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Doctor Who - Discussion Thread III (no untagged future spoilers) watch

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    Agreed!
    The worst thing about Moffat is that it's like he wants his companion to be the best. Clara this clara that. Good example of this is Listen the ending was awful!

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    Clara is awful. She was introduced badly shes made to important...(yes i'm talking to you Listen).


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    They played doctor who at the new year fireworks in London! Wahey


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    (Original post by tomtjl)
    The issue now with Clara is that she is embedded into the Dr's timeline. Surely that must mean that some form of her stays with the Doctor until he dies?
    The timeline she jumped into only ran up until his death at Trenzalore though so surely she can depart him now?
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    (Original post by Dalek1099)
    The timeline she jumped into only ran up until his death at Trenzalore though so surely she can depart him now?
    "only ran up to his death" - surely this means that she is in his timeline for his entire life, from the moment he is born to the moment he dies? That was my interpretation of it, anyway .
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    (Original post by getfunky!)
    :mmm: it has that effect, it's just missing a Christmas hat!
    Nearly epiphany though...gotta de Christmas before then!
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    Clara is terrible. Seems to me the only witty vocabulary she has is "Shut up", even that wears thin. No characterisation, the whole Impossible Girl angle collapsed horribly and the same wooden, mechanical dialogue each episode. Moffat's fault, not JLC's, he hasn't changed the dialogue structure between the characters in years.
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    (Original post by tomtjl)
    "only ran up to his death" - surely this means that she is in his timeline for his entire life, from the moment he is born to the moment he dies? That was my interpretation of it, anyway .
    Well technically that never happened now because he didn't die at trenzelore, so there was no time wound for them to go to, for her to end up jumping in to.

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    (Original post by Stiff Little Fingers)
    Well technically that never happened now because he didn't die at trenzelore, so there was no time wound for them to go to, for her to end up jumping in to.

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    I thought he still died on Trenzalore though, he just didn't die at that particular point? You're probably right, but that means he would never have met Clara, so I've no idea what's going on in the timeline now.
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    (Original post by tomtjl)
    I thought he still died on Trenzalore though, he just didn't die at that particular point? You're probably right, but that means he would never have met Clara, so I've no idea what's going on in the timeline now.
    I don't think so - he was supposed to die at Trenzalore, then they changed that last Christmas with a whole new regeneration cycle, so that means that she didn't need to go into his timeline on Trenzalore, because it's no longer there.

    No, she met him twice and died in other versions of her, but the actual her was set up with him by Missy, so they'd presumably still meet, because that wasn't one of these timeline copies of her.
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    (Original post by Stiff Little Fingers)
    I don't think so - he was supposed to die at Trenzalore, then they changed that last Christmas with a whole new regeneration cycle, so that means that she didn't need to go into his timeline on Trenzalore, because it's no longer there.

    No, she met him twice and died in other versions of her, but the actual her was set up with him by Missy, so they'd presumably still meet, because that wasn't one of these timeline copies of her.
    I'd forgotten about that, good point! .
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    Moffat's a great writer. For Clara you can blame the BBC's Feminist regime.
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    (Original post by KingStannis)
    Moffat's a great writer. For Clara you can blame the BBC's Feminist regime.
    I disagree about moffat especially in light of some of the terrible episodes this season like the forest one. I think moffat wants to target children and is therefore ruining the show by making it too babyish! I had such high hopes when capaldi said he was going to bring a darker side to the doctor, but all I've seen is him bring out a more arrogant and irritating side instead!

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    My view of Series 8 :

    Amazing Episodes :
    Dark Water

    Decent Episodes:
    Time Heist
    Mummy on the Orient Express
    Flatline

    Poor Episodes (more could have been done / story was a bit meh):
    Into the Dalek
    Listen
    The Caretaker
    Kill the Moon
    Death in Heaven

    Awful Episodes:
    Deep Breath
    Robot of Sherwood
    In the Forest of the night




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    (Original post by KingStannis)
    Moffat's a great writer. For Clara you can blame the BBC's Feminist regime.
    Erm not sure what you mean about this. Clara is very far from a character written by a feminist to promote any kind of agenda. She's pretty un-feminist actually.
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    (Original post by greeneyedgirl)
    Erm not sure what you mean about this. Clara is very far from a character written by a feminist to promote any kind of agenda. She's pretty un-feminist actually.
    At least on a superficial level, Clara is a character dead set on serving the function of being oh so independent, strong etc, and it's just annoying and contrived. I have no problem with so called "independent women" (presuming this doesn't in fact translate to "Xena Warrior Princess") however, when the character in no way strikes me as a human being, and instead is some kind of gender-political fashion statement, then I have a problem.

    How is she unfeminist? Overtly independent? Check. Overtly non passive? Check. Overtly more adept than the men she is surrounded by? Check. Half of the crap "banterous" dialogue involving Clara are just deliberately set up cliches which Moffatt subverts in order to make Clara look like a strong women. It's almost admirable. However it results in the shows most cringe worthy moments "Speak for me again and i'll cut your balls off *repeats what the Dr said (paraphrased)". Ugh. It wouldn't be a problem if you just remove "Overtly" before the adjectives.

    Or why am I wrong?
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    (Original post by KingStannis)
    At least on a superficial level, Clara is a character dead set on serving the function of being oh so independent, strong etc, and it's just annoying and contrived. I have no problem with so called "independent women" (presuming this doesn't in fact translate to "Xena Warrior Princess") however, when the character in no way strikes me as a human being, and instead is some kind of gender-political fashion statement, then I have a problem.

    How is she unfeminist? Overtly independent? Check. Overtly non passive? Check. Overtly more adept than the men she is surrounded by? Check. Half of the crap "banterous" dialogue involving Clara are just deliberately set up cliches which Moffatt subverts in order to make Clara look like a strong women. It's almost admirable. However it results in the shows most cringe worthy moments "Speak for me again and i'll cut your balls off *repeats what the Dr said (paraphrased)". Ugh. It wouldn't be a problem if you just remove "Overtly" before the adjectives.

    Or why am I wrong?
    http://whovianfeminism.tumblr.com/po...xie-dream-girl
    http://feministfiction.com/2013/03/2...-clara-oswald/

    Crush on the doctor - check
    Plot device just to save the doctor - check
    Lack of human-ness - check
    Solely made up of tropes - check

    She's not human, she's not real, and she's far from a feminist's dream!
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    I quite liked the Christmas special tbh... #SPOILER BELOW

    I didn't have much hope initially since Santa was involved but it turned out that it didn't make him out to be real so i'm glad about that. I liked the dream-within-dream concept although I had a feeling that must have been inspired by Inception or something <_< at least Clara and the Doctor made up


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    (Original post by greeneyedgirl)
    http://whovianfeminism.tumblr.com/po...xie-dream-girl
    http://feministfiction.com/2013/03/2...-clara-oswald/

    Crush on the doctor - check
    Plot device just to save the doctor - check
    Lack of human-ness - check
    Solely made up of tropes - check

    She's not human, she's not real, and she's far from a feminist's dream!
    I agree that she's not human; that's always been my problem with her.

    She loses her crush on the DR when he gets old looking = women have sexual tastes too = feminist rhetoric.

    She saves the Dr to make her, a female character, look like the main hero. That is a typical post feminist device. This is genre fiction anyway; any character that isn't a plot device is out of the ordinary.

    Lack of humanness; i've explained my thoughts on this already.

    She's actually an inversion of loads of tropes; hence an overtly feminist mouth piece.


    The whole her choosing Danny the wet blanket Pink over the Dr is supposed top show how independent she is blah blah blah. Pink is specifically given a masculine identity (soldier etc) with a jarringly emasculate personality just so Clara can take a "masculine" role and be dominant over him to appease feminism. The whole thing's a feminist construction.

    Those articles, aside from being wrong, are out of date and redundant. Clara starts off as a product of one of Moffat's too clever by half plots, and those articles are commenting on her development then, not now.
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    (Original post by KingStannis)
    I agree that she's not human; that's always been my problem with her.

    She loses her crush on the DR when he gets old looking = women have sexual tastes too = feminist rhetoric.

    She saves the Dr to make her, a female character, look like the main hero. That is a typical post feminist device. This is genre fiction anyway; any character that isn't a plot device is out of the ordinary.

    Lack of humanness; i've explained my thoughts on this already.

    She's actually an inversion of loads of tropes; hence an overtly feminist mouth piece.


    The whole her choosing Danny the wet blanket Pink over the Dr is supposed top show how independent she is blah blah blah. Pink is specifically given a masculine identity (soldier etc) with a jarringly emasculate personality just so Clara can take a "masculine" role and be dominant over him to appease feminism. The whole thing's a feminist construction.

    Those articles, aside from being wrong, are out of date and redundant. Clara starts off as a product of one of Moffat's too clever by half plots, and those articles are commenting on her development then, not now.
    Look at actual feminist writing and you'll see how different their characters are from Clara Oswald. Also just look at the Bechdel test, how can Clara be feminist when her episodes aren't?!

    Explanation from my friend who is more eloquent than me
    The problem isn't so much with get character as it is with the problematic writing of Moffat about her character. The Doctor is constantly pointing out how she is getting old, less likely to meet a man, and cracking about her clothing choices. The episodes see about how Clara truly needs the Doctor in ask ways physical because whenever she is called upon to do something like fight, they make it comic relief until a man saves her.The only qualities that she has that gives her superiority are classic feminine tropes such as good with children, caring, understanding, emotional, empathetic, and being the Doctor's conscience. This is balanced by her apparent lack of battle strategy and physical prowess. Adding to that, her costuming is (I'm fairly certain) always skirt and heels.
    While it is important to remember as feminists that some people have these traits in real life and that is perfectly okay, as a character without a choice in the matter, her being stereotypically feminine to contrast the Doctor's masculinity is a patriarchal trope.
    In fact, all of Moffat's women, including River Song, are problematic because he always only writes women as accessories to the Doctor, damsels needing to be saved instead of truly equal partners like in the Davies series.
 
 
 
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