The Commons Bar Mk XIII - MHoC Chat Thread

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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Shocking that a poor country like Ireland would turn down such a large amount of money which could be spent on all sorts for its people.

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    There are certainly a few reasons, primarily, the principle of accepting that Ireland has given state aid to Apple would make them look incredibly bad. You also have the message it sends to other multinationals in Ireland (Amazon, Google, Microsoft et al) and consequently the ramifications that this could have on investment and employment in the country if these cushy arrangements aren't as solid anymore. Not saying that it's right, just that it's not shocking.
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    (Original post by The Financier)
    There are certainly a few reasons, primarily, the principle of accepting that Ireland has given state aid to Apple would make them look incredibly bad. You also have the message it sends to other multinationals in Ireland (Amazon, Google, Microsoft et al) and consequently the ramifications that this could have on investment and employment in the country if these cushy arrangements aren't as solid anymore. Not saying that it's right, just that it's not shocking.
    I think it's awful thar countries like Ireland are able to try and lead a race to the bottom by offering such low tax rates to corporations which in turn means others have to lower theirs. The end result is less tax for the treasury and the corporations grow increasingly powerful over governments.

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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Shocking that a poor country like Ireland would turn down such a large amount of money which could be spent on all sorts for its people.

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    Ireland is poor?
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    It now turns out that the Irish government is going to appeal the ruling because it wants Apple to pay the low tax rate.

    So basically the EU is sticking its oar in for no reason.
    Not at all. We always knew the Irish govt wanted the lower tax rate to be upheld, but it's obviously illegal state aid.
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    Someone is less popular in the country than Jeremy Corbyn. It will be the man at the Football League who invented the Checkatrade Trophy, the football competition where a 43 year old part time rockstar played for one club, and average attendances tonight were under 1,000. At least if Jeremy Corbyn had chosen to watch a game he could have got a seat!
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    This profit that Apple makes doesn't just go into someone's bank account. There's an awful tendency to view corporate profits in this way - to personify corporate entities as if they are people, and evil ones at that.

    Any profit that is extracted from a company is already taxed, via income tax on dividends, salaries, etc. Corporation tax is just a tax to reduce the fruits of a corporation's efforts, before it is taxed again when profits are extracted.

    Apple's annual profits go into their reserves from which they can invest in new products, employ new creatives, invest in young people's skills, increase capital investment and enhance an economy. Their whole incentive structure is geared towards using resources efficiently to achieve these aims, whereas government employees have no such successful experience or genuine incentives to perform this societal function (i.e. investing in a young person's career, skills, etc). What is distributed as a dividend serves to increase Apple's share price, and increase the lot of institutional investors such as pension scheme trusts. Again, governments can't really help such pensions as they don't generate wealth (or produce anything) with which they could give to pension schemes - they only redistribute.

    Directors who serve to increase the resources that their company have at their disposal are not necessarily behaving irresponsibly.

    I can see why Ireland might protest the decision given that they receive far much more, in terms of economic and social long-term benefits, than what they would receive in tax.
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    Ireland is poor?
    Relatively. If it doesn't want the 13 billion then it should donate it to the third sector but to simply gift a corporation who made 53 billion on profit, a further 13 billion is ludicrous.

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    (Original post by TheDefiniteArticle)
    Not at all. We always knew the Irish govt wanted the lower tax rate to be upheld, but it's obviously illegal state aid.
    Low taxation are not subsidies and the EU has no power as yet to enforce a minimum tax rate at a pan-European schedule.
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    Low taxation are not subsidies and the EU has no power as yet to enforce a minimum tax rate at a pan-European schedule.
    It would be a great way of tackling tax avoidance.

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    Rumours that the EU is also going to bring cases against McDonald's and Amazon for their tax arrangements.

    Damn EU, taking on huge corporations and fighting tax avoidance.

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    Yougov poll of voters in Labour leadership election:

    Corbyn 62% Smith 38%

    We are now officially a one party state.

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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    It would be a great way of tackling tax avoidance.

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    Only in the EU (you still have places like the Caymans) and also you'd be crippling city states like Monaco.

    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Rumours that the EU is also going to bring cases against McDonald's and Amazon for their tax arrangements.

    Damn EU, taking on huge corporations and fighting tax avoidance.

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    If these firms are being given state aid (subsidies) then i fully support the legal action. If it's another matter of 'you should pay more tax' then they should be taking Ireland to court and not the firms.

    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Yougov poll of voters in Labour leadership election:

    Corbyn 62% Smith 38%

    We are now officially a one party state.

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    At the risk of terrifying you, Ipsos Mori about 10 days ago put the Tories on 45%!

    It's one thing for the Tories to be getting a large lead, it's quite another for voters to be so dismayed at Labour that the Tory vote share could be in the mid 40's.
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    Only in the EU (you still have places like the Caymans) and also you'd be crippling city states like Monaco.



    If these firms are being given state aid (subsidies) then i fully support the legal action. If it's another matter of 'you should pay more tax' then they should be taking Ireland to court and not the firms.



    At the risk of terrifying you, Ipsos Mori about 10 days ago put the Tories on 45%!

    It's one thing for the Tories to be getting a large lead, it's quite another for voters to be so dismayed at Labour that the Tory vote share could be in the mid 40's.
    Although it may be great as a tory voter, after a while you must surely be concerned by the lack of an effective opposition? When there's no credible opposition government's can get very complacent.

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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Yougov poll of voters in Labour leadership election:

    Corbyn 62% Smith 38%

    We are now officially a one party state.

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    The opposition that has any chance of being effective in questioning the Government is either Scottish or Caroline Lucas.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Although it may be great as a tory voter, after a while you must surely be concerned by the lack of an effective opposition? When there's no credible opposition government's can get very complacent.

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    Of course it is concerning, but it seems that Labour members themselves don't care. Not much anyone else can do at this stage......
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    (Original post by barnetlad)
    The opposition that has any chance of being effective in questioning the Government is either Scottish or Caroline Lucas.
    You seem to have a narrow view of effective opposition. Corbyn and his policies are featuring much more heavily in the media than May's at the moment. Austerity is now on the defensive.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    It would be a great way of tackling tax avoidance.

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    A better way of tackling global tax would be by apportioning profits by turnover. For example if Apple do 10% of its sales in the UK, they pay corporation tax here on 10% of their global profits, irrespective of where their head office is located. This would end the current nonsense.
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    (Original post by barnetlad)
    The opposition that has any chance of being effective in questioning the Government is either Scottish or Caroline Lucas.
    Have the Lib Dems stopped existing?


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    (Original post by PetrosAC)
    Have the Lib Dems stopped existing?


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    Basically
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    (Original post by Lime-man)
    Basically
    To say the Lib Dems are irrelevant but the Greens aren't would be ridiculous though.


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