what would happen if people had a white or caucasian society at a university watch

(Original post by Laika)
Neither. The TERM black culture in this context, refers to a specific type of black culture.

It does not. Read my post above on MANGO the OU Soc.

(Original post by Laika)
The political and social identity of being black in the west and celebrating the cultural roots of that identity.

So answer this - DOES BLACK CULTURE INCLUDE THE CULTURE OF "unanglicised and disparate groups of Africans and other blacks" within the UK?

(Original post by Laika)
-That does not mean all black people are a part of that culture or want to celebrate it.

So certain black cultures in the UK are outide of the term black culture in the UK? I couldnt disagree more.

(Original post by Laika)
-It does not mean people outside the west are not a part of black culture.

So they ARE part of black culture then?

(Original post by Laika)
It simply means that the term here applies to an obvious sense of black identity.

Which excludes such Africans living in the UK because they do not share that identity?

(Original post by Laika)
This is not relevant in a 'white' context because 'white' is not used as a term to describe any equivalent culture or identity.

Yes it is by some. The fact that is not used as much in no way renders it meaningless.

(Original post by Laika)
Neither. The TERM black culture in this context, refers to a specific type of black culture. The political and social identity of being black in the west and celebrating the cultural roots of that identity.

So a much wider foundation?

Encompassing everything from southern Sfrica to northern most America?

This is not relevant in a 'white' context because 'white' is not used as a term to describe any equivalent culture or identity

Yes it is.

That would be British, which is a culture. 'White culture' as a term, does not have any specific cultural values attached to it like black does.

No, there is culture common to certain white people that is not British, so that statement is false.

(Original post by wacabac)
But are these terms really valuable for society titles?

In certain contexts yes.

As an exmaple:

http://www.koyaanisqatsi.org/communi...?2,1429,page=2

(Original post by Lawz-)
It does not. Read my post above on MANGO the OU Soc.

I did and have addressed it.

So certain black cultures in the UK are outide of the term black culture in the UK? I couldnt disagree more.

No, certain people. And other 'black' cultures may have their own identity, but the term black culture in this context might not necessarily refer to them.

Yes it is by some. The fact that is not used as much in no way renders it meaningless.

Well look at who it is used by. The BNP to give one example from yourself. Firstly I'd like to say that this seems like a misuse of the term 'white' culture and would more aptly be described as 'British' culture. And if 'Black' culture is a widely used term, but 'white' culture is confined to use by the BNP, is it surprising that it has connotations of white supremacy?

(Original post by Lawz-)
Since no "white societies" exist as I can find them, this has to be, in part, hypothetical.

OK so no "white societies" are in existence, so what is the point in this debate? I know the title is "what would happen if people had a white or caucasian society at a university" and your argument that no such society is in existence because of the controversy it would cause. We agree that if it was non-exclusive then there would be no real controversy, although some would disagree, but then we have evidence that some people object to a "black society" so there is no double standard.

As I see it, there are three arguments for a non-exclusive "white society" not existing:

1. Such a society would cause too much controversy, which would be unjustified when compared to how little disagreement there is about societies of ethnic minorities at universities in this country.

As we have discussed, this point is no longer valid since a) if it is not exclusive, there would be no real controversy about the group. b) There is no double standard since some do disagree with, our primary example, the idea of "black society".

So onwards! The second argument:

2. The term "white culture" is a useless term, too vague and hence there would no purpose in such a society.

This we are still in disagreement about.

3. A "White society" is pointless as we live in a country of white culture.

Are there any arguments I have missed? Would you like to address these arguments concisely?

(Original post by Laika)
No, certain people. And other 'black' cultures may have their own identity, but the term black culture in this context might not necessarily refer to them.

And there is the key.

If the whole world moves to Laika's defenition, which it does not, then the argument stands, but if it does the argument fails.

Well look at who it is used by. The BNP to give one example from yourself. Firstly I'd like to say that this seems like a misuse of the term 'white' culture and would more aptly be described as 'British' culture. And if 'Black' culture is a widely used term, but 'white' culture is confined to use by the BNP, is it surprising that it has connotations of white supremacy?

And by 301,000 other people, including universaties, and the media.

http://www.google.com/search?hs=clS&...22&btnG=Search

Black culture was also used by the "Death Angels.", so what connotations does that give it?

(Original post by Laika)
No, certain people. And other 'black' cultures may have their own identity, but the term black culture in this context might not necessarily refer to them.

EXACTLY! SO in certain contexts the term WOULD be used to include such groups.

If this is the case then it is just as vague if not more so that "white culture".

(Original post by Laika)
Well look at who it is used by. The BNP to give one example from yourself. Firstly I'd like to say that this seems like a misuse of the term 'white' culture and would more aptly be described as 'British' culture. And if 'Black' culture is a widely used term, but 'white' culture is confined to use by the BNP, is it surprising that it has connotations of white supremacy?

I'm not really bothered why it has the connotations...

it is used, and the BNP is just one example.

Forget about use for a second. You have contended, as has wacabac, that it is not use BECAUSE it is meaningless. Not th eother way around. So whether it is used or not, is firstly irrelevant to the point of whether it is a term with meaning.

http://uk.search.yahoo.com/search?ei...b-web-t-1&b=11

Here... have a look.. a lot of hits for a term that isnt used. Anyway, as said, that isnt really relevant to whether it has meaning.

(Original post by Paul Bedford)

And by 301,000 other people, including universaties, and the media.

http://www.google.com/search?hs=clS&...22&btnG=Search

Black culture was also used by the "Death Angels.", so what connotations does that give it?

A Google search is not evidence to how a term is used at all. And if you actually look at the links you'll see the confusions around the term and the context of it.

If, as Lawz suggests, that the term 'white culture' is used mostly by groups like the BNP, (which is the first use which comes to mind for me when I hear the term), it suggests that it is most often used in the supremist context. The same is not remotely true of 'black culture'.

(Original post by wacabac)
OK so no "white societies" are in existence, so what is the point in this debate?

The point of the debate is what would happen if such a society was formed.

We agree that if it was non-exclusive then there would be no real controversy

So why are you arguing?

although some would disagree, but then we have evidence that some people object to a "black society" so there is no double standard.

Except those that object to a black society also object to a white society, so it's not the same thing.

As I see it, there are three arguments for a non-exclusive "white society" not existing:

1. Such a society would cause too much controversy, which would be unjustified when compared to how little disagreement there is about societies of ethnic minorities at universities in this country.

As we have discussed, this point is no longer valid since a) if it is not exclusive, there would be no real controversy about the group. b) There is no double standard since some do disagree with, our primary example, the idea of "black society".

And as we see above that is invalid.

So onwards! The second argument:

2. The term "white culture" is a useless term, too vague and hence there would no purpose in such a society.

Invalid, and something that you have been unable to prove.

This we are still in disagreement about.

3. A "White society" is pointless as we live in a country of white culture.

Again an argument that no one has sufficently proven.

(Original post by wacabac)
OK so no "white societies" are in existence, so what is the point in this debate?

(Original post by wacabac)
I know the title is "what would happen if people had a white or caucasian society at a university" and your argument that no such society is in existence because of the controversy it would cause.

That is not my argument entirely. I am simply saying that there would be more criticism of such a society than a black one. I think this thread demonstrates that rather well actually.

(Original post by wacabac)
We agree that if it was non-exclusive then there would be no real controversy, although some would disagree, but then we have evidence that some people object to a "black society" so there is no double standard.

I am talking about the LEVEL of objection. Of course you can find a couple of loons who will object to anything.

(Original post by wacabac)
1. Such a society would cause too much controversy, which would be unjustified when compared to how little disagreement there is about societies of ethnic minorities at universities in this country.

Not really relevant to whether or not there WOULD BE such controversy.

(Original post by wacabac)
if it is not exclusive, there would be no real controversy about the group.

I disagree.

(Original post by wacabac)
There is no double standard since some do disagree with, our primary example, the idea of "black society".

Again, it is about the levels of disagreement.

(Original post by wacabac)
2. The term "white culture" is a useless term, too vague and hence there would no purpose in such a society.

This we are still in disagreement about.

But yet you consider that the term BLACK CULTURE, which IS sometimes used to include a very large array of groups, IS meaningful. It seems like that approach should work both ways.

(Original post by wacabac)
3. A "White society" is pointless as we live in a country of white culture.

But a Fench society in France would be pointless too?

(Original post by Paul Bedford)
http://www.google.com/search?hs=clS&...22&btnG=Search

I followed your link and look what I found at:

http://www.prisonactivist.org/cws/cws-culture.html

"C. A DEFINITION OF WHITE CULTURE

White culture is an artificial, historically constructed culture which expresses, justifies and binds
together the United States white supremacy system. It is the cultural matrix and glue which binds together
white—controlled institutions into systems; and white—controlled systems into the global white supremacy
system. Since World War II, the white culture of the United States has been the center of the global white
culture."

(Original post by Laika)
A Google search is not evidence to how a term is used at all.

Well it certainly gives 301,000 examples, a large number of which go against what you say.

And if you actually look at the links you'll see the confusions around the term and the context of it.

And there is not confusion ariound the term black culture?

You don't seem to have nailed it yet, despite a myriad of attempts.

If, as Lawz suggests, that the term 'white culture' is used mostly by groups like the BNP, (which is the first use which comes to mind for me when I hear the term), it suggests that it is most often used in the supremist context. The same is not remotely true of 'black culture'.

No, because the "Death Angels" were such lovely boys

(Original post by wacabac)
I followed your link and look what I found at:

http://www.prisonactivist.org/cws/cws-culture.html

"C. A DEFINITION OF WHITE CULTURE

White culture is an artificial, historically constructed culture which expresses, justifies and binds
together the United States white supremacy system. It is the cultural matrix and glue which binds together
white—controlled institutions into systems; and white—controlled systems into the global white supremacy
system. Since World War II, the white culture of the United States has been the center of the global white
culture."

And look what I found

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles...le.asp?ID=3693

Your point?

Now care to look at the other 300,999 links?



I do have to say that is an amussing link though, considering you and Laika and cottonmouth have been arguing we can't have "white culture" because it means British, and now you claim it's American white supremacy.

So what you mean is you don't know what white culture is, and you don't know what black culture is, but you think blacks can have a society, but whites can't?

Nice attitude.

http://www.pitt.edu/~hirtle/uujec/white.html

"Early on in the workshop there was an exercise which focused on "cultural racism and white cultural identity." Whites in the workshop were asked to talk about white culture. Most couldn't or wouldn't. The expression meant nothing to me. Nevertheless, we all struggled with it. As time went on we discovered that, in a sense, it was a trick question. The facilitators wanted the whites to struggle and to discover that the expression did have little or no content."

(Original post by wacabac)
I followed your link and look what I found at:

http://www.prisonactivist.org/cws/cws-culture.html

"C. A DEFINITION OF WHITE CULTURE

White culture is an artificial, historically constructed culture which expresses, justifies and binds
together the United States white supremacy system. It is the cultural matrix and glue which binds together
white—controlled institutions into systems; and white—controlled systems into the global white supremacy
system. Since World War II, the white culture of the United States has been the center of the global white
culture."

That actually proves the double standard quite well.

If someone talks of black culture thats fine

If soemone talks of white culture, suddenly they must be a racist.

(Original post by wacabac)
http://www.pitt.edu/~hirtle/uujec/white.html

"Early on in the workshop there was an exercise which focused on "cultural racism and white cultural identity." Whites in the workshop were asked to talk about white culture. Most couldn't or wouldn't. The expression meant nothing to me. Nevertheless, we all struggled with it. As time went on we discovered that, in a sense, it was a trick question. The facilitators wanted the whites to struggle and to discover that the expression did have little or no content."

Of course there are people that contend that. That's not news.

Heres a question - Can you have a "European and North American" culture? If so - what else do you need to add to that to end up, essentially, with "white culture"?

(Original post by Paul Bedford)
And look what I found

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles...le.asp?ID=3693

Your point?

Now care to look at the other 300,999 links?

Sorry, couldn't seem to find a single reference to "white culture" or "black culture", rendering your point entirely useless.

(Original post by Paul Bedford)
Well it certainly gives 301,000 examples, a large number of which go against what you say.

Take a look at those examples. Incidentally black culture gives 186,000,000 results. Over 600 times more.

No, because the "Death Angels" were such lovely boys

That is not the first connotation which springs to mind is it? Unlike the BNP or KKK with 'white culture'. Once again you're being overly pedantic rather than realistic.

(Original post by Laika)
Take a look at those examples. Incidentally black culture gives 186,000,000 results. Over 600 times more.

"belgian culture" gives 3880. Much less than white culture.

Is "Belgian culture" meaningless now?

(Original post by Laika)
That is not the first connotation which springs to mind is it? Unlike the BNP or KKK with 'white culture'. Once again you're being overly pedantic rather than realistic.

And once again you prove the point. The unjustified association of "white culture" automatically with racists, and supremacists.