Private Schools Ought to be Abolished Watch

Hopping Mad Kangaroo
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#441
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#441
(Original post by TheFatController)
lets not forget that parents who choose private education are actually saving the state money as they get no tax rebate
It costs us a lot when those idiots get a place in the civil service or wherever.
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CERECEREREVOLUTION
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#442
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(Original post by graffic)
You believe capitalist propaganda that because someone wears a suit and acts the big shot they are somehow intellectually superior to others. The majority of success in careers, excluding arts and science, is down to how you carry yourself, your attitude, your social skills. Private schooling is crucial in making you into a better person more "suitable" for "executive" roles.
We've gone over this earlier, that isn't the case.

It just goes to show how much lies the rich elite will make up to preserve their wealth.
You're going to have to redefine rich elite. The people I'd associate with those terms would be the upper class and are largely unimportant. Regardless, what he said is hardly mainstream thought at all so using that as evidence for your prejudices isn't very fair. Besides, why shouldn't people be allowed to have their own money?

Of course that's true but it doesn't justify buying privilege.
Yeah, freedom does that. Should we abolish all privilege because it's unequal? Perhaps we should ban expensive holidays since other people can't have them and it's unequal. At least you wrote a post not prefixed with swearing for once.
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Zerforax
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#443
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(Original post by graffic)
Not the case. Look at the credit crunch crisis we face today, we've ended up in this mess because the bankers are a bunch of fools. All human being's are mostly the same, most people would have done the same decisions Brown/Blair/bankers made and ended up ruining the economy.
Media scrap goating. They had a role to play but that was not the only factor which caused the credit crunch.
What about all those people who took out loans knowing they couldnt repay them?
Should we put them in charge of our country instead?
(Im talking eg US housing market slump with people borrowing more than they can afford)

History has shown time and time again that you have booms and slumps in the world economy that just cannot be controlled.
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MindTheGaps
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#444
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(Original post by graffic)
Trust me, don't talk about genetics in that way you almost sound like a nazi. I bet if you did an experiment and swapped a council house child with a rich child from birth you would be shocked at the results, well you wouldn't be shocked because it's pretty obvious.
Nice bit of Godwin's law there. Suggest a correlation between between the intelligence of parents and children and you're pretty much ******* Mengele.

The effects of genetics on physical characteristics are obvious, why do you assume mental characteristics would be any different? It's not eugenics and that you even make that connection is absolutely despicable.

I'm not saying the way you're brought up doesn't have an effect, it clearly does, but if intelligence is not hereditary how did it even evolve? Furthermore, why are you (supposedly) more intelligent than a dog?
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Zerforax
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#445
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(Original post by graffic)
Of course that's true but it doesn't justify buying privilege.
Except.. private school kids dont actually place an order and buy 10 A's.

You do realise that every student still does the same examinations?
A private school just brings together top resources (which they can afford to do because the fees pay for it) to help aid students achieve their potential.
It's the State's own fault for not being able to spend enough to bring standards up and with a label of 'fairness' the ideal solution is to bring everyone down to the same sub-standard levels?
Yea thats a great idea for our nations future :woo:
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CERECEREREVOLUTION
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#446
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(Original post by graffic)
No but we are not talking about intelligence per se. We are talking about buying privilege. I would still like to see someone make a clear argument why it's a good thing for people to buy privilege and to help propagate raging in-equalities.
I've already argued why private schools don't propagate raging in-equalities several times. The idea is you either go and refute those arguments or use a different line of argument. Good job with the weighted question anyway.

We should be able to buy privilege for the same reason we can buy just about anything: because we're a free country. Buying extra books pretty much counts as buying privilege, so does buying a house in a nice area counts as buying privilege. Should we ban people from moving houses just because their children will be better off as a result?

If someone is successful they can reward themselves or someone else in the way they deem fit. Freedom is the basis of our society and changing that is unjustifiably authoritarian. Besides, success yielding a better quality of life is pretty much one of the most important motivators in making people not sit around doing nothing all day. People can buy themselves and others privileges because they EARNED it.
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MindTheGaps
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#447
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(Original post by graffic)
No but we are not talking about intelligence per se. We are talking about buying privilege. I would still like to see someone make a clear argument why it's a good thing for people to buy privilege and to help propagate raging in-equalities.
Well for one thing the thing I quoted was talking about exactly that, but let's ignore that for the moment.

So, why the hell not? There are plenty of hard working families who work that bit harder so that they can send their child to get a better education. They work hard to earn money, private schools are willing to educate in return for that money, everyone involved is happy. If people can't spend that money for the good of their family what the hell can they spend it on?

Yes, it's not really fair to those of us who went to comprehensive schools, but so what? But who said fairness is the most important thing? The freedom to spend your own money as you will is far more important to me. At the end of the day I'm competing with these people for jobs, university places, etc, and this is a competition that should be done on the basis of what you can bring to work or a university, and should have nothing to do with the pathetic argument that 'but he had a better school than me, it's not fair'.

I also find it uncomfortable your line of argument would, if carried further, say that it isn't fair that my parents paid more attention to me and my education than many of my peers, and that should therefore be banned.
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CERECEREREVOLUTION
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#448
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(Original post by graffic)
It depends entirely on what you define as "success" and what you define as "freedom".
Success would be being someone that is in high demand and as a result ending up with money that you've earned. Freedom is being able to do what you want with what is yours.

If you apply your definition of "freedom" to the current economic climate only an elite minority have that "freedom"
People can do whatever they like with their money. If they don't have much then it's not the rest of society's fault for being more successful than they are.

and they are unjustifiably passing down that "freedom" (freedom to exploit) to their offspring by buying privilege.
You're going to have to explain where you get the exploitation from because to me it sounds like you're making stuff up. People have the right to buy their children privilege instead of spending it on a new car because it's their money and they care about their children. Being able to do what they want with their money is part of their freedom.

Maybe it's good for people to have the freedom to spend their money how they wish but if you stick with that ideology your basically touching on anarcho-capitalism which is all for your own "there is no society, there is only the individual". I believe in co-operation not confrontation and society working collectively with love and peace.
I believe in that too through a society with common ideals and morals based on compassion, without anyone being forced. Freedom and anarcho capitalism doesn't destroy society as society comes down to our values, not what we've been forced to do.

Within the logic you follow those who "succeed" in society are being separated from those who cannot, commonly called "lazy", "idle" or "stupid".
I didn't say that thanks. Some may be lazy, some may have chosen a way of life which evidence indicates is not going to yield success. That's their choice and is up to them. Success is based on many different things and stereotyping me as believing all those who are not successful to be lazy is somewhat unfair.

This is reactionary bourgeois ideology, implying those who do not live up to the "expectations" are dismissed, while at the same time they are used as a "negative" standard which others should avoid becoming. Whether you do "manual" or "intellectual" labour you shouldn't be labelled a failure because by this definition it is impossible for everyone to become a "success".
No idea what you're talking about. It's late and stuff. Success comes down to doing what people want. If you're doing what noone wants then that's fine but noone has the duty to give you what belongs to them.

So private education serves to crush the self-respect of the working class while simultaneously increasing the false sense of entitlement among the middle and upper classes. But yet no one bothers to question the logic of capitalism because "it works".
All those in the working class that I know don't care about private schools at all. You're going to have to explain that point again as I see no clear line of logic. I don't see where the merging of the capitalism and private schools arguments come in. It's late and I've had quite a lot of cider.

If you judge people you will have no time to love them, Mother Teresa
I don't judge anyone.

"Civil government, so far as it is instituted for the security of property, is, in reality, instituted for the defense of the rich against the poor, or of those who have property against those who have none at all." Adam Smith
[/quote]

That quote isn't remotely relevant in the modern context.

Apologies if nothing I said makes any sense, see my previous excuse a few lines above.
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Hopping Mad Kangaroo
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#449
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(Original post by CERECEREREVOLUTION)
Success would be being someone that is in high demand and as a result ending up with money that you've earned. Freedom is being able to do what you want with what is yours.
People are more free without private schools, or at least 93% of the population are.
People can do whatever they like with their money. If they don't have much then it's not the rest of society's fault for being more successful than they are.
People don't choose their parents and there are plenty of limitations with money.
You're going to have to explain where you get the exploitation from because to me it sounds like you're making stuff up. People have the right to buy their children privilege instead of spending it on a new car because it's their money and they care about their children. Being able to do what they want with their money is part of their freedom.
Thieving might be a better way of describing it.


All those in the working class that I know don't care about private schools at all. You're going to have to explain that point again as I see no clear line of logic. I don't see where the merging of the capitalism and private schools arguments come in. It's late and I've had quite a lot of cider.
Evidence?
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CERECEREREVOLUTION
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#450
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(Original post by Hopping Mad Kangaroo)
People are more free without private schools, or at least 93% of the population are.
Except they now don't have the choice to go for government financial help, a scholarship, or to just save more in order to go to a private school, even for just sixth form. Private schools don't oppress anyone.

People don't choose their parents and there are plenty of limitations with money.
People don't automatically have the right to have a good life.

Thieving might be a better way of describing it.
You can't steal what didn't belong to someone else.

Evidence?
I went to a comprehensive and noone I knew cared in the slightest if someone else had it better.
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Hopping Mad Kangaroo
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#451
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(Original post by CERECEREREVOLUTION)
Except they now don't have the choice to go for government financial help, a scholarship, or to just save more in order to go to a private school, even for just sixth form. Private schools don't oppress anyone.
They wreck the top universities by filling them full of the dim but highly educated.
People don't automatically have the right to have a good life.
People have the right to an equal chance at a good life.

You can't steal what didn't belong to someone else.
They are stealing places from those who actually deserve them at university along with the opportunities which follow. It is cheating.

I went to a comprehensive and noone I knew cared in the slightest if someone else had it better.
Takes a few more years for people to get pissed off about it, though plenty of my working class relatives think they are disgraceful.
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Liquidus Zeromus
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#452
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I still think this is ridiculous.

Private education gives you more choice and control over the course of your learning, and allows for innovation. It also gives many people jobs. Why shouldn't people be allowed that if they have the money? There should even be private education tax credits to allow people to pay for such things. It wouldn't cost you anything you wouldn't miss through tax anyway.
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CERECEREREVOLUTION
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#453
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(Original post by Hopping Mad Kangaroo)
They wreck the top universities by filling them full of the dim but highly educated.
I'll ignore the assumptions made concerning the link between intelligence and education. My main problem with that argument is that it seems like it's blaming private schools for something which is the fault of the university entrance procedures and exams (and possibly comprehensives). If you support the original proposition in the thread the exact same problems are going to happen except starting earlier and possibly worse due to more prevalent use of private tutoring.

People have the right to an equal chance at a good life.
They have the right to a minimum chance at a good life. If someone decides to use what they own to help someone else, that's up to them.

They are stealing places from those who actually deserve them at university along with the opportunities which follow. It is cheating.
Having a better education isn't cheating. It's more the people who run comprehensives are incompetent or purely concerned with their own careers, exams don't test the right things and university entrance procedure isn't ideal that is the problem. It's not the fault of the private sector if others can't do their jobs.

Is having pushy parents who encourage you to go to a grammar school/get a scholarship at a private school instead of sticking with going to a comprehensive cheating? Is living in an area with better schools in general and more people willing to learn cheating?

Takes a few more years for people to get pissed off about it, though plenty of my working class relatives think they are disgraceful.
Fun with jealousy. If I was going to be pissed off at anyone, it would be those who run the local comprehensives and sacrifice the welfare of students for their careers and those who shut down grammar schools.

Just wondering, what course are you/were you doing?
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The Referee
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#454
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(Original post by graffic)
And this is coming from someone who knows exactly what they are talking about having been to a private school thus being in the top 7 % of privately educated and never having to brush shoulders with the ordinary 93%. Or the offspring of "failures", if we go by the logic you used earlier.

Private education is socially irresponsible. It's makes society disenfranchised and hostile all because the rich don't want their precious ones mixing with the poor "scum" of the UK.

When you banter on about "freedom" of choice and "freedom" in society, being "the basis of society", or "freedom of choice" you forget that private schooling goes totally against any "freedom" in the market and workplace.

I quote:

What's the point of competing if the kid who was lucky enough to born into a rich family is ALWAYS going to be ahead of you, now matter how dumb/lazy he/she is or how smart/hardworking you are?


As i've illustrated through facts private education is a cartel on knowledge and access to resources. An insidious monopoly that has no social conscience.
Questions (I can't remember if I've asked you these before)

Do you believe in academic selection? If not, how are you going to ensure that those who are unusually gifted are not placed at a relative disadvantage due to their learning environment/lack of access to teachers trained to provide the specialist support needed in order for these students to reach their full potential? How are you going to ensure the protection from bullying that these students would almost certainly become a target of? An academically selective, private school is a relatively safe environment where these students can be pushed...are you going to try and tell me that EVERY state school will be able to ensure that they are not inhibited in their education?
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CERECEREREVOLUTION
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#455
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You think it's over but then everyone goes to sleep and boredom strikes.

(Original post by graffic)
And this is coming from someone who knows exactly what they are talking about having been to a private school thus being in the top 7 % of privately educated and never having to brush shoulders with the ordinary 93%. Or the offspring of "failures", if we go by the logic you used earlier.
I went to a comprehensive school aside from for sixth form. I'm pretty sure I'd already told you that numerous times. Most of the people I know from the private school also heavily socialised with people from state schools too so you'd be talking nonsense there even if I had gone to one for my entire life. The majority of private schools are nothing like Eton, funnily enough.

Private education is socially irresponsible. It's makes society disenfranchised and hostile all because the rich don't want their precious ones mixing with the poor "scum" of the UK.
No, they don't want the government run education. It's not socially irresponsible for reasons I'd already mentioned.

When you banter on about "freedom" of choice and "freedom" in society, being "the basis of society", or "freedom of choice" you forget that private schooling goes totally against any "freedom" in the market and workplace.
No it doesn't. I've already explained how the workplace isn't particularly affected by differences in education at a young age. The suggestion that it reduces freedom in the market is hilarious.

I quote:

What's the point of competing if the kid who was lucky enough to born into a rich family is ALWAYS going to be ahead of you, now matter how dumb/lazy he/she is or how smart/hardworking you are?
Believe me, the dumb people I knew at the private school did just as crap as the ones I knew at my comprehensive school. You're confusing the norm for private schools with Eton or something again. I personally did better than many people at private schools at a comprehensive without ever paying attention in class or doing any sort of work so you're clearly talking rubbish there. To be honest one of the biggest differences between private and comprehensive that I saw was that more people were hardworking.

As i've illustrated through facts private education is a cartel on knowledge and access to resources. An insidious monopoly that has no social conscience.
You're a nutcase. Private education doesn't prevent other people from learning. That's like saying that by eating a marks and spencers or tesco finest cookie you're ruining cookies for everyone who can't afford them. It's not a monopoly as grammar schools tend to be very good and since they offer scholarships and bursaries for the poor. PS you haven't illustrated anything through facts since I disputed them and you failed to respond and instead threw a tantrum.
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CERECEREREVOLUTION
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#456
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(Original post by graffic)
It's about in-equality
I've already contested this idea as being valid. One form of equality entails another form of inequality. Bismarck showed why it's inconsistent too earlier on. Inequality is just an excuse as you're nit picking which things you want people to be equal on. I don't see you complaining about the inequality in the quality of people's holidays.

So you've had a unique experience at a private school and that somehow means more than some statistics on private education which illustrate the point I've repeatedly made. I'm not making judgments or saying X is Y for "X or Y" reason, I have presented clear evidence
I refuted your use of statistics and you didn't reply, you threw a hissy fit. Instead of claiming you've made a point, go answer them otherwise don't bother.

Again, your use of statistics was pretty much wrong and makes little sense in the context of the real world.

PS I didn't have a unique experience at a private school as most private schools are similar to the one I went to.
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Psyche05
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#457
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It's true the state system is crap but the way to solve that is not to shut down the good schools.

And to anyone who says that bursaries are a joke, my best friend comes from a very poor family and is on a 90% bursary at one of the best schools in the country.
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Teaddict
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#458
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waaah sucks to be you, poor boy

But seriously are you mad?
If a rich family wants a better education how dare you deny them that right...
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DougieG
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#459
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#459
(Original post by Teaddict)
waaah sucks to be you, poor boy

But seriously are you mad?
If a rich family wants a better education how dare you deny them that right...
Waah sucks to be you rich boy.

how dare you deny poor clever children a good education?

Or are you scared that without mummy and daddy paying you aren't close to being clever enough to attend a good school?
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MindTheGaps
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#460
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(Original post by DougieG)
Waah sucks to be you rich boy.

how dare you deny poor clever children a good education?


Or are you scared that without mummy and daddy paying you aren't close to being clever enough to attend a good school?
Who's doing that?

Or are you claiming that getting rid of private schools is a panacea which will magically make all bad state schools good?
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