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The Arsenal Thread XXIV watch

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    (Original post by swirly)
    scenes when jam thinks he's qua
    tbf Ali is the one who's trying to start a fight with everyone in the club after this girl who he'd planned months for rejected him. I didn't get a reply btw xx AliRizzo
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    (Original post by Vae)
    If you do watch Barcelona like you imply here, the way the game went would have reminded you of most of the recent Barcelona games; namely a dire first-half performance with the intensity only improving after half time, around the 60th minute mark. You can argue whether it's game plan, or each of those teams using the same approach and succeeding for one half, or a way of conserving energy, or tiredness with their congested schedule, but it certainly is a pattern that wasn't outrageously different in this match (even if it almost backfired if it weren't for ter Stegen and Busquets, but then chances were missed on both sides).

    It's always difficult to determine cause and reaction in games like these, and different fanbases will say different things. I do think Arsenal did a good job and caused Barcelona problems to break them down especially in the first half, so it'd be unreasonable to assume that your approach didn't play a part in dictating the game, but similarly, it was evident Barcelona were not approaching the game with as many guns blazing as they'd be capable of, be it due to fitness, caution, strategy, whatever. It's probably more ambivalent and rather a mix of both things, but that doesn't take any credit away from you.
    Turnitin would flag this as plagiarism on me
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    (Original post by AliRizzo)
    I was hugely frustrated yesterday and so a lot of what I wrote was a result of that. With regards to the 'Messi tap in' I was more angry that we allowed the best player in the world to decide the game so easily after we had stifled him for so long (unless you believe it was their plan to sit back and concede great chances..). As a result it will get a lot of media attention and bashing from rival fans who, as Gary Neville once said, 'watch the game, but don't see the game'. For the record I completely agree with what you said about him doing well to take the touch before the shot as he knew Cech would go down, still doesn't take away the fact that the chance was handed to him on a silver platter, which of course is a result of our own undoing.
    Yeah, I reckoned a lot of your points were said in the post-game heat. I get what you're saying, but my point was also that regardless of Messi's countable success in the final third and the lack of it in the first half, he was probably Barcelona's best player due to his involvement in the other areas, which, in turn, tend to go more unnoticed/unmentioned (just liked Neymar's involvement in build-up play on the left). Tbh, based on his recently looking a bit tired and compared with other games where he's marked like that and Barcelona struggle to break down the opponent, I was surprised by how much he was involved in midfield, for example.

    (Original post by AliRizzo)
    About Enrique, I was blunt and of course not entirely serious. He obviously has a sizable effect on this team but to what extent I do not know. Would he be anywhere near as successful without that triumvirate, or, more specifically, the sheer genius that is Lionel Messi? We'll never know.
    We won't, that's why me making a claim in this direction is just as hypothetical as you making one in the other. But, different managers face different challenges. I'm not sayng that with his squad, Lucho doesn't have it easier to succeed at the highest level than others, but at the same time, there are other factors that come into play that don't make his success a self-automated guarantee. Otherwise, Real's galácticos policy would have paid off much more often and wouldn't have required Ancelotti's management to finally succeed.

    Spoiler:
    Show

    When Lucho took over, he was presented a squad that contained three of the biggest forward stars in the game - certainly not a punishment, but also not the easiest task for a relatively unproven manager that didn't yet have to deal with stars of that calibre and their egos, let alone so many of them. Football-wise, despite the (justified) expectation that in one way or the other their individual class would shine through eventually, there was no guarantee whatsoever that the three of them would work out in combination, chemistry-wise, character-wise, play-wise, whatever, especially, if Lucho were just to go on with the set-up at the time, which wasn't groomed AT ALL to incorporate three dominant forwards.

    Their individual skill doesn't make man-management a no-brainer either. Both Vilanova and Martino didn't manage to keep up Messi's fitness levels, and under both of them, his role was changed to being a more true 9 one, which, in 2012, improved his scoring stats for a while, but reduced his overall involvement, burdening him more individually and making him more isolated. Enrique has managed to improve both things despite him and Messi not getting along during his first months.

    On top of that, he had the task to find a system that is not based around Xavi and Iniesta as much and the personnel he had for that wasn't guaranteed to be a success either. Rakitic was great for Sevilla but wasn't a no-brainer profile as much as e.g. Gündogan, Thiago etc; similarly, Rafinha and Sergi Roberto were still big, big question marks. He groomed both of them very well, turning Sergi Roberto into a technical, extremely versatile all-arounder, which seemed VERY unlikely at first, and overall turning Rafinha into the promise he was before being injured.


    These things may not seem as romantic as what Wenger has done and you may not consider them as important, but at the same time, we don't know whether e.g. Wenger would have done as well as him in Enrique's place. Different managerial skills are required for both roles. I think he's done well so far, dunno where I would rank him compared with other top managers though, we'll see in a couple of season's time.

    Having Messi is a strange variable though, yeah. Not a coincidence that Barcelona's biggest era of success collides with Messi at his peak. Not sure whether that takes much credit away from Pep & Lucho.
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    (Original post by Pimped Butterfly)
    Turnitin would flag this as plagiarism on me
    Dream on
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    Damn this gumbo I made is tasty.

    Damn shame I ran out of shrimp.
    (Original post by shawn_o1)
    When you manage a club that is chaired by somebody that measures success by trophies, chances are you won't stay beyond the season if you win nothing at the end of it.
    I do think some sentimentality is required.

    If Real were doing consistently poor(as in not make top 4) for years then you got a manager that got them to win la liga they would have more sentimentality to that manager. Clough with Forest e.g. would have probably been sacked in 1985 at this day and age.
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    (Original post by Vae)
    He groomed both of them very well, turning Sergi Roberto into a technical, extremely versatile all-arounder, which seemed VERY unlikely at first
    Doubt many will remember this, but you called it. Mad props
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    (Original post by Vae)
    If you do watch Barcelona like you imply here, the way the game went would have reminded you of most of the recent Barcelona games; namely a dire first-half performance with the intensity only improving after half time , around the 60th minute mark [me: Straight after half time, they turned the screw more, and put more men forwards, and we saw more Messi-Iniesta-Neymar interplay, which was obviously bad for Arsenal].
    You can argue whether it's game plan [me: Ball retention and tentative probing without committing and allowing a counter was the name of the game], or each of those teams using the same approach and succeeding for one half, or a way of conserving energy, or tiredness with their congested schedule [me:which was done with energy conservation in mind, I'd guess.], but it certainly is a pattern that wasn't outrageously different in this match[me: This is a known Barcelona tactic].

    I do think Arsenal did a good job and caused Barcelona problems to break them down especially in the first half, so it'd be unreasonable to assume that your approach didn't play a part in dictating the game [me: You defended well], but similarly, it was evident Barcelona were not approaching the game with as many guns blazing as they'd be capable of, be it due to fitness, caution, strategy, whatever. [all covered by me] It's probably more ambivalent and rather a mix of both things, but that doesn't take any credit away from you.[me:You didn't play badly at all, in fact I agree you played well first half]
    get your own ideas pal
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    Wengers ideology has failed anybody who knows football can see that
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    (Original post by Vae)
    Dream on
    thats a rek :rofl: Pimped Butterfly
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    (Original post by Pimped Butterfly)
    tbf Ali is the one who's trying to start a fight with everyone in the club after this girl who he'd planned months for rejected him. I didn't get a reply btw xx AliRizzo
    lolllll, love arguing with strangers over the internet me.

    Tl;dr. jk in a bit.
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    (Original post by Pimped Butterfly)
    Lol
    Notice how I put Suarez missing sitters and Barca having an off day as separate points. Regular misser of sitters or not, Suarez has 41 goals in February. You can definitely count his poor form in front of goal today as a piece of unexpected luck. And likewise, Barca's creation wasn't anything special even when they got going second half. Maybe down to you guys, who knows. Suarez and Neymar's misses still count this as an off day.
    To an extent, but also an early crossing strategy from Barcelona and more direct play, which was done with energy conservation in mind, I'd guess. Barca played it very patiently in the first half, never committing whilst going forwards (and thus never allowing you to commit on the counter). Straight after half time, they turned the screw more, and put more men forwards, and we saw more Messi-Iniesta-Neymar interplay, which was obviously bad for Arsenal. Then they became nervous slightly, you pushed forward recklessly to try and relieve the pressure, and that's when they can counter, and that's when they can score. This is a known Barcelona tactic. You're obviously emotional over losing and watching your plastic middle class fanbase walk out when they could be witnessing their team/the greatest front three ever, but try and keep your head.
    Lol nah, he was chilling and pretty calm on his wing. This wasn't the Messi that was ready to pick up the ball at every possible moment and pull strings/**** **** up. He was calm first half, Iniesta was calm first half, Neymar and Suarez were calm first half. Ball retention and tentative probing without committing and allowing a counter was the name of the game. You restricted them to mainly just that missed Suarez sitter but only after they'd intentionally stifled themselves first. Alves and Alba's reluctance to speed past their wingers was notable.
    You defended well, but nonsense that you're ignoring their clear gameplan in the first half. lol so?
    Eh. If Suarez is notorious for missing good chances I'm not sure how it counts as a piece of bad luck when he continues to do it but we'll have to agree to disagree. He has 35 goals this season (league, CL and CDR stats) from 113 shots which is about a 31% conversion rate, so you expect him to score from every 1 in 3 shots approximately, which actually is quite good. I thought Neymar had a real off day though, he was the most disappointing out of the three amigos yesterday, but again Ox and Bellerin didn't make it easy for him at all in that first half.

    You say they never really committed in the first half but I can remember at least 3 good counter attacking opportunities we had? There was a 3 on 3 at one point because one of their players committed high up the pitch and got caught out, then Ox took a donkey touch and collided with Mascherano. Yeh I was a bit emotional for a number of reasons but I don't think their 'game plan' was as intentional as you do. Firstly, consider the scenario where we lost the ball. Coquelin and Bellerin were getting cold feet in the corner and passed back to the centre halves. The crowd got frustrated and when Coquelin picked the ball up he attempted to cross into the box. Easily cleared by (Pique?) and then I think again cleared wildly to Neymar. Then the counter begins. I don't believe that was intentional at all, and us losing discipline makes the counter look a lot more exciting than it should have been.

    Again, I don't think they were as relaxed in the first half as you do. They were certainly probing and tried balls over the midfield several times but went either out of play or to an Arsenal player. Not sure which game you watched because I saw Alba and Alves on the wings several times during the first 45 but the balls were ineffective and Cech was always ready. As I said in the first half we had about 3 good counter opportunities so even if that was their game plan it didn't work well at all and they should have been down but for our pathetic composure in the final third.

    Monreal is boss, just wanted to give him the credit he deserves. Not having that shite about Messi deciding to turn up when he feels like it.
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    The worst thing in life is when Mertesacker comes out after a game we lost and talks nonsense. He said yesterday we deserved nothing from the game in the post match interview. The guy is the biggest f*cking loser to ever play for this club. Imagine Adams and or Vieira saying that after a game fffffs especially when that big f*cking oaf is the reason we lost. Man I hate him so much.
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    I'm trying to look into injuries. Obviously physioroom is a good site:

    http://www.physioroom.com/news/engli..._injuries.html

    But they only list the date when the injury was recorded; they don't have information about how long each player was out. Do you know where I can find that information?
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    Jam on the back ropes and he plays it off as rustling/trolling again.

    Never change.
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    (Original post by David Brent.)
    Jam on the back ropes and he plays it off as rustling/trolling again.

    Never change.
    Just that I never actually said I was rustling or trolling...

    Hows Benitez btw?
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    Would like AOC and Walcott gone in the summer tbh and replaced by someone who is not absolutely aids.Neither have improved a bit since they were 18. Probably get £50m for the pair as well, ludicrously

    Ramsey 2013/14 quite clearly a fluke now as well, the guy is nothing more than a squad player and needs upgrading too probably. Obviously Jack Wilshere should come back into the XI ASAP or even Cazorla/Rosicky
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    (Original post by Zürich)
    Would like AOC and Walcott gone in the summer tbh and replaced by someone who is not absolutely aids.Neither have improved a bit since they were 18. Probably get £50m for the pair as well, ludicrously

    Ramsey 2013/14 quite clearly a fluke now as well, the guy is nothing more than a squad player and needs upgrading too probably. Obviously Jack Wilshere should come back into the XI ASAP or even Cazorla/Rosicky
    F*ck me he's not dead.

    Saying Ramsey is nothing more than a squad player is literally something shawn would say.
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    Ramsey is easily replaceable though.


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    Ramsey is a let down tbh. Decent player overall but not one you'd want if you were aiming for titles.
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    I will be more angry if we sell Ramsey than I was when I first saw that 'Gooners and we're gunning' aids
 
 
 
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