Is Scottish independence a 'good or bad' thing? Watch

Poll: Should Scotland be an independent country?
YES (299)
32.12%
NO (632)
67.88%
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Kaiser MacCleg
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#441
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#441
(Original post by Slumpy)
It annoys me that the national anthem of Scotland is simply about beating England in one battle.
And what was that line in the last verse of God Save the Queen again?

Ignoring the second para; we are stronger together. Whether the current EU is perfect, or even particularly good, closer links across the world are the future (and a good thing). Opposing this (as independence basically is), seems rather regressive.
Is that a statement you are willing to qualify, or just the same inane soundbite that is employed so often without any sort of evidentiary support? "We're stronger together" only seems to apply in relatively few areas, to me - there's no arguing with the fact that the UK's spot on the security council would be threatened with a declaration of independence from Scotland, though I must say the benefits of membership for any single individual on either side of the Solway are rather hard to spot. The energy security of the rUK may suffer post-independence, but an argument could be made that that would help to focus minds in increasing energy generation capacity in England. In some other respects, it seems to me that Britain is stronger apart - representation in the European Parliament for the island as a whole would increase post independence, as would representation on the European council of ministers. Economic policy could be tailored to better suit the disparate parts of Britain, though it is likely whether or not Scots vote yes some policy levers will be retained in London. I've yet to be convinced that we really are stronger as one sovereign state.

Supporting independence categorically does not mean you can not be pro-European. In fact, both the SNP and Plaid Cymru are staunchly pro-Europe and have been for decades. Plaid has gone so far as to enshrine its commitment to seeing Wales as an independent member state of the EU in the first point of its constitution. The SNP has also made its ambition to see Scotland in the EU abundantly clear. I really don't see where the contradiction lies. There is a very definite tendency amongst unionists to see the nationalism of the constituent countries of the UK as introspective, parochial and backward, focused on grievances and supportive of some monocultural backwater closed off from the rest of reality. Nothing could be further from the truth. I am a (Welsh) nationalist. I'm also an internationalist, pro-europe and supportive of multiculturalism. British nationalism isn't the only form of inclusive nationalism out there, though it would dearly like to believe it is.
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Kaiser MacCleg
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#442
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#442
(Original post by Midlander)
Then why intentionally delay the referendum until the 600th anniversary of Bannockburn?
Personally, I think the date the Scottish Gov has set has a lot more to do with the 2015 election than it does the anniversary of some ancient battle. Salmond's banking on it looking likely that another Tory government is incoming, IMO.
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munn
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#443
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#443
(Original post by L i b)
I could quote you an official estimate of the cost, but we'll get to the substance first.



Payments toward tuition costs equally fall within the non-discrimination provisions in EU law. This was demonstrated previously in Brown v. Secretary of State for Scotland (1988) among others.

The Scottish Government is indeed obliged to cover the tuition costs of EU students - and do so.
Having read the judgement, I stand corrected, although I still can't quite see where your figure of a quarter billion comes from - the main cost would be suffered by the universities, who would have to lower fees to 1800pa (and then paid by the Scottish Government).
I guess the question of course comes from whether or not the Government feel forced to step in and subsidise the universities
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Fullofsurprises
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#444
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#444
(Original post by Kaiser MacCleg)
Personally, I think the date the Scottish Gov has set has a lot more to do with the 2015 election than it does the anniversary of some ancient battle. Salmond's banking on it looking likely that another Tory government is incoming, IMO.
It's not a coincidence that it's the Bannockburn anniversary though. Agree though that it is carefully timed.
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Fullofsurprises
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#445
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#445
(Original post by Scott006)
I'm not sure, I'm not an expert on the situation on Northern Ireland but if I was to have a stab at it, I'd say there wouldn't be much of an impact. The issue there is more about the union vs a united Ireland, there is no "independence" movement to speak of.
In contrast though, I think there may be a more noticeable impact on Wales, perhaps a growth in support for Plaid Cymru, or maybe even a drop in support. Either way I expect a knock on effect to be felt more greatly in Wales than anywhere else.
The SNP are, amongst other things, showing a striking lack of solidarity with their anti-English allies in Wales by stampeding through their own vote rather than trying to negotiate some kind of UK-wide vote on federalism. In effect, Wales will end up being the loser of this if "independence" goes ahead for Scotland. Although in the long run the Scots poor will also be big losers, as their government won't be able to maintain the high levels of public spending they are currently engaged in to win their votes.
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Good bloke
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#446
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#446
(Original post by Kaiser MacCleg)
Salmond's banking on it looking likely that another Tory government is incoming, IMO.
I suspect you are right but short-term politics is the worst of all reasons to make a big decision like independence, and this is demonstrated very clearly by the changing voting patterns in Scotland since 1980.
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Good bloke
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#447
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#447
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
I'm going to have to agree to disgaree.

Votes for the SNP have increased. I'll give you that. But support for seperation hasn't.
Fair enough; good point.

Next you'll be mentioning the myth that is 'Scottish Labour for Independance
No I won't.
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MatureStudent36
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#448
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(Original post by Scott006)
I've just spent the best part of a day answering questions.

Nobody's saying the English hate the Scottish, not that I've gotten any credit from displaying a bit of logic in that case, but I'm hearing people claim that the Scottish hate the English.
And I have already admitted that support for independence is below 50% in the polls, I don't claim to speak for all of Scotland and would never claim to do that.
There are narrow minded people everywhere. However as somebody born South of the Border, and therefore identifiably different in Edinburgh when I open my mouth. I had one vocal tube telling me to go home when I first lived in Edinburgh in the late 90's. I'm now back in Edinburgh, but instead of 1 person saying it there's now three. They all have one thing in common.

Nobody is saying that if you support seperation you're rascist or all Scots are Rascists. Just as nobody is saying all English are Roscists. That's a trick of the left, denounce what you don't agree with.

People are merely highlighting that Anglophobia is on the increase. Nationalism promotes differences between people, and as such when differences are promoted between people, tensions get raised.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/sc...-after-1485805
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MatureStudent36
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#449
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#449
(Original post by Kaiser MacCleg)
Personally, I think the date the Scottish Gov has set has a lot more to do with the 2015 election than it does the anniversary of some ancient battle. Salmond's banking on it looking likely that another Tory government is incoming, IMO.

I get the Tories aren't that Popular in Scotland, Just as they're not that popular in Wales and the North of England. But at what point will we realise that the Tories aren't exactly hell bent on making everybodys lives as miserable as they can.
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MatureStudent36
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#450
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#450
(Original post by Good bloke)
Fair enough; good point.



No I won't.
Good
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Kaiser MacCleg
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#451
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
The SNP are, amongst other things, showing a striking lack of solidarity with their anti-English allies in Wales by stampeding through their own vote rather than trying to negotiate some kind of UK-wide vote on federalism. In effect, Wales will end up being the loser of this if "independence" goes ahead for Scotland. Although in the long run the Scots poor will also be big losers, as their government won't be able to maintain the high levels of public spending they are currently engaged in to win their votes.
"Anti-English allies"? Please. Plaid is probably the fluffiest party in the UK, bar the Greens. There's not a whiff of anti-Englishness about it. Something tells me you are not overly acquainted with its politics.

As a Welsh nat, I wholly support the SNP in their "stampede". I agree that Scottish independence would have some negative consequences for Wales (though they would be nowhere near as profound as Scottish devo max), but I recognise that it is for the people of Scotland to decide their own future, not the people of Wales, as much as I'd like a vote in the referendum. Plaid are consummately aware that the SNP's raison d'être is to seek independence, and I doubt you'd find a single member who's against this referendum.

(Original post by Good bloke)
I suspect you are right but short-term politics is the worst of all reasons to make a big decision like independence, and this is demonstrated very clearly by the changing voting patterns in Scotland since 1980.
I agree entirely, but from the Scottish Gov's point of view, I think it's a strategy that makes sense. Polling suggests that an expectation of five more years of Tory government could have a huge effect on the result.
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scotland369
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#452
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(Original post by Midlander)
Of all the Scots I know the ones who don't hold archaic prejudices are in the minority. Interestingly all of these are from in or around Glasgow-a city that probably does more business with England than anywhere else in Scotland and has political values more in line with it.

As for the war comment-I'd be astonished if it was a part of the curriculum, but she'd have no reason to lie; she was definitely taught it. Maybe it depends on the teacher (an Englishman isn't going to defame his own countrymen after all), but I honestly couldn't believe such lies were taught at all. On a par with certain Irish believing that Britain deliberately introduced the potato famine.
Your girlfriend is talking ****e, I studied history until I was sixteen and I can tell you now there is no propaganda. I don't even remember being taught Scottish history, now that I think about it, just the foundations of the welfare state, the Irish famine/emigration and German unification.

Scots aren't anti-English, we're just sick of people with a persecution complex who can't take a joke. I've noticed that you live in Scotland. I'm at Edinburgh Uni, and I don't have a problem with the fact that that the majority of the population is English- some of my best friends here are.

What does piss me off are the countless yahs who also reside here with nothing but contempt for the city/country and treat it like daddy's estate. You also seem to have this colonial attitude towards Scotland which if you dropped might make people from here less "discriminatory" towards you.
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MatureStudent36
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#453
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#453
[QUOTE=scotland369;41438512]Your girlfriend is talking ****e, I studied history until I was sixteen and I can tell you now there is no propaganda. I don't even remember being taught Scottish history, now that I think about it, just the foundations of the welfare state, the Irish famine/emigration and German unification.

Scots aren't anti-English, we're just sick of people with a persecution complex who can't take a joke. I've noticed that you live in Scotland. I'm at Edinburgh Uni, and I don't have a problem with the fact that that the majority of the population is English- some of my best friends here are.

What does piss me off are the countless yahs who also reside here with nothing but contempt for the city/country and treat it like daddy's estate. You also seem to have this colonial attitude towards Scotland which if you dropped might make people from here less "discriminatory" towards you.[/QUOTE]

I keep on hearing this colonial argument. Can I have an example please as I've lived in Scotland for significant periods of time, and have always spent a lot of time up here as I've got family. I've never heard anything Colonial mentioned. (Big difficult as Scotlands history was very heavily intertwined with colonialism.) Is you're argument cut from the same cloth as the 'Westminster has penalised us?'

And when you're talking about yah's in Edinburgh. I couldn't agree with you more. But I was always under the impression that the Yahs in Edinburgh were rich Scottish kids. Or atleast the ones I've met/tried to avoid have been
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Tycho
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#454
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(Original post by Tom_Anderson)
The biggest question in my mind, is why are only the Scottish allowed a vote?

That's the way referenda always work, i.e. in the same way as other elections. It's absolutely the correct way for it to work. It would clearly be ridiculous if the Scottish wanted Independence but the English didn't want them to have it and on this basis alone they didn't get it (because there are more English than Scottish). In reality that's just one country dictating how another should exist.
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MatureStudent36
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#455
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(Original post by Tycho)
That's the way referenda always work, i.e. in the same way as other elections. It's absolutely the correct way for it to work. It would clearly be ridiculous if the Scottish wanted Independence but the English didn't want them to have it and on this basis alone they didn't get it (because there are more English than Scottish). In reality that's just one country dictating how another should exist.
This ones been banded around a lot. Scotland has an In/Out referendum, and as such only those people directly involved should have a vote as it affects them. True there's a lot of Scots who have moved around outside of Scotland........This isn't unique as people, not just Scots, move around for the UK/World for various reasons. I get to vote in it, born in the Midlands. My Dad who was born in Scotland doesn't.

Yes, it does impact everybody throughout the UK, but it's a Scottish Decision.

That's however why I find the concept of Devo Max abhorant. That does effect everybody in the UK, and should therefore be a UK wide referendum
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Good bloke
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(Original post by MatureStudent36)
That's why I find the concept of Devo Max abhorant. That does effect everybody in the UK, and should therefore be a UK wide referendum
I agree. If independence doesn't happen any devo max referendum should cover the whole country.
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HappyBappy
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#457
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(Original post by MatureStudent36)
That's however why I find the concept of Devo Max abhorant. That does effect everybody in the UK, and should therefore be a UK wide referendum
Scottish devo-max affects everybody in the UK? I don't understand.
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MatureStudent36
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#458
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(Original post by HappyBappy)
Scottish devo-max affects everybody in the UK? I don't understand.
I'll attempt to explain. The UK, as a whole spends more money than it earns. There's many reasons behind this. Some may argue it's the Trident replacement, some may argue illegal wars. These people are generally pushing that line for a political agenda,

The UK's biggest expenditure, something that Mr Swinney doesn't have to worry about is benefits and Pensions as its not devolved. The UK Government has a HUGE pensions liability due to an oversized public sector that is coming up on us all very fast.

Our Welfare state was originally set up in a different time. To make it simple when it was set up in a time when Mum and Dad got married. Would have 3 to 4 kids. Worked until they retired and generally died quite soon after retirment. and their kids would carry on.

Now, Mum and Dad, get Married (We'll ignore divorce and all of the problems associated with single parents.) and have one or two children. Mum and dad now retire at 65, but now live to on average 90 so they're claiming 25 years of pension plus the increased associated cost of growing old, suffering from dementia, increased social care etc. This has resulted in a growing elderly population and reducing birth rate. (See why we have immigration in this country now.)

We are now in a position where more people are taking out of the welfare and pensions pot than they're putting in. I don't have the numbers at hand, but I will post it when I find it, 70% of the UK's population take more money out of the system than they put in. The Shortfall needs to be made up through Taxs, of which Corporation tax is very important and Government borrowing.


Now Salmond has been pushing for Devo Max by using lines such as 'we want control over our own economic levers.' What this translates to is he saw that Ireland undercut everybody else to promote companies to invest in Ireland (But will ignore that Ireland has gone to the wall, and even now 50 % of the Republican vote in Northern Ireland is even now saying that they want nothing to do with this great Celtic Tiger anymore as it's a financial basket case.) and to hell with everybody else.

Should Slamond get control of Corporation Tax, his aim is to lower it significantly, to undercut the rest of the UK in order to gain investment. It's unsure whether or not this would create jobs as after all, the Caymen Islands aren't exactly what you'd describe as a financial or an industrial hub. This drop in Corporation tax, and lets remember the UKs corporation tax is one of the lowest in the world for a largish developed nation, results in the rUK having to lower its Corporation tax as well, so in effect we all end up loosing as the overall Tax recipts for corporation tax drop, and we end up having to borrow more money. Leaving Salmond and the SNP still able to Snipe at Westminster for having to borrow money to meet pension liabilities as they don't have responsibility for them. Looking after the good bits and ignoring the bad bits.


Salmond has been very clever to target Westminster, London and the South East of England in order to not be criticised for Anglophobic statements. What's probably not getting reported much is it's the North East and the North West of England, Wales and Northern Ireland area's that Salmond has tried to stir up discent against Westminster, that are the biggest loosers in this situation, and they have been very vocal about it as they know that Devo Max in Scotland will cripple their local economies. The North of England especially.


In affect Salmond is wanting to create a Tax Haven, with the rest of the UK having to pick up the pieces if it goes wrong like in Ireland. A hence the reason for Devo Max having to be a Uk wide decision as it impacts on everybody in the UK. Not just 5 Million people North of Carlisle.


It's not Anti Scottish Sentiment from Westminster. Brown blocked the same decision in the Northern Irelands assembly. It's UK wide as it impacts everybody

http://www.isitfair.co.uk/reports/pu...licfinance.pdf

This report is quite telling. Pro seperation supporters will be able to cherry pick statistics out of this. But try and read the report as a whole and absorb it as a whole. London and the South East aren't the bad guys in this. They subsidise everybody. So although Salmond will try and make them out as the bad guys, Salmonds policy will have a detrimental impact on the Welsh, the Northern Irish, The Midlands and any other region named on Page 14 of the economic outlook.

I know people love to critise the current government about unemployement, but this isn't the 1970's any more. Our Membership of the EU and the World Trade Organisation forbid us to create Nationalised Inustries that would create jobs, and as such governments can only set conditions for job creation. It's been set by lowering corporation Tax, tax breaks on investments in machine tools etc, and issues such as improved training for useful skills that employers want, and a recent report in the economist highlighting that with rising wages in China and India, companys are begining to instead of outsource, they're resourcing back to the UK.

So hopefully that will answer your question as to why Devo Max is a UK wide issue. But if I haven't answered it properly, please feel free to ask.
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MatureStudent36
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#459
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(Original post by Kaiser MacCleg)
"Anti-English allies"? Please. Plaid is probably the fluffiest party in the UK, bar the Greens. There's not a whiff of anti-Englishness about it. Something tells me you are not overly acquainted with its politics.

As a Welsh nat, I wholly support the SNP in their "stampede". I agree that Scottish independence would have some negative consequences for Wales (though they would be nowhere near as profound as Scottish devo max), but I recognise that it is for the people of Scotland to decide their own future, not the people of Wales, as much as I'd like a vote in the referendum. Plaid are consummately aware that the SNP's raison d'être is to seek independence, and I doubt you'd find a single member who's against this referendum.


I agree entirely, but from the Scottish Gov's point of view, I think it's a strategy that makes sense. Polling suggests that an expectation of five more years of Tory government could have a huge effect on the result.
But the economies coming back up. Labour had 13 years to promote sustainable job creation but didn't, it created unsustainable public sector growth, and yet the Tories are promoting. And Cameron is pushing to get back fishing rights from Europe, and reduce on a whole host of legislation that is holding Business's back in job creation. The only war they've started has been removing a dictator who was responsible for bringing down a fully laden 747 down over the Scottish Borders and financing and supporting and training PIRA.

It would be a sad day if such a monumental decision is based on who got elected next in Westminster when most of the issues people have with the Tories are devolved matters.

Maybe it's time that we forgot about Labour spin from 30 years ago and looked at the here and now.

Incidentally, try having a chat with a Plaid Hardcore supporter, not a voter, but the ardent supporter. If you can get to the five minute mark without Owain Glyndŵr being mentioned you've done well. But hey, that's why we have democracy. People can vote for and however they wish to.
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Tycho
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(Original post by MatureStudent36)
Yes, it does impact everybody throughout the UK, but it's a Scottish Decision.
This is correct. Take the US election as an example. Whether it's a Republican or Democrat President will have a massive impact on many other people around the world, yet it's obviously a decision for the American people alone.
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