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    Sorry can't see anything

    (Original post by Tawheed)
    Surah Yusuf- the best of stories.

    On a side note, i am going to be spending a lot of time trying to answer the claim that Muhammed pbuh copied from the Gospel of Infancy, which is believed to have possibly been in arabic around his time.

    I have it here: http://biblehub.com/library/unknown/...pel_of_the.htm

    My hypothesis is:

    1. It could be that those who wrote it retained the oral traditions of the past, and the truth with regards to certain facts.

    2. Similarity does not mean one copied from another. We believe there were already previous scriptures. The fact a portion of truth is retained is of no challenge to Islam at all.

    3. If i am to find that in the entire gospel, there are fundamental differences between the Quran and it- this will greatly damage the claim Muhammed pbuh copied it.


    Stay tuned for my findings.
    Insha'Allah when I get time I'll definitely write abut that surah, it's one of my favourite surahs
    Reading upon surah Waqi'ah it takes a lot of time as I read the Quran first then the English translation to it and I'm half way through watching videos on the tafseer of surah Waqi'ah they are very long 2+ hours.

    Very interesting topic - I'm very intrigued to see what you come up with it


    (Original post by beautifulxxx)
    Have you read the tafseer? I hope I don't sound rude sis, but how do you know you explanation is correct?
    They're very long
    I've just finished part 1
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    The basic meaning of Khushu' is the softness of the heart, it's being gentle, still, submissive, broken, and yearning. When the heart is humble, so too is the hearing, seeing and face; indeed all the limbs and their actions are humbled, even speech. This is why the Prophet (saw) would say in his bowing (ruku), "My hearing, sight, bones, and marrow are humbled to You," another narration has, "and whatever my foot carries." One of the Salaf saw a man fidgeting in his prayer and remarked, 'If the heart of this person was humble, so too would his limbs be.' The source of the Khushu, that takes place in the heart is the gnosis of Allah's greatness, magnificence, and perfection. The more gnosis a person has of Allah, the more Khushu' he has. The greatest action of worship which manifests the Khushu of the body to Allah is the prayer (Salaah). Allah has praised those who have Khushu' in the prayer.

    (The humility in prayer - Ibn Rajab al-Hanbali )

    Brothers, I'm sure we all see other brothers fidgeting and fixing up their clothes in salaah. Remind them of this :yes:
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    Posted from TSR Mobile

    I find it pretty sad you are going on this thread to take snippets and mock it on your own thread.I don't get why you and people on this thread do that.Yes, you know who you are ex and non ex.
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    (Original post by Kadak)
    Posted from TSR Mobile

    I find it pretty sad you are going on this thread to take snippets and mock it on your own thread.I don't get why you and people on this thread do that.Yes, you know who you are ex and non ex.
    Sorry? Whose this aimed at?
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    Salam, I'm new here >.<
    I have literally spent hours debating with the ignorant on stuff
    about Islam so now... Its time for a change :grin: *Fist Pump*
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    (Original post by IdeasForLife)
    Sorry?
    Ex muslims like generic man on Ex muslims thread and some muslims on this thread.Simply do what physicists do as Brian Greene, don't talk with people that irritate you.No need to copy and paste on one thread and bring to another. What's the probability this comment will get copy and pasted and be mocked on Ex tsr thread or talked about? Very high indeed.
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    (Original post by K1NG93)
    Masha'Allah very nice.
    Thank you Zayan bro
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    (Original post by Lepton :))
    The basic meaning of Khushu' is the softness of the heart, it's being gentle, still, submissive, broken, and yearning. When the heart is humble, so too is the hearing, seeing and face; indeed all the limbs and their actions are humbled, even speech. This is why the Prophet (saw) would say in his bowing (ruku), "My hearing, sight, bones, and marrow are humbled to You," another narration has, "and whatever my foot carries." One of the Salaf saw a man fidgeting in his prayer and remarked, 'If the heart of this person was humble, so too would his limbs be.' The source of the Khushu, that takes place in the heart is the gnosis of Allah's greatness, magnificence, and perfection. The more gnosis a person has of Allah, the more Khushu' he has. The greatest action of worship which manifests the Khushu of the body to Allah is the prayer (Salaah). Allah has praised those who have Khushu' in the prayer.

    (The humility in prayer - Ibn Rajab al-Hanbali )

    Brothers, I'm sure we all see other brothers fidgeting and fixing up their clothes in salaah. Remind them of this :yes:
    That...was...beautiful :cry2:
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    (Original post by Kadak)
    x
    Lol. I don't think any of us have copied anything in a while.Forget them bro. Haters gna be hating, if people are upset over our posts then it's their problem


    Anyway, how are you doing?
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    (Original post by Amazing!!)
    Beautiful Nasheeds Mashallah
    JZK-K
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    (Original post by Amazing!!)
    Mashallah Amazing posts Sister
    Jazaaki Allahu khaayr for sharing :yy:
    Thank you for your kind words, May Allah reward you to
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    (Original post by The Green Manalishi)
    Assalamu Alaikum, how's everyone doing?
    Wa'alaykumasalaam, doing good alhamdulillah, how about yourself?
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    (Original post by Incredible97)
    Maths is Awesome!!

    :yy:

    (Original post by Amazing!!)
    x
    Wa'alaykumasalaam
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    (Original post by ilovereading)
    x
    Wa'alaykumasalaam and welcome to the TSR Isoc

    Lol. It can certainly drag.
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    Walaykum asalaam
    Hope you're well
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    (Original post by IdeasForLife)
    Wa'alaykumasalaam and welcome to the TSR Isoc

    Lol. It can certainly drag.
    I FEEL WELCOME
    Do you guys watch any good Muslim youtubers? I like
    https://www.youtube.com/user/TheMercifulServant
    https://www.youtube.com/user/lebo2196
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    Surah 19:29-34:
    So she pointed to him. They said, "How can we speak to one who is in the cradle a child?" [Jesus] said, "Indeed, I am the servant of Allah . He has given me the Scripture and made me a prophet. And He has made me blessed wherever I am and has enjoined upon me prayer and zakah as long as I remain alive And [made me] dutiful to my mother, and He has not made me a wretched tyrant. And peace is on me the day I was born and the day I will die and the day I am raised alive." That is Jesus, the son of Mary - the word of truth about which they are in dispute.

    THE ARABIC GOSPEL OF THE INFANCY OF THE SAVIOUR (Verse 2):
    He has said that Jesus spoke, and, indeed, when He was lying in His cradle said to Mary His mother: I am Jesus, the Son of God, the Logos, whom thou hast brought forth, as the Angel Gabriel announced to thee; and my Father has sent me for the salvation of the world


    Far from being proof Muhammed pbuh 'copied' there are actually significant differences between these accounts.

    1. In the Quranic version, Jesus pbuh never at all describes himself to be the son of God
    2. He does not talk about being a salvation for the world in the Quranic version
    3.There is no mention of Angel Jibrael (Gabriel) in the Quranic account within this verse
    4.The phrase 'peace be upon me the day i was born..etc' are not found in the syriac script which you use to compare to this verse
    5. Jesus pbuh in the Quran is the servant of God, a prophet of God who brings revelation, while in the syriac he is the son of God (God himself assumed as a human) etc

    As we can note, the verses are fundamentally different. The only 'commonality' you get is that Jesus PBUH spoke from birth by virtue of a miracle from God.


    (Surahs 3:49 and 5:110):
    And [make him] a messenger to the Children of Israel, [who will say], 'Indeed I have come to you with a sign from your Lord in that I design for you from clay [that which is] like the form of a bird, then I breathe into it and it becomes a bird by permission of Allah . And I cure the blind and the leper, and I give life to the dead - by permission of Allah . And I inform you of what you eat and what you store in your houses. Indeed in that is a sign for you, if you are believers.

    [The Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, remember My favor upon you and upon your mother when I supported you with the Pure Spirit and you spoke to the people in the cradle and in maturity; and [remember] when I taught you writing and wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel; and when you designed from clay [what was] like the form of a bird with My permission, then you breathed into it, and it became a bird with My permission; and you healed the blind and the leper with My permission; and when you brought forth the dead with My permission; and when I restrained the Children of Israel from [killing] you when you came to them with clear proofs and those who disbelieved among them said, "This is not but obvious magic."

    THE ARABIC GOSPEL OF THE INFANCY OF THE SAVIOUR (Verse 46):
    Again, on another day, the Lord Jesus was with the boys at a stream of water, and they had again made little fish-ponds. And the Lord Jesus had made twelve sparrows, and had arranged them round His fish-pond, three on each side. And it was the Sabbath-day. Wherefore a Jew, the son of Hanan, coming up, and seeing them thus engaged, said in anger and great indignation: Do you make figures of clay on the Sabbath-day? And he ran quickly, and destroyed their fish-ponds. But when the Lord Jesus clapped His hands over the sparrows which He had made, they flew away chirping. Then the son of Hanan came up to the fish-pond of Jesus also, and kicked it with his shoes, and the water of it vanished away. And the Lord Jesus said to him: As that water has vanished away, so thy life shall likewise vanish away. And immediately that boy dried up.


    It is interesting to see that within the Quran, Jesus is mentioned raising people from dead, curing blind people and lepers, turning clay into a bird, speaking in his cradle etc... and all this can be found in the Syriac Infancy Gospel. So whilst the Quran's narrative of Jesus strays from the New Testament's gospel account of Jesus, it does not stray from the narrative of Jesus as presented by the Syriac Infancy Gospel.[/quote]

    Actually, none of this levels proof against Muhammed pbuh 'copying'. You see, Muslims assert that the bible and previous scriptures were once the word of God, but have undergone a lot of distortion, editing, changing, new books being added or false things being added to modify truths. A portion may retain some truth, but we have to examine it.

    You see, we find cases of Jesus pbuh making birds of clay into one that gain life in earlier texts.

    Such as in the gospel of Thomas.

    As an example, we may actually point to Jesus' clay-bird miracle in the Infancy Gospel of Thomas, which states:
    When this boy, Jesus, was five years old, he was playing at the ford of a rushing stream. (2) He was collecting the flowing water into ponds and made the water instantly pure. He did this with a single command. (3) He then made soft clay and shaped it into twelve sparrows. He did this on the sabbath day, and many other boys were playing with him.
    (4)But when a Jew saw what Jesus was doing while playing on the sabbath day, he immediately went off and told Joseph, Jesus' father: "See here, your boy is at the ford and has taken mud and fashioned twelve birds with it, and so has violated the sabbath."
    (5)So Joseph went there, and as soon as he spotted him he shouted, "Why are you doing what's not permitted on the sabbath?"
    (6)But Jesus simply clapped his hands and shouted to the sparrows: "Be off, fly away, and remember me, you who are now alive!" And the sparrows took off and flew away noisily.
    (7)The Jews watched with amazement, then left the scene to report to their leaders what they had seen Jesus doing.

    Compare the above with the Quranic account. In two locations the Quran mentions this miracle. In Surah 3:49, we read:
    "And (appoint him) an apostle to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah's leave ...

    Then in Surah 5:110 we read:
    Then will Allah say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave ...



    Differences:

    The Quran does not mention the "soft" clay, the "twelve sparrows," Jesus' "clapping of hands" and his "crying" to the sparrows: "Be off..." It does not mention Jesus (peace be upon him) asking the sparrows to remember him and the sparrows noisily flying. In fact, the entire framework of the story is absent in the Quran (the sabbath story).

    If the Quran was dependent upon the Infancy Gospel of Thomas, why would its Author omit so much - He omitted everything except for mentioning the miracle of the clay-bird?




    Fundamental differences between Quran and Infancy Gospels

    1. 54. And from this day He began to hide His miracles and mysteries and secrets, and to give attention to the law, until He completed His thirtieth year, when His Father publicly declared Him at the Jordan by this voice sent down from heaven: This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; the Holy Spirit being present in the form of a white dove. [1801]

    55. This is He whom we adore with supplications, who hath given us being and life, and who hath brought us from our mothers' wombs; who for our sakes assumed a human body, and redeemed us, that He might embrace us in eternal compassion, and show to us His mercy according to His liberality, and beneficence, and generosity, and benevolence. To Him is glory, and beneficence, and power, and dominion from this time forth for evermore. Amen.


    1. The infancy gospels talk about God assuming a human body, being borne, something directly opposed in the Quran.

    2. Both the old texts and later texts contain miracles of Jesus pbuh. Just because something is not found in the canonical works does not mean it is 'legend'. It may have had earlier sources by which it could have been transmitted.

    3. Even in the events, the Quran barely at all copies anything. In fact, the Quran only mentions the miracle, without going into any detail of numbers, precise events etc.

    4. Muslims assert that the Quran and previous scriptures should have some commonality, as the previous ones or those adapted based on them may contain remnents of old tales which had some roots in truth, but were greatly edited, and interpolated, and new fabrications made.




    Another interesting point made:
    http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/do...as_Furthermore, just because the Infancy Gospel was authored in the second century that does not exclude the possibility that it might have included stories circulating during the first century.

    There is much doubt surrounding this book and where it has obtained its information from:


    No final judgment about the original form and content is possible.


    Even if the earliest version of this gospel remains uncertain (Helmut Koester, Ancient Christian Gospels, page 311-312)

    The individual stories themselves, however, may derive from the end of the first century-though there is no possibility of proving so early an origin for any of them. (F. Lapham, An Introduction to the New Testament Apocrypha, page 129)


    If there is even a possibility that some of the stories contained in this book could have come from the first century and be true, then Christians have no right to claim with a certainty that this story of Jesus (peace be upon him) speaking in the cradle is a forgery.

    Some Christians such as the early Islamic critic Tisdall tried to suggest that Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) plagiarized the story from Mary-the Copt who back in Egypt had access to the story of Jesus in the cradle, since it was either popular and she heard the story or she read the Coptic translation from the Arabic version of the Infancy Gospel (Injil Al-Tufuliyyah). However, this assertion is not convincing because:
    1) Possibility does not equal probability.
    2) No motive has been provided for Muhammad (peace be upon him) to plagiarize the story and doesn't fit in with his overall character as a sincere person, for his sincerity is recognized by almost all people who have studied his life (more on this below).
    3) The Qur'anic verse about Jesus in the cradle was revealed in Mecca, while the Prophet (peace be upon him) met Mary-the Copt only during the Medinan period.


    Closing remarks:

    1. The Quran teaches that previous scriptures of God were indeed once revelation but have been edited, drastically changed in many parts, new things invented being inserted, and over all distorted. Therefore some portion of the Bible, or texts based around Jesus pbuh or the bible, may have been rooted in truth, with new things added, distortions etc. Finding a similarity between them in no way proves Muhammed pbuh copied.

    2. There are fundamental differences. From the wordings used, what is being said. The only similarity one can see is on the act. I.E Jesus by miracle, made a clay bird into life. All the bits around it are not the same. This act is contained in 2nd century gospels, which could have had routes via oral tradition. Just because something is not in the canonical bible does not make it a fabricated legend. There are many more myths and legends contained not mentioned in the Quran. Concepts such as Jesus being the son of God, Jesus being God assuming a body, the entire philosophy of Jesus pbuh are wholly different.

    3. There is no way for one to say Muhammed pbuh therefore copied them. Ofcourse, as someone who does not believe he is a Prophet you can claim he copied the actual bible and the other versions we see. However, this itself deserves a debate - looking into why Muhammed pbuh is a prophet of God, comparing previous scriptures to the Quran, etc
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    (Original post by Incredible97)
    Thank you Zayan bro
    You are welcome sis
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    Islamic State militants 'burn to death 45 in Iraq'

    Jihadist militants from Islamic State (IS) have burned to death 45 people in the western Iraqi town of al-Baghdadi, the local police chief says.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-31502863
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    (Original post by ilovereading)
    Salam, I'm new here >.<
    I have literally spent hours debating with the ignorant on stuff
    about Islam so now... Its time for a change :grin: *Fist Pump*
    Wa'alaykum assalam! Welcome
 
 
 
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