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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    And there are ways to show how bad the move is beyond losing, suppose it's '31 all over again? Pretty sure the left isn't surviving that, and you might even be able to argue that Labour itself may not. An extreme example, but more what I was thinking rather than a mere loss, which is expected.
    Theres no way itll be another 31. You could argue it could be like 83 but I feel that was less down to Foot than people make out. Id say an extreme loss is more likely under Kendall anyway as her speaking ability would hinder inrodes in the South and her pro cuts stance could lose a lot in the north.
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    (Original post by United1892)
    Ok we wont win in 5 years anyhow.
    Unfortunately there isn't an appetite for socialism in the UK at the moment, "when the cottages are happy the castle is safe". Voting for Corbyn would see Labour return to true, decent values and if he were elected as PM in 2020 would return some fairness and compassion to a cut-throat, divided and selfish country. But that's not going to happen cause in all honesty, the majority of people are alright under a Tory govenrnment and don't care enough about the minority who aren't.

    The rest of the contenders are crap, Burnham is too desperate and Milibandified, Kendal is more right wing than Blair and I don't know where Mrs. Balls stands to be honest. 2020 won't be labour's election with one of those at the helm.

    In 10 years time the Tories will have sold off most state owned assets to the private sector, possibly even the NHS. It is only then, in USA-lite UK that with a decent left wing leader (see Richard Burgon) there is any chance of Labour returning to power and restoring some sort of social justice to the sort of dystopia created by the choking 'invisible hand' of the 'free' market the Tories will let loose.

    Either that or Boris will take over and spend the defence budget on water cannons.
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    (Original post by LibertineDream)
    Unfortunately there isn't an appetite for socialism in the UK at the moment, "when the cottages are happy the castle is safe". Voting for Corbyn would see Labour return to true, decent values and if he were elected as PM in 2020 would return some fairness and compassion to a cut-throat, divided and selfish country. But that's not going to happen cause in all honesty, the majority of people are alright under a Tory govenrnment and don't care enough about the minority who aren't.

    The rest of the contenders are crap, Burnham is too desperate and Milibandified, Kendal is more right wing than Blair and I don't know where Mrs. Balls stands to be honest. 2020 won't be labour's election with one of those at the helm.

    In 10 years time the Tories will have sold off most state owned assets to the private sector, possibly even the NHS. It is only then, in USA-lite UK that with a decent left wing leader (see Richard Burgon) there is any chance of Labour returning to power and restoring some sort of social justice to the sort of dystopia created by the choking 'invisible hand' of the 'free' market the Tories will let loose.

    Either that or Boris will take over and spend the defence budget on water cannons.
    This is depressingly accurate.
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    (Original post by United1892)
    No I mean Government. Hes our best chance of getting back.
    We need him to push Labour far to the left. It will wash out millions in the north and flood them over to UKIP. The Labour Party will be purified and only consist of far left radical voters like it should be.
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    Nothing proves we need Corbyn more than Harmon supporting Osborne's cut to tax credits
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    (Original post by That Bearded Man)
    Nothing proves we need Corbyn more than Harmon supporting Osborne's cut to tax credits
    Lol'd at Harmon.
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    (Original post by RayApparently)
    Lol'd at Harmon.
    What a farce. A disgrace.
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    (Original post by That Bearded Man)
    What a farce. A disgrace.
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    (Original post by LibertineDream)
    Unfortunately there isn't an appetite for socialism in the UK at the moment, "when the cottages are happy the castle is safe". Voting for Corbyn would see Labour return to true, decent values and if he were elected as PM in 2020 would return some fairness and compassion to a cut-throat, divided and selfish country. But that's not going to happen cause in all honesty, the majority of people are alright under a Tory govenrnment and don't care enough about the minority who aren't.

    The rest of the contenders are crap, Burnham is too desperate and Milibandified, Kendal is more right wing than Blair and I don't know where Mrs. Balls stands to be honest. 2020 won't be labour's election with one of those at the helm.

    In 10 years time the Tories will have sold off most state owned assets to the private sector, possibly even the NHS. It is only then, in USA-lite UK that with a decent left wing leader (see Richard Burgon) there is any chance of Labour returning to power and restoring some sort of social justice to the sort of dystopia created by the choking 'invisible hand' of the 'free' market the Tories will let loose.

    Either that or Boris will take over and spend the defence budget on water cannons.
    Perhaps slightly extreme in places and inaccurate in others, but hardly an inaccurate prognosis overall.
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    (Original post by That Bearded Man)
    Nothing proves we need Corbyn more than Harmon supporting Osborne's cut to tax credits
    The whole tax credit system is farcical though and largely dissuades people taking on extra hours. Most of the people who work under my father will downright refuse to do any overtime because the tax credit system will have them working for, effectively, less than the apprentice rate. Tax credits do little good for this country, twas just a big con by Mr Brown to try to satisfy a large portion of the population who didn't actually think about the consequences.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    The whole tax credit system is farcical though and largely dissuades people taking on extra hours. Most of the people who work under my father will downright refuse to do any overtime because the tax credit system will have them working for, effectively, less than the apprentice rate. Tax credits do little good for this country, twas just a big con by Mr Brown to try to satisfy a large portion of the population who didn't actually think about the consequences.
    For some people, yes. But that ignores the low income families who rely on it, which to me far outweighs the overtime point. (Break it down more progressively if needed)

    As opposition I expect "opposition"
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    Labour Needs its own ideology not Blairism or anything old.

    The Demographics of the country have changed since 2005 we have more self employed peopled, more commuter towns , rise of nationalism in Scotland, smaller public sector.

    You need a new ideology for present not repackage the old.

    Austerity will be over by 2020 we shouldnt fight yesterdays war today.
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    (Original post by That Bearded Man)
    For some people, yes. But that ignores the low income families who rely on it, which to me far outweighs the overtime point. (Break it down more progressively if needed)

    As opposition I expect "opposition"
    Let's look at the figures
    Currently, if I were a single person and earnt £10,000 per annum I would pocket £11,069
    If I then worked longer and had an income of £15,000 about half of that would be pocketed (here the changes would give me £11 a month extra)
    But why should I do that? If I were irresponsible and had a child I could work not a second longer and take home an extra £6412, so I get paid over six grand for being irresponsible.
    Now, if I were then to work and earn an extra £5000 I would only take home £1,350 of it
    Work a bit more and get up to £20k, again, only pocket £1350of it
    AND AGAIN, now I'm on £25k gross income, and still only pocked £1350 of that extra 5k.
    After that point it looks like the cahnges are the extra income minus taxes and NI.
    So, what could I do? If, instead of working to earn £25k instead of £10k, I was irresponsible again and had another child I would end up with a similar net income.

    So tax credits encourage irresponsible behaviour rather than work

    And while we're at it, let's look at hour ****ed up child benefit is. The means tested element doesn't work on the basis of the household, rather the individual. So if household A has two parents earning £49,99.99 and household B has a single parent earning £60k, household B would get nothing while household A, despite earning about 66% more, would receive full child benefit (the threshold should be much lower imo, but that's a different matter. I also think there are better ways of dealing with the problem rather than benefits)
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    The whole tax credit system is farcical though and largely dissuades people taking on extra hours. Most of the people who work under my father will downright refuse to do any overtime because the tax credit system will have them working for, effectively, less than the apprentice rate. Tax credits do little good for this country, twas just a big con by Mr Brown to try to satisfy a large portion of the population who didn't actually think about the consequences.
    I agree they're overblown but but I think a broad brush approach is not the answer. The markets will not adjust to this and the demand side (not to mention people) will suffer.
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    (Original post by APlantinga)
    I agree they're overblown but but I think a broad brush approach is not the answer. The markets will not adjust to this and the demand side (not to mention people) will suffer.
    The answer is to get rid if tax credits and replace them with reasonable benefits where appropriate.
    Hell, if we want to reduce things like single parents, by which really I mean children born if adultery, there are two simple solutions, don't provide benefits to children born out of wedlock, or have Sufism services take them away.

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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    The answer is to get rid if tax credits and replace them with reasonable benefits where appropriate.
    Hell, if we want to reduce things like single parents, by which really I mean children born if adultery, there are two simple solutions, don't provide benefits to children born out of wedlock, or have Sufism services take them away.

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    (Original post by The two eds)
    We need him to push Labour far to the left. It will wash out millions in the north and flood them over to UKIP. The Labour Party will be purified and only consist of far left radical voters like it should be.
    I'd say Labour going right with Kendall will lose more to Ukip/Greens than Corbyn would lose.
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    (Original post by United1892)
    I'd say Labour going right with Kendall will lose more to Ukip/Greens than Corbyn would lose.
    I disagree. We need 80% of our voter gains to be from the Tories to win.

    The Greens and UKIP will leak votes to Labour now multiparty politics is now no longer seen as possible.
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    (Original post by APlantinga)
    I disagree. We need 80% of our voter gains to be from the Tories to win.

    The Greens and UKIP will leak votes to Labour now multiparty politics is now no longer seen as possible.
    Now what youve read on the Fabian website is all well and good but can you see Kendall who is awful at public speaking and has consistently dropped in the polls for who should be next leader the more shes on tv could persuade all these voters to leave their very similar Conservative Party and come over to us.

    Ukip could coplapse within the next years but with more austerity coming the only way that the Greens will stop growing is if Corbyn becomes our leader which would bring many to us.
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    (Original post by United1892)
    Now what youve read on the Fabian website is all well and good but can you see Kendall who is awful at public speaking and has consistently dropped in the polls for who should be next leader the more shes on tv could persuade all these voters to leave their very similar Conservative Party and come over to us.

    Ukip could coplapse within the next years but with more austerity coming the only way that the Greens will stop growing is if Corbyn becomes our leader which would bring many to us.
    She can improve public speaking. And the Parties wouldn't be similar. What we'd have is a manifesto that actually has policies. Forgetting about tuition fees, and stopping the fact that you can't get good GCSEs if you don't go to nursery is so BOLD, and so RIGHT. We have 4 years to win people over with the arguments. Not to mention, the shadow cabinate would have people like CHukka and Jarvis; they will convince people on newsnight. Also, she's a woman. That should get a % of the monster raving feminist vote, although I hope she doesn't use it to go down this road of male discrimination.

    Nah the Greens will leak votes as the door has been slammed shut on the politics of hope. And good riddance. And UKIP are anti left wing, and have 5 times the voting power of the Greens.
 
 
 
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