Should women earn as much as men? Watch

Bornstubborn
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(Original post by Reblet)
LOL! Well if your faith in IQ still holds then I am officially far more intelligent than you... So which opinion of yours do you want to change?
So you think you are smarter than me? I guess thats why you're analyzing Sylvia Plath poems and i am working towards a very profitable future career.

Let me guess '' I enjoy my subject which give's me more heart and soul than you who is just studying for career prospects''.

Ok.
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Reblet
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(Original post by Bornstubborn)
So you think you are smarter than me? I guess thats why you're analyzing Sylvia Plath poems and i am working towards a very profitable future career.

Let me guess '' I enjoy my subject which give's me more heart and soul than you who is just studying for career prospects''.

Ok.
Well going by your faith in IQ as a measure I don't just think I'm smarter than you, I actually am... But don't worry I'm smarter than 99.5% of the population so you're in the majority. Subject choice has nothing to do with intelligence. I could have done sciences/maths but I found them dull and unchallenging. I prefer my humanities because you can't just learn the right answer, you have to think.

Good luck with your profitable future career, although you've basically admitted to going for the least competitive option you could find... I, on the other hand, went for one of the most competitive subject at the most competitive unis and am very happy. Competition is brilliant when you win! If I wanted to go into science/Engineering I'd have chosen your way... Although I'd have probably done maths and gone into Investment Banking. However, as I want to do a Law conversion after my English degree and focus on copyrighting and company law I'm quite happy the way I'm going. Amazingly enough I do have career prospects, they're just more open and fluid than yours.
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Bornstubborn
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(Original post by Reblet)
Well going by your faith in IQ as a measure I don't just think I'm smarter than you, I actually am... But don't worry I'm smarter than 99.5% of the population so you're in the majority. Subject choice has nothing to do with intelligence. I could have done sciences/maths but I found them dull and unchallenging. I prefer my humanities because you can't just learn the right answer, you have to think.

Good luck with your profitable future career, although you've basically admitted to going for the least competitive option you could find... I, on the other hand, went for one of the most competitive subject at the most competitive unis and am very happy. Competition is brilliant when you win! If I wanted to go into science/Engineering I'd have chosen your way... Although I'd have probably done maths and gone into Investment Banking. However, as I want to do a Law conversion after my English degree and focus on copyrighting and company law I'm quite happy the way I'm going. Amazingly enough I do have career prospects, they're just more open and fluid than yours.
Ok so you have done well in an IQ test? what score did you get?

IQ is one measure of intelligence, but i do find it very convenient that you have a higher IQ than me.

Yes you like a subject where 'every answer is right' as long as you present it in the correct way.

I went for the subject where i could earn good money. if you want to compete drop out and enter the job market with no qaulifications. If i want to compete i do sport.

Your career options are more open and fluid than mine....? haha does that even mean anything?
You can be just like Ally Mcbeal....haha

Investment banking is not looking that great right now. So that would have been a poor choice.

There is nothing like angry women.
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flump
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(Original post by Hopping Mad Kangaroo)
Most of the examples you cite are a day here or there, nowhere near as damaging as 6 months in one go (ok, some do go back after 6 weeks, but not that many). Now imagine you are the boss of a team higher up in the organisation. One of you key members goes off for 6 months. How much work and bother is the boss landed with by the loss of one key member of his team. Why should they have to deal with it? Its very unfair on them. Of course there is the possibility that more than one member of the team is going to do the same, which is going to make it a horrible few months for th guy in charge.

This is why women earn less, they are less likely to be promoted because of the above.
Where does the figure of six months come from? Women can take longer than that you know. Do you have any statistics on how long women take for maternity leave, the shortest maternity leave I remember was four weeks and she took her two week annual holiday in France during that four weeks.

Why do you assume a guy is in charge?

I have two members at management level on maternity leave at the moment. We planned for it and it is running well, we often find it is a great time to give people a temporary promotion and see how they do so we use it in a positive way. KIT days keep everyone in touch, no big deal for a well run business.

The guy who had a parachute accident was off for nearly a year, unfortunately we were unable to plan for the chaos that caused.

I don't need to imagine running a team higher up the organisation, the only person higher than me is the MD and we work closely together.

In the organisation I work for women are valued as highly as men and paid as highly. I don't know why its different elsewhere, I've never worked for an organisation that didn't operate this way. Obviously some women choose to opt out of the career race but so do some men.
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Hopping Mad Kangaroo
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(Original post by flump)
Where does the figure of six months come from? Women can take longer than that you know. Do you have any statistics on how long women take for maternity leave, the shortest maternity leave I remember was four weeks and she took her two week annual holiday in France during that four weeks.
A relative of mine who is a high level manager in a large company gave me the figure. Yes you do get the odd maverick however who enjoys their job more than their home life. But really you are being anecdotal here.
Why do you assume a guy is in charge?
The vast majority of cases they are. Though there is nothing to assume that women are not going to take the same line, especially those without children.
I have two members at management level on maternity leave at the moment. We planned for it and it is running well, we often find it is a great time to give people a temporary promotion and see how they do so we use it in a positive way. KIT days keep everyone in touch, no big deal for a well run business.
It depends on the nature of the role, some positions are less generic than others. Plus it still puts extra work on the bosses and other who deal with the temporary situation.

Also, you work in a large company in a field where staff seem easily replaceable. Lots of people either work in small businesses where maternity leave often causes mayhem, or in fields where staff may need either training or supply does not meet demand.

As an example of bedlam, in my old school a member of staff took maternity leave while another ended up in a coma critically ill. It caused mayhem for the poor guy running the dept, and some of the students had problems with the course too.
The guy who had a parachute accident was off for nearly a year, unfortunately we were unable to plan for the chaos that caused.
As someone who parachutes, just thought I would point out, that he is more likely to die/ get seriously injured in a car. Unless of course he is a moron, then the risks are increased. But then you shouldn't have hired him in the first place.
I don't need to imagine running a team higher up the organisation, the only person higher than me is the MD and we work closely together.
In which case, why are you on a student forum, if you don't mind me asking?
In the organisation I work for women are valued as highly as men and paid as highly. I don't know why its different elsewhere, I've never worked for an organisation that didn't operate this way. Obviously some women choose to opt out of the career race but so do some men.
Some companies cannot afford to be so generous to their employees. Especially those outside the public or voluntary sector.
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Reblet
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(Original post by Bornstubborn)
Ok so you have done well in an IQ test? what score did you get?

IQ is one measure of intelligence, but i do find it very convenient that you have a higher IQ than me.

Yes you like a subject where 'every answer is right' as long as you present it in the correct way.

I went for the subject where i could earn good money. if you want to compete drop out and enter the job market with no qaulifications. If i want to compete i do sport.

Your career options are more open and fluid than mine....? haha does that even mean anything?
You can be just like Ally Mcbeal....haha

Investment banking is not looking that great right now. So that would have been a poor choice.

There is nothing like angry women.
It's funny how earlier in this thread you were convinced of IQ's ability to test intelligence but now you're not so sure. Haha. You find it convenient I have a higher IQ than you? I find it difficult to believe you scored over 130 in an IQ test but there you go. If you have to know numbers I took one when I was quite young and got 148 and took one a few years ago and got 154 but they were different IQ tests so obviously the scores are subject to the scale. Which IQ test did you take out of interest? Or was it an internet one... Nobody seems to get less that 120 on those things. haha.

No answer is right actually in English. That's the fun of it! You have to convince someone of your theories. Why would dropping out to get a job be a competition? I want the best for me and so far I've got that, dropping out is possible as I was offered a decent job this year but you have to stick with one company really if you haven't got a degree and I don't like being tied down. But it's shooting yourself in the foot, especially as uni is all about the experience as well as the degree.

Yes my career options are more open than yours. I don't see how that's such a surprise. My degree, like most, qualifies me for nothing and everything. It doesn't lead me in a certain direction but it does meet the basic entry requirements for most graduate jobs so it's all about interview/experience from then on. Your reference to Ally McBeal might mean something to someone who watches chic TV... like yourself for example, but it means nothing to me. If you're mocking law then you really are more idiotic than I first thought.

And why would I be angry? You're expressing your opinion and I'm disagreeing. Out of interest what exact degree are you doing and where?
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Mata
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(Original post by Bornstubborn)
Ok so you have done well in an IQ test? what score did you get?

IQ is one measure of intelligence, but i do find it very convenient that you have a higher IQ than me.

Yes you like a subject where 'every answer is right' as long as you present it in the correct way.

I went for the subject where i could earn good money. if you want to compete drop out and enter the job market with no qaulifications. If i want to compete i do sport.

Your career options are more open and fluid than mine....? haha does that even mean anything?
You can be just like Ally Mcbeal....haha

Investment banking is not looking that great right now. So that would have been a poor choice.

There is nothing like angry women.
An answer is not 'right' or 'wrong' but will be respected if it is an intelligent theory, written well, with evidence taken from a close, perceptive reading of the text. Literary theory and practical criticism are more challenging than one would expect and you can't just get away with throwing random ideas around, attaching long words and pretending you know what's going on. Certainly not at a good university.

And there is a wide range of high-paying jobs one can enter into, from an English degree. From the more predictable teachers, arts administrators, journalists, publishers, editors, people working in any and every type of media etc to ... lawyers, bankers, marketing managers and accountants (a weirdly large amount of accountants work for accountancy firms these days - I know one person who literally breezed his way into Deloitte).

Not defending women there, merely English Literature as a degree. And maybe making the point that a woman who chooses English Literature as a degree isn't being 'soft' or going for the 'easy' option. Personally I saw it as an opportunity to go to the university I wanted to go to, do the degree that I would enjoy, and still be a viable candidate for high-paying city jobs. Sweet deal.

Edit: Reblet got there before me, so this basically echoes her sentiments.
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Reblet
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I take it you're an Englisher Mata? I don't understand why people undermine it as a degree. The only degrees that will qualify you for anything are Medicine, Vetinary Med and maybe Law... Everything else only prove aptitude and English is one of the better choices for that IMO.
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Hopping Mad Kangaroo
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(Original post by Reblet)
I take it you're an Englisher Mata? I don't understand why people undermine it as a degree. The only degrees that will qualify you for anything are Medicine, Vetinary Med and maybe Law... Everything else only prove aptitude and English is one of the better choices for that IMO.
Maths qualifies you for quite a bit, and there are quite a lot of vocational degrees that lead on places.
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Mata
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(Original post by Reblet)
I take it you're an Englisher Mata? I don't understand why people undermine it as a degree. The only degrees that will qualify you for anything are Medicine, Vetinary Med and maybe Law... Everything else only prove aptitude and English is one of the better choices for that IMO.
I am indeed an Englisher. Of all the academic (i.e. non-vocational) I think it really is the best choice job-wise. Perhaps history comes a close second.

IMHO a degree that takes you through the spectrum from creative writing to accountancy is very versatile indeed. You're right, it gets a bad rep. But it is extremely competitive, so at least it has the popularity it deserves! :p:
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Reblet
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(Original post by Mata)
I am indeed an Englisher. Of all the academic (i.e. non-vocational) I think it really is the best choice job-wise. Perhaps history comes a close second.

IMHO a degree that takes you through the spectrum from creative writing to accountancy is very versatile indeed. You're right, it gets a bad rep. But it is extremely competitive, so at least it has the popularity it deserves! :p:
Good choice. Where are you going off to do it? I was going to do English and History last year but after a gap year doing English now... Much more sensible I feel - not need to water a great subject down haha. I also feel very proud when I see application stats for English, so damned competitive - proves how brilliant it is

HMK I'm afraid I stand by my point that only 2/3 degrees will almost guarentee you a job. Maths won't, English won't, Engineering won't, Chemistry won't. It will allow to you to apply to a job but will not guarentee you one. But on the upside you have much more choice, which I personally value highly.
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Mata
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(Original post by Reblet)
Good choice. Where are you going off to do it? I was going to do English and History last year but after a gap year doing English now... Much more sensible I feel - not need to water a great subject down haha. I also feel very proud when I see application stats for English, so damned competitive - proves how brilliant it is

HMK I'm afraid I stand by my point that only 2/3 degrees will almost guarentee you a job. Maths won't, English won't, Engineering won't, Chemistry won't. It will allow to you to apply to a job but will not guarentee you one. But on the upside you have much more choice, which I personally value highly.
I'm actually 2/3 of my way through it - just going into 3rd year at Cambridge. It's very much a traditional English degree, with some interesting twists.

Where are you off to? A gap year sounds like a very good idea - there seems to be so much pressure to pick something - anything - so that you get straight into university, when it might be more beneficial to take a year out and find oneself. Good choice to drop the history - its like English, but with more numbers. She says, in a terribly dismissive and general way.
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Hopping Mad Kangaroo
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(Original post by Reblet)
Good choice. Where are you going off to do it? I was going to do English and History last year but after a gap year doing English now... Much more sensible I feel - not need to water a great subject down haha. I also feel very proud when I see application stats for English, so damned competitive - proves how brilliant it is

HMK I'm afraid I stand by my point that only 2/3 degrees will almost guarentee you a job. Maths won't, English won't, Engineering won't, Chemistry won't. It will allow to you to apply to a job but will not guarentee you one. But on the upside you have much more choice, which I personally value highly.
Maths nearly guarantees you a job, unless you are a total *******. Unfortunately quite a lot of people taking the subject are, hence why they don't always have jobs.
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Reblet
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I never really looked at the Cambridge course that much but my friend is off there next year and raves about it. haha. I'm off to durham in October. Really looking forward to it after a year in the big bad world...

I agree about History, it's too much with dates and facts. Not enough emotion and theories! Thank God I realised I should just go for straight English this time!
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Reblet
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(Original post by Hopping Mad Kangaroo)
Maths nearly guarantees you a job, unless you are a total *******. Unfortunately quite a lot of people taking the subject are, hence why they don't always have jobs.
Oy! Be nice, one of my friends is doing Maths and he's lovely!

Maths is a worthwhile degree if you can handle the boredom. Same goes for a few of the sciences actually. My friend doing Chembo at Ox is literally dying of boredom...
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flump
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(Original post by Hopping Mad Kangaroo)
A relative of mine who is a high level manager in a large company gave me the figure. Yes you do get the odd maverick however who enjoys their job more than their home life. But really you are being anecdotal here.
No more anecdotal than you, oh hang on I am talking about personal experience................

(Original post by Hopping Mad Kangaroo)
The vast majority of cases they are. Though there is nothing to assume that women are not going to take the same line, especially those without children.
Plenty of women reach higher management roles.

(Original post by Hopping Mad Kangaroo)
It depends on the nature of the role, some positions are less generic than others. Plus it still puts extra work on the bosses and other who deal with the temporary situation.
Opportunities to develop staff are very useful and this sort of planned leave is ideal. I find it actually creates very little work if you are creative in your thinking.

(Original post by Hopping Mad Kangaroo)
Also, you work in a large company in a field where staff seem easily replaceable. Lots of people either work in small businesses where maternity leave often causes mayhem, or in fields where staff may need either training or supply does not meet demand.
Medium sized but I have worked in small family businesses and large public sector organisations - I have found the same principles apply.

(Original post by Hopping Mad Kangaroo)
As an example of bedlam, in my old school a member of staff took maternity leave while another ended up in a coma critically ill. It caused mayhem for the poor guy running the dept, and some of the students had problems with the course too.
Maybe they shouldn't employ people who might end up critically ill? In the real world you can't legislate for these things, in an all male group of employees sods law says this sort of thing will happen two people off at the same time is something you have plans for.

(Original post by Hopping Mad Kangaroo)
As someone who parachutes, just thought I would point out, that he is more likely to die/ get seriously injured in a car. Unless of course he is a moron, then the risks are increased. But then you shouldn't have hired him in the first place.
He's not a moron.

(Original post by Hopping Mad Kangaroo)
In which case, why are you on a student forum, if you don't mind me asking?
Of course I don't mind. Well as I said before I got pregnant at 17 and so I continued my education on a day release basis, got my degree and post graduate qualifications with no debts I suppose I just got into the habit of studying so job, kids and permanently studying something.

(Original post by Hopping Mad Kangaroo)
Some companies cannot afford to be so generous to their employees. Especially those outside the public or voluntary sector.
My company is outside the public and voluntary sector. As I said before maternity pay costs little due to level of pay and public subsidy to employer. Some people calculate high costs of replacement but as I say above I (and my employer) view this as an opportunity to be used. When second manager told us she was pregnant it made us try some radical ideas, first one didn't work but second one did. It meant we applied for some funding for a training project which has worked out well. The point with maternity leave is you get months to plan for it if you are a good employer and member of staff tells you early and is open about their plans. If you don't have their confidence and they wait until it is obvious they are pregnant and are then less than frank about their plans it can be difficult. To be frank I found this situation when I joined my present company but I demonstrated my methods and the boss was hooked so I made sure all the staff team realised we weren't going to view the situation as a problem and I am frequently the first person they confide in. Because of my own work background I suppose I take a particular view on certain things, training is another one. Just the way I am.

My advice to anyone going into business/management is focus on solutions not problems.

Edit Just realised what is missing in my life - sleep. Good night.
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Hopping Mad Kangaroo
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(Original post by Reblet)
Oy! Be nice, one of my friends is doing Maths and he's lovely!

I practically do a maths degree, though the majority of people doing maths are great, 10-15% are *******s and are less employable. If you are not in that 10-15% you are pretty much guaranteed a job, even if its teaching.
Maths is a worthwhile degree if you can handle the boredom. Same goes for a few of the sciences actually. My friend doing Chembo at Ox is literally dying of boredom...
Maths doesn't have to be boring. In fact it requires surprisingly little work if you can grasp the concepts quick, then all you have to do is learn and apply a few formulae. Then you have lots of other time to do great things.
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Reblet
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Sounds boring to meeeee... But I always found maths unbelievably dull.
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Hopping Mad Kangaroo
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(Original post by flump)
No more anecdotal than you, oh hang on I am talking about personal experience................
So am I, without attempting to play the lame argument from authority lark. There is a difference.

Plenty of women reach higher management roles.
Far less than men.

Opportunities to develop staff are very useful and this sort of planned leave is ideal. I find it actually creates very little work if you are creative in your thinking.
The downside is by developing them you are giving them a better chance of leaving and continuing the role at another company. Also it depends on situation, most bosses I know regard having to deal with a key person out of a team as farcical at best.

Medium sized but I have worked in small family businesses and large public sector organisations - I have found the same principles apply.
From your biased perspective. Many would disagree with you.

Maybe they shouldn't employ people who might end up critically ill? In the real world you can't legislate for these things, in an all male group of employees sods law says this sort of thing will happen two people off at the same time is something you have plans for.
In practise many organisations do their best to avoid them. For similar reasons. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that its morally right, far from it. But the current system is very unfair on those who have to deal with the mess of an employee leaving for an extended period of time.
He's not a moron.
Unless he was very unlucky (as in the slider failing - in which case why did he not pack his chute properly!) it was his fault. Contrary to popular opinion, most skydiving accidents are caused my human error. No one has died in the UK from two parachutes failing to open. It is just nearly impossible.
Of course I don't mind. Well as I said before I got pregnant at 17 and so I continued my education on a day release basis, got my degree and post graduate qualifications with no debts I suppose I just got into the habit of studying so job, kids and permanently studying something.
Fairy nough. Its good you have managed to remain in education for so long

My company is outside the public and voluntary sector. As I said before maternity pay costs little due to level of pay and public subsidy to employer. Some people calculate high costs of replacement but as I say above I (and my employer) view this as an opportunity to be used. When second manager told us she was pregnant it made us try some radical ideas, first one didn't work but second one did. It meant we applied for some funding for a training project which has worked out well. The point with maternity leave is you get months to plan for it if you are a good employer and member of staff tells you early and is open about their plans. If you don't have their confidence and they wait until it is obvious they are pregnant and are then less than frank about their plans it can be difficult. To be frank I found this situation when I joined my present company but I demonstrated my methods and the boss was hooked so I made sure all the staff team realised we weren't going to view the situation as a problem and I am frequently the first person they confide in. Because of my own work background I suppose I take a particular view on certain things, training is another one. Just the way I am.
It's situational I guess, if there is a plan to be made you can of course make it. Unfortuantly in some cases its not as easy as that, if your in a struggling company/ have tight deadlines and so on its not as easy. You are fortunate enough to be in a company who can dedicate the resources, I know some people who would be at breaking point if they lost 2 key members of staff, their margins + time are too tight to have the manoeuvrability
.
My advice to anyone going into business/management is focus on solutions not problems.
Ha, but you do need to identify problems to solve...
Edit Just realised what is missing in my life - sleep. Good night.
Lol, nighty.
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Hopping Mad Kangaroo
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#460
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(Original post by Reblet)
Sounds boring to meeeee... But I always found maths unbelievably dull.
Some of the stuff that you can do with it is amazing. Its what motivates me, even when bits of the material can be dry.
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