motivating your team which is what I'm trying to say here. It's undoubtedly an important quality to possess to be able to last so long in the job as Wenger has proven and Mourinho hasn't. Enrique didn't ask to be in this position but I doubt he's upset about it. He has the best team in the world at his disposal and is winning games left right and centre, he doesn't need to prove himself to anyone at this moment in time. That doesn't change the fact that he's definitely getting an easier ride than most other managers have. Wenger has had to prove himself through thick and thin and has done so, and that's why he's rated as a top manager and why I believe Enrique hasn't been able to prove he has the qualities of a top manager.

Giroud is world class

(Original post by AliRizzo)
Fu*king lol. Why do you talk about stuff you have no knowledge about? A quick wiki search shows Vieira was at Milan for a year and made 2 appearances for the first team, he played mainly for the reserves. Henry made 16 appearances and scored 3 goals. Was also at Juve for only 8 months. I remember Wenger saying in an interview that there was a lot of confusion in England as to why such a high fee was paid for Henry in 1999. They were clearly not highly rated by these so called top European clubs, drop the argument.

The wiki search shows that he was at AC Milan, which was the entire point I was making. Not that he was starting games for Milan, but simply the fact he was there shows that they rated him somewhat. He left at the age of 20. I got the time he came to Arsenal wrong, but he was at AC Milan for a year which was the point I was making.

Henry was playing on the wing but he says himself that his performances for Juventus were quite good considering all the circumstances(playing out of position, started scoring near end of the season) and he had only been there for a few months which was part of the high fee.

Plus if you're paying 11M in 1999, that's not a cheap unknown you're getting(although he did turn out to be worth much more than that). And the fact he was clearly starting for Juve and played in the WC for France at a young age shows he was highly rated, by Arsenal and Juventus at the very least.

I'm not saying Enrique needs to find gems to prove he's a top manager as I said in my last post and will expand on. There's more to being a top manager than just motivating your team which is what I'm trying to say here. It's undoubtedly an important quality to possess to be able to last so long in the job as Wenger has proven and Mourinho hasn't. Enrique didn't ask to be in this position but I doubt he's upset about it. He has the best team in the world at his disposal and is winning games left right and centre, he doesn't need to prove himself to anyone at this moment in time. That doesn't change the fact that he's definitely getting an easier ride than most other managers have. Wenger has had to prove himself through thick and thin and has done so, and that's why he's rated as a top manager and why I believe Enrique hasn't been able to prove he has the qualities of a top manager.

Ofc he gets an easier ride with the team he has in some senses. Maybe if Wenger was in charge of this Barcelona side he'd be doing similar, who knows. You'd also argue that the Barcelona team won nothing the year before he came and he's improved them to a whole new level, like Guardiola did in 08-12.

He doesn't need to prove himself to anybody yet you are saying he just gets his ass saved by MSN? Clearly you feel like he does need to prove himself?

(Original post by jam277)

He doesn't need to prove himself to anybody yet you are saying he just gets his ass saved by MSN? Clearly you feel like he does need to prove himself?

I'm a nobody lol. In the world of football, he doesn't need to prove himself to anyone. History will tell of the success he had with this team, not the circumstances.

scenes when jam thinks he's qua

(Original post by AliRizzo)
I'm a nobody lol. In the world of football, he doesn't need to prove himself to anyone. History will tell of the success he had with this team, not the circumstances.

In all honesty, I don't see Enrique there for a long time as the Barcelona job is very stressful. As are the Real and Bayern jobs.

I think an issue with a club that is generally always near the top regularly means that there is a lot of stress in the role. If you get sleeping giants like United and Liverpool to the top, you tend to get less stress as a manager and a lot more leeway despite having a couple bad seasons.

When you manage a club that is chaired by somebody that measures success by trophies, chances are you won't stay beyond the season if you win nothing at the end of it.