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    (Original post by AJ KO)
    Hatred of Shias/Ahmadis etc is so widespread amongst Sunni schools of though (insofar as such individuals 'think' about anything in general). It's sad. Shias are clearly the more tolerant, reasonable and less extremist sect.
    I'm aware,although I don't really feel such hatred from the Sunnis I know. In Lebanon it's not like that,there may be political differences but Sunnis and Shias do not hate each other(generally),which is why I was especially upset/angry when I heard about the ISIS attack in Lebanon a few months ago. It's so annoying to see people spout sectarian bs on here and hate on Shias/other religious groups. That sort of thinking is toxic and does nothing but fuel intolerance and hatred.
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    (Original post by Oblivion99)
    Wait are you Muslim? SAUDI ARABIA is the second, most, cultic civilisation in the world after ISIS. Their school of Islam, and their ideologies and political advancements are all diabolic. But the whole world fails to see that, they're allies with them *free oil baby*
    No I am not. I completely agree with you on Saudi Arabia. They are the Islamic State that made it. To think they head a UN Human Rights Panel is disgusting. The richest country in the region (Saudi) killing thousands of civilians in the poorest country in the region (Yemen) using British weapons makes me sick. Their funding of madrassas across the Islamic world has fostered the extremism that gave birth to the IS.

    Not really. Its Hamas that's causing all the problems. However I don't believe in the slightest they were using children as shields. Loads of bs, to increase the death toll.
    Most British Muslims probably have some level of sympathy for Hamas, which was more my point. I don't have a source for that, though, so I could be proved wrong.
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    (Original post by AJ KO)
    ****ing hell. That is the most disgusting thing I have read in a long time.

    You think a genocide is good in the LR if it means more Syrians (those than survive, at least) become Muslims? Your parents failed you, and I don't say that lightly.
    PRSOM. How did I miss this? :facepalm:
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    People's brains are limited to God's. And there have been so many proofs.
    Holy Books and Miracles (That can't be explained by scientists).
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    (Original post by QE2)
    What is your position on pre-slaughter stunning?
    Is it halal if the animal is unconscious before it is killed?
    Where talking about nando's and your talking about slaughtering?! Can you stop bringing up religion. You commented on 2, 3 threads that I was on. I feel like i've known you for a year now.
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    (Original post by childofthesun)
    I'm aware,although I don't really feel such hatred from the Sunnis I know.
    Are you a Shia Muslim? :holmes:

    In Lebanon it's not like that,there may be political differences but Sunnis and Shias do not hate each other(generally),which is why I was especially upset/angry when I heard about the ISIS attack in Lebanon a few months ago.
    I do wonder why you don't have more sectarian problems, what with religious difference being enshrined in your constitution.
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    (Original post by Hydeman)
    Because some views are too revolting for reasonable people to get along with those that hold them. :console: I don't think there's anything necessarily wrong with hate in situations like that; would you want to get along with a fascist? :holmes:
    Hahaha Mister Hyde wants me to debate :3
    Of course not , but you get my point I'm sorry I have 12 notifications to deal with so I wont be long but I'll still give a little answer


    Firstly, are we really talking about fascism here ?


    Secondly, it looks like people are just trying to defend their opinion - which is great ! - but some of them just do not know anymore how to talk to each other , which is too bad because debates are here to help people share , and we can't get along without a debate

    But finally, at which point a debate becomes off-topic and non constructive ? I believe it happens when people just stop justify themselve and say something like "it is just the way it is" or "you can't understand"

    When someone say to me that I can't understand, I ask more and more questions because I do want to understand , a human being is curious by nature, he wants more and more. But are all people like me ? Yes of course. Some just can't express themselve the same way and start to argue. Here is the point when a debate becomes off-topic. When someone who wants to understand pretend not to want.

    That's why it's not about fascism, but about freedom of speech. When people ask for such a right and can't handle it.. Well, RIP.

    What do you think Homme Caché ?
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    (Original post by chillygirl)
    lool its like me saying ,god isn't merciful because he isn't stopping the genocide that's happening in Syria ,but really god is testing us ,sometimes things happen to us that we may think its bad, but really at the end we gain some benefit from .people of syria never use to be practising but now during the genocide many people have turned back to Allah
    Troll...? or that proves Islam isn't a religion of peace but a religion of submission (whatever makes people turn to Allah)...

    Allah is some Machiavellian douche I'll give you that. Indeed, he's the best of planners...
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    (Original post by QE2)

    LUL. That's not Ganesh. Ganesh has an elephant's head. That is a picture of what god actually looks like, from the telly.
    Dear oh dear. :rofl::laugh:

    Some actually thought that...
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    (Original post by Hydeman)
    Are you a Shia Muslim? :holmes:



    I do wonder why you don't have more sectarian problems, what with religious difference being enshrined in your constitution.
    Yes
    And sectarianism is a problem, but like I mentioned it's to do with political matters,not actual religious differences, and doesn't manifest as hatred amongst the religious groups. When I say sectarianism,I'm referring to the way in which the political seats/roles are all divided(e.g. President must be Maronite,prime minister a Sunni, speaker of parliament a Shia etc...), and people will support whichever political group best serves the interests of their sect rather than the country as a whole. This may cause some tension,e.g. Shias support Hezbollah while Sunnis tend to oppose them, Sunnis support the Syrian revolution while Shias back Assad etc...
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    (Original post by FrenchUnicorn)
    What do you think Homme Caché ?
    Reply in spoiler because it's long.

    Spoiler:
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    Firstly, are we really talking about fascism here ?
    Of course not. That was simply an example of an ideology that most people find morally repugnant. I used it because there exists what might be called 'religious privilege' in Western societies whereby people unconsciously make exceptions for religion and for the things done by religious people that they wouldn't make in other circumstances. Fascism is an example of 'other circumstances.'

    In the same way that I've no real wish to 'get along' with a fascist, who differs so fundamentally from my worldview, I've no real wish to get along with people who hold quasi-fascist beliefs, even if those beliefs are derived from religions. Examples of these would be calling for punishment for blasphemy (or, worse, actually administering it), for apostasy (in any circumstances), or for citizenship to be denominated by faith, gender, sexuality, and so on.

    Secondly, it looks like people are just trying to defend their opinion - which is great ! - but some of them just do not know anymore how to talk to each other , which is too bad because debates are here to help people share , and we can't get along without a debate
    I don't think the occasional sneer or humorous jibe is anything to be worried about. As for showing open contempt for the opposition, that is understandable where previous encounters have shown particular users to be obscurantists, lacking in argumentative skill, or unwilling to argue honestly.

    The faithful, especially, have a great dread of honest debate, because they usually only want to ask and be asked questions that they can be sure won't give an unwelcome result and, in so doing, make it pretty pointless to argue with them. It's worthless to be mostly open-minded if the belief that's under discussion is the one belief that you've decided is not up for negotiation.

    But finally, at which point a debate becomes off-topic and non constructive ?
    When the CT says it does. :lol:

    I believe it happens when people just stop justify themselve and say something like "it is just the way it is" or "you can't understand"
    You'll find that one side is guilty of that on a disproportionately large number of occasions.

    When someone say to me that I can't understand, I ask more and more questions because I do want to understand , a human being is curious by nature, he wants more and more.
    Some human beings, yes. A safe-space culture like the one that we have on TSR ensures that you can never quite be as bold as to say that all/most humans are curious by nature.

    But are all people like me ? Yes of course. Some just can't express themselve the same way and start to argue. Here is the point when a debate becomes off-topic. When someone who wants to understand pretend not to want.
    I disagree. Some people are just beyond help, as some of the replies on the last few pages of this thread highlight.

    That's why it's not about fascism, but about freedom of speech. When people ask for such a right and can't handle it.. Well, RIP.
    Well, fascism was only a comparison, but freedom of speech is quite relevant to any discussion of fascism, given that one of the core tenet of that ideology is the abrogation of freedom of speech in any society that it takes control of that previously guaranteed it.

    Interestingly, all the people on TSR whom I might say I hate oppose freedom of speech either explicitly or in effect ('I support free speech but I don't believe in the freedom to offend' -- yeah, then you don't really support free speech :rolleyes:), so it is about fascism in one way. :rofl:
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    (Original post by childofthesun)
    Yes
    Must be tough. :console:

    And sectarianism is a problem, but like I mentioned it's to do with political matters,not actual religious differences, and doesn't manifest as hatred amongst the religious groups. When I say sectarianism,I'm referring to the way in which the political seats/roles are all divided(e.g. President must be Maronite,prime minister a Sunni, speaker of parliament a Shia etc...), and people will support whichever political group best serves the interests of their sect rather than the country as a whole. This may cause some tension,e.g. Shias support Hezbollah while Sunnis tend to oppose them, Sunnis support the Syrian revolution while Shias back Assad etc...
    Yeah, that's what I meant about sectarianism being enshrined in your constitution. This essentially encourages people to self-segregate and have dual loyalties, which is hardly a recipe for long-term sectarian harmony. :holmes:
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    (Original post by Hydeman)
    Must be tough. :console:



    Yeah, that's what I meant about sectarianism being enshrined in your constitution. This essentially encourages people to self-segregate and have dual loyalties, which is hardly a recipe for long-term sectarian harmony. :holmes:
    Why'd it be tough haha?

    Yeah I agree. It's strange,lots of Lebanese people aren't even that religious but are still so tied to their particular sect. Having said that, I know many who'd identity as Lebanese first before 'Muslim'/'Christian'/'Druze' etc.. We still share that sense of nationalism despite the sectarianism. Lebanon is such a complex country :lol:
    The sectarian system needs to go, I just don't see it happening anytime soon.
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    (Original post by darkrep97)
    So are you saying that the best way God can test people is through a genocide.
    everyone gets tested differently ,some get tested with poverty ,some get tested with money to see if they are going to use it in a right or wrong way and etc
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    (Original post by childofthesun)
    Why'd it be tough haha?
    Oh, you know, a significant section of the Sunni world seeing you as heretics deserving of punishment, and stuff. :lol:

    Yeah I agree. It's strange,lots of Lebanese people aren't even that religious but are still so tied to their particular sect. Having said that, I know many who'd identity as Lebanese first before 'Muslim'/'Christian'/'Druze' etc.. We still share that sense of nationalism despite the sectarianism. Lebanon is such a complex country :lol:
    The sectarian system needs to go, I just don't see it happening anytime soon.
    I agree. Can't wait for you guys to become loyal to capitalist individualism and consumerism instead.
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    (Original post by Hydeman)
    Oh, you know, a significant section of the Sunni world seeing you as heretics deserving of punishment, and stuff. :lol:



    I agree. Can't wait for you guys to become loyal to capitalist individualism and consumerism instead.
    It's sad that some people hold those views, but no it's not 'tough' because in my everyday life I've never faced any sort of abuse because I'm Shia and rarely come across anyone like that. The Lebanese community around me are pretty laid back and everyone gets on well regardless of sect.

    #resistcapitalism
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    (Original post by Hydeman)
    Reply in spoiler because it's long.
    Spoiler:
    Show


    1-Of course not. That was simply an example of an ideology that most people find morally repugnant. I used it because there exists what might be called 'religious privilege' in Western societies whereby people unconsciously make exceptions for religion and for the things done by religious people that they wouldn't make in other circumstances. Fascism is an example of 'other circumstances.'

    2-In the same way that I've no real wish to 'get along' with a fascist, who differs so fundamentally from my worldview, I've no real wish to get along with people who hold quasi-fascist beliefs, even if those beliefs are derived from religions. Examples of these would be calling for punishment for blasphemy (or, worse, actually administering it), for apostasy (in any circumstances), or for citizenship to be denominated by faith, gender, sexuality, and so on.



    3-I don't think the occasional sneer or humorous jibe is anything to be worried about. As for showing open contempt for the opposition, that is understandable where previous encounters have shown particular users to be obscurantists, lacking in argumentative skill, or unwilling to argue honestly.

    4-The faithful, especially, have a great dread of honest debate, because they usually only want to ask and be asked questions that they can be sure won't give an unwelcome result and, in so doing, make it pretty pointless to argue with them. It's worthless to be mostly open-minded if the belief that's under discussion is the one belief that you've decided is not up for negotiation.



    5-When the CT says it does. :lol:



    6-You'll find that one side is guilty of that on a disproportionately large number of occasions.



    7-Some human beings, yes. A safe-space culture like the one that we have on TSR ensures that you can never quite be as bold as to say that all/most humans are curious by nature.



    8-I disagree. Some people are just beyond help, as some of the replies on the last few pages of this thread highlight.



    9-Well, fascism was only a comparison, but freedom of speech is quite relevant to any discussion of fascism, given that one of the core tenet of that ideology is the abrogation of freedom of speech in any society that it takes control of that previously guaranteed it.

    10-Interestingly, all the people on TSR whom I might say I hate oppose freedom of speech either explicitly or in effect ('I support free speech but I don't believe in the freedom to offend' -- yeah, then you don't really support free speech :rolleyes:), so it is about fascism in one way. :rofl:
    Too lazy to quote sorry so I put numbers !

    1- I know, I was just trying to say that I would give my opinion about a non-fascist thing :yep:

    2- mmmh fair enough. I'm the kind of person who do not mind to get along with a person -whatever their belief - as long as this person does not force me to be like them tho. But I catcha :yep:

    3- I'm not worrying about, I'm just surprised to see how much people are more likely to argue when it comes to defend opinion they can hardly defend, instead of looking for good arguments

    4- indeed , some people are not worth argue with. - you understand why I don't debate a lot now -

    5- I didn't expected this one :lol: I should become CT then :moon:

    6- Unfortunately.

    7- Actually I believe that human being are all curious by nature, but their curiosity shows up or not, and some people deny their curiosity, which make them not worth talking to when it comes to debate about serious stuffs, and it ends up like number 4 of our little conv Mister Hyde - we almost could call this a circle jerk :daydreaming:

    8- human being is curious. But when they are insecure and they feel they'll loose the battle, they don't take their time to be a part of a debate. What's the point if it's to loose , would they think. That kind of person is the kind of person of number 7 and number 4, the kind of person you would never convince, because they're too insecure to get rid of their own opinions, whatever they are

    9- awww a complicated one .. To illustrate this point I would say that freedom of speech still has its limits :3

    10- completely agree with this one !
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    (Original post by FrenchUnicorn)
    Too lazy to quote sorry so I put numbers !
    No worries. Numbers work too.

    Spoiler:
    Show
    2- mmmh fair enough. I'm the kind of person who do not mind to get along with a person -whatever their belief - as long as this person does not force me to be like them tho. But I catcha :yep:
    So, wait, there aren't any beliefs that would make it difficult for you to get along with a person, so long as they did not aggressively try to convince you to hold them, too? :holmes: Would you be okay with somebody who believed it was okay for husband's to beat their wives as long as they didn't flaunt this view, for instance?

    - I'm not worrying about, I'm just surprised to see how much people are more likely to argue when it comes to defend opinion they can hardly defend, instead of looking for good arguments
    That is true. :beard: Some people defend opinions just for the sake of defending, usually because of indoctrination (although there is increasingly a phenomenon of converts to Islam who, when shown that they understand very little of the religion they've joined, become very angry and defensive because they don't want to admit that they got a major life decision wrong).

    4 - indeed , some people are not worth argue with. - you understand why I don't debate a lot now -
    Yeah, I guess I do. :lol: Reason why I waste so much time banging on about the same things is that I've actually heard from religious zealots (and I don't use that word lightly -- one of these was a Wahabbi :eek:) who've seen the error of their ways after having lurked on TSR debate threads. I'm the sort of person who would do this so long as even one person out of hundreds is freed from the grip of inflexible dogma.

    5 - I didn't expected this one :lol: I should become CT then :moon:
    I was trying to be funny. Also, CT members are paid staff who work in the TSR office in Brighton, so unless you're willing to move here permanently, it can't happen. xD

    7- Actually I believe that human being are all curious by nature, but their curiosity shows up or not, and some people deny their curiosity, which make them not worth talking to when it comes to debate about serious stuffs, and it ends up like number 4 of our little conv Mister Hyde - we almost could call this a circle jerk :daydreaming:
    Be careful not to use 'circle jerk' in front of people whose opinions you care about -- it has a slightly more sexual meaning off-TSR.

    My point was more that some people who haven't had an environment that encourages curiosity can eventually become incapable of it. :3

    8- human being is curious. But when they are insecure and they feel they'll loose the battle, they don't take their time to be a part of a debate. What's the point if it's to loose , would they think. That kind of person is the kind of person of number 7 and number 4, the kind of person you would never convince, because they're too insecure to get rid of their own opinions, whatever they are
    Agreed. :yep:

    9- awww a complicated one .. To illustrate this point I would say that freedom of speech still has its limits :3
    In the form of libel laws, sure. Many religious people -- no prizes for guessing which ones predominantly -- want to criminalise offence. The trouble with that, of course, is that offence is determined by the person who takes it rather than the person to whom it is attributed. And of course, there's the usual anti-totalitarian arguments against limits on speech. :holmes:

    10- completely agree with this one !
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    (Original post by Hydeman)
    No worries. Numbers work too.
    Spoiler:
    Show


    1- So, wait, there aren't any beliefs that would make it difficult for you to get along with a person, so long as they did not aggressively try to convince you to hold them, too? :holmes: Would you be okay with somebody who believed it was okay for husband's to beat their wives as long as they didn't flaunt this view, for instance?



    2- That is true. :beard: Some people defend opinions just for the sake of defending, usually because of indoctrination (although there is increasingly a phenomenon of converts to Islam who, when shown that they understand very little of the religion they've joined, become very angry and defensive because they don't want to admit that they got a major life decision wrong).



    3- Yeah, I guess I do. :lol: Reason why I waste so much time banging on about the same things is that I've actually heard from religious zealots (and I don't use that word lightly -- one of these was a Wahabbi :eek:) who've seen the error of their ways after having lurked on TSR debate threads. I'm the sort of person who would do this so long as even one person out of hundreds is freed from the grip of inflexible dogma.



    4- I was trying to be funny. Also, CT members are paid staff who work in the TSR office in Brighton, so unless you're willing to move here permanently, it can't happen. xD



    5- Be careful not to use 'circle jerk' in front of people whose opinions you care about -- it has a slightly more sexual meaning off-TSR.

    6- My point was more that some people who haven't had an environment that encourages curiosity can eventually become incapable of it. :3



    6 - Agreed. :yep:



    7 - In the form of libel laws, sure. Many religious people -- no prizes for guessing which ones predominantly -- want to criminalise offence. The trouble with that, of course, is that offence is determined by the person who takes it rather than the person to whom it is attributed. And of course, there's the usual anti-totalitarian arguments against limits on speech. :holmes:



    1- of course not, I was talking about people who defend real opinions ! And by real opinions I mean defendable opinions ^.^

    2- I wouldn't go that far.. Because you are generalising, which you shouldn't

    3- Are you calling religion a dogma ? :holmes:

    4- I know and so was I xD

    5- godddd I didn't know .. I'm glad I hired you :mmm:

    6- :3

    7- not all religious people are the same, you are generalising again
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    (Original post by FrenchUnicorn)
    1- of course not, I was talking about people who defend real opinions ! And by real opinions I mean defendable opinions ^.^
    Aha, so we're good. :five:

    2- I wouldn't go that far.. Because you are generalising, which you shouldn't
    Not generalising, just describing a tendency. There's nothing wrong with saying that dogs tend to have four legs. That's no insult to those that don't, for whatever reason.

    3- Are you calling religion a dogma ? :holmes:
    Yes. :fyi: Google definition:

    dog·ma
    noun
    a principle or set of principles laid down by an authority as incontrovertibly true.

    I'd say that organised religion fits that. :yep: Wouldn't you?

    4- I know and so was I xD
    We can't keep doing this. :lol:

    5- godddd I didn't know .. I'm glad I hired you :mmm:
    I'll collect my paycheck at the end of the month.

    6- :3
    I love how you decided not to let this one reach its natural end. :toofunny:

    7 - not all religious people are the same, you are generalising again
    I said 'many' religious people, not 'all.'
 
 
 
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