Is Scottish independence a 'good or bad' thing? Watch

Poll: Should Scotland be an independent country?
YES (299)
32.12%
NO (632)
67.88%
This discussion is closed.
Libertatem
Badges: 2
Rep:
?
#4581
Report 5 years ago
#4581
(Original post by Good bloke)
Congratulations! You have actually used the no true Scotsman argument in a Scottish independence discussion.
Congratulations! No I haven't. I used a different argument and you attempted to make out as if I used a different one in order to seem either witty and/or intelligent.

It's all common sense to me really. If I was in an independent Scotland and I was asked if I'd want to give most of my countries powers to the UK government, would I vote yes to that? No. I just can't see why anyone across the globe would be happy with their country being ruled by another government.

It's also interesting to note that a vast majority of the naysayers here are English. It's also interesting to note that a vast majority of English people say that Scotland drags England down. So what is it, eh?
0
Midlander
Badges: 19
Rep:
?
#4582
Report 5 years ago
#4582
(Original post by RobertAnthonySmith)
I'm sorry but who do you think you're talking to? You must have a very small brain if you managed to materialise the opinion that I am voting yes because I dislike David Cameron.

It's very true that I don't like David Cameron, not solely because he has a **** personality (he does), and not solely because he caters for the middle and upper class (he does), but also because he is a poor politician who is afraid of debating with Alex Salmond.

To counter your point; people who vote no because they dislike Alex Salmond... they seem to have escaped your line of fire. Is this some bias?

I hope we get independence (with regards to your comment about blaming the English, which is ridiculous because there are a multitude of reasons that we CAN in fact blame the English... in fact last ****ing week the HOUSE OF LORDS stripped Holyrood of it's powers over renewable energies), not so we lose the ability to blame England, but so we lose the shackles and chains England has on the control of our country.
Your comments to me suggested that the present UK government's decision making was a reason to vote yes. Where was all the independence talk under the Labour boom years, when Scotland got the party it wanted 3 terms on the spin? Of course as soon as the Tories get in and the economy goes up the rudder then suddenly the union isn't good enough. It's pathetically fickle thinking that bigots in the SNP have fully utilised to gain support for this referendum.

The very reason David Cameron won't debate with Salmond is because the first thing Salmond would say is 'here is an Englishman trying to tell Scots what's best for them'. There are many things I dislike about Cameron however at least he hasn't resorted to cheap manoeuvres like awarding 16 and 17 year olds a one off vote to suit his agenda.

I don't know anybody voting no specifically because of Alex Salmond. Maybe it's because they actually think Scotland is better off in the UK? His determination to keep sterling would suggest that indeed there are some merits to it. I won't lie though, when the no vote comes in I will relish looking at his face on the TV cameras.

What can you blame us for then? It's very good of you to go off an Anglophobic rant as it acts as evidence of what we knew all along-that the Yes campaign and this whole independence garbage has arisen from Anglophobia. Conspiracy theories about England wanting to keep Scotland 'in shackles' when in actual fact there are 2 other countries in this union who you completely omit from criticism when they are as much a part of the UK as England and Scotland.

It isn't enough for you that Scotland receives generous top ups of its public funding courtesy of the Barnett formula, or that every newspaper and public organisation (even CRUK for Christ's sake) has to have 'Scottish' slapped on it. It isn't enough that England has no devolved powers of its own and MPs from Scotland, Wales and NI all helped to raise tuition fees for our students. No, you actually think we're out to get you.

The reality is that David Cameron isn't a long lost descendent of Eddie Longshanks. Honest.
0
Midlander
Badges: 19
Rep:
?
#4583
Report 5 years ago
#4583
(Original post by RobertAnthonySmith)
Congratulations! No I haven't. I used a different argument and you attempted to make out as if I used a different one in order to seem either witty and/or intelligent.

It's all common sense to me really. If I was in an independent Scotland and I was asked if I'd want to give most of my countries powers to the UK government, would I vote yes to that? No. I just can't see why anyone across the globe would be happy with their country being ruled by another government.

It's also interesting to note that a vast majority of the naysayers here are English. It's also interesting to note that a vast majority of English people say that Scotland drags England down. So what is it, eh?
Unsubstantiated garbage.
0
Midlander
Badges: 19
Rep:
?
#4584
Report 5 years ago
#4584
(Original post by RobertAnthonySmith)
Of course you get a say in it. It's our country as Scots and if you don't believe that Scots should have full control over Scotland then I'm not quite sure if you really deserve to be addressed under the umbrella term "our"...

You say that the SNP haven't guided us particularly well. As an SNP member, I'd like to ask for some evidence of Alistair Darling, Better Together or even the UK Government guiding us well.

Edit: going to bed as I have work tomorrow, but I shall reply tomorrow.
Ah, so everybody who votes No isn't a proper Scotsman. Lovely divisive words from you there.
0
Good bloke
Badges: 19
Rep:
?
#4585
Report 5 years ago
#4585
(Original post by RobertAnthonySmith)

It's also interesting to note that a vast majority of the naysayers here are English. It's also interesting to note that a vast majority of English people say that Scotland drags England down. So what is it, eh?
I have never heard anyone say that; it is rubbish.
0
Libertatem
Badges: 2
Rep:
?
#4586
Report 5 years ago
#4586
(Original post by Midlander)
Your comments to me suggested that the present UK government's decision making was a reason to vote yes. Where was all the independence talk under the Labour boom years, when Scotland got the party it wanted 3 terms on the spin? Of course as soon as the Tories get in and the economy goes up the rudder then suddenly the union isn't good enough. It's pathetically fickle thinking that bigots in the SNP have fully utilised to gain support for this referendum.

The very reason David Cameron won't debate with Salmond is because the first thing Salmond would say is 'here is an Englishman trying to tell Scots what's best for them'. There are many things I dislike about Cameron however at least he hasn't resorted to cheap manoeuvres like awarding 16 and 17 year olds a one off vote to suit his agenda.

I don't know anybody voting no specifically because of Alex Salmond. Maybe it's because they actually think Scotland is better off in the UK? His determination to keep sterling would suggest that indeed there are some merits to it. I won't lie though, when the no vote comes in I will relish looking at his face on the TV cameras.

What can you blame us for then? It's very good of you to go off an Anglophobic rant as it acts as evidence of what we knew all along-that the Yes campaign and this whole independence garbage has arisen from Anglophobia. Conspiracy theories about England wanting to keep Scotland 'in shackles' when in actual fact there are 2 other countries in this union who you completely omit from criticism when they are as much a part of the UK as England and Scotland.

It isn't enough for you that Scotland receives generous top ups of its public funding courtesy of the Barnett formula, or that every newspaper and public organisation (even CRUK for Christ's sake) has to have 'Scottish' slapped on it. It isn't enough that England has no devolved powers of its own and MPs from Scotland, Wales and NI all helped to raise tuition fees for our students. No, you actually think we're out to get you.

The reality is that David Cameron isn't a long lost descendent of Eddie Longshanks. Honest.
You seem to be talking to me as if I am a microcosm of Scotland as a whole. The reality is, independence was brought up solely because the SNP gained a majority government. No other party wants to push for independence except SSP and Greens and perhaps minorities from some other parties. The union isn't good enough to the SNP - they have pledged this to the people of Scotland, they have stated their reasons, BT and the opposition parties (to the Yes Campaign) have stated their defences, and it just so happens that I am siding with the yes campaign. Simple as that.

David Cameron is the leader of one side of the referendum debate (Scotland vs the Union). You don't know what Alex Salmond would say to him, the only person who does know what he would say is the man himself, so let's drop making silly predictions, eh? :-) And I would counter your comment about one off voting with the fact that 16 and 17 year olds are allowed to vote as they are deemed as of age to understand and come to terms with political manifesto and also to come to a decision on what to vote. The "one-off" comment will also be countered by the fact that in General Elections, the future 4-5 years will be voted on by the voters. With the referendum, the course of the nation will be changed. It seems only right that those who will be at the forefront of the development of the new country are involved in the voting process, no?

Believe it or not, I know around 8 people personally who are voting no because they dislike Alex Salmond. Most football "ultras" in Scotland will vote no solely because of Salmond's anti-sectarian legislation. I know plenty of these people too.

It was barely an Anglophobic rant, and to put this to bed, I'll simply ask this: does the UK government withhold powers from the Scottish government? I omit Wales and NI because they, like Scotland, are an extreme minority when it comes to MPs in Westminster. English MPs voting on Scottish, Welsh and NI matters. Ridiculous!

Ahhh, the Barnett Formula. That old formula which was supposed to be for temporary measure in the 1970s? Barnett himself has questioned the viability of it as an actual "spending dispenser" if you like.

If you are complaining that England has no devolved powers, then maybe you should think about how many English MPs are in westminster. Majority. Therefore English men and women vote on motions that THEY want and, as they are voted in by ENGLISH people, they are voting on those peoples behalves. Westminster is essentially the English Parliament.

N.B: I find it cute how you repeatedly attempt to make out as if I am simply an English hating baboon.
0
Libertatem
Badges: 2
Rep:
?
#4587
Report 5 years ago
#4587
(Original post by Midlander)
Ah, so everybody who votes No isn't a proper Scotsman. Lovely divisive words from you there.
Everyone who votes no is a stupid Scotsman.

edit: really need to go now. Shall reply tomorrow.
0
Midlander
Badges: 19
Rep:
?
#4588
Report 5 years ago
#4588
(Original post by RobertAnthonySmith)
N.B: I find it cute how you repeatedly attempt to make out as if I am simply an English hating baboon.
That is essentially how you come across.
0
L i b
Badges: 19
Rep:
?
#4589
Report 5 years ago
#4589
(Original post by RobertAnthonySmith)
also because he is a poor politician who is afraid of debating with Alex Salmond.
Do you really believe that nonsense, out of curiosity?

Firstly, it's an entirely obvious strategy decision that the referendum will be Scottish-based rather than becoming a decision on UK issues. As it should be. Secondly, I remind you that Alex Salmond told Cameron to 'butt out' of Scotland's decision on this, and now hypocritically seeks a debate.

Thirdly, politicians at different levels rarely have public debates with one-another. Can you imagine Alex Salmond agreeing to a debate with the leader of Glasgow City Council, for example? I sincerely doubt it.

because there are a multitude of reasons that we CAN in fact blame the English... in fact last ****ing week the HOUSE OF LORDS stripped Holyrood of it's powers over renewable energies), not so we lose the ability to blame England, but so we lose the shackles and chains England has on the control of our country.
That's an entirely made-up story which you've got off some ridiculous nationalist website. As you should well know, energy issues are reserved, the UK Parliament seeks legislative consent motions from the Scottish Parliament to make laws on legislatively devolved matters and the House of Lords does not have the ability to pass laws without the consent of the Commons.

Incidentally, and speaking as a Scottish person, I find your England rhetoric utterly terrifying.

(Original post by RobertAnthonySmith)
It's all common sense to me really. If I was in an independent Scotland and I was asked if I'd want to give most of my countries powers to the UK government, would I vote yes to that? No. I just can't see why anyone across the globe would be happy with their country being ruled by another government.
Another daft point. If you were in an independent Strathclyde - which had somehow survived as an independent kingdom - and took the same line, then Scotland should not exist.

As for the second point, Scotland is part of the United Kingdom. Pretending there is some sort of colonial relationship there is cheap and undignified.
0
Per
Badges: 12
Rep:
?
#4590
Report 5 years ago
#4590
Yes then they can start paying for their own education like the rest of us have to
0
edwinemanuelposse
Badges: 0
Rep:
?
#4591
Report 5 years ago
#4591
If the Scottish themselve want it then London should step aside,,,,
0
JackThommo
Badges: 0
Rep:
?
#4592
Report 5 years ago
#4592
Scottish people should be able to make decisions about their own country without being overruled and imposed on by West Minster, end of discussion.


Posted from TSR Mobile
2
MatureStudent36
Badges: 3
Rep:
?
#4593
Report 5 years ago
#4593
(Original post by RobertAnthonySmith)
Of course you get a say in it. It's our country as Scots and if you don't believe that Scots should have full control over Scotland then I'm not quite sure if you really deserve to be addressed under the umbrella term "our"...

You say that the SNP haven't guided us particularly well. As an SNP member, I'd like to ask for some evidence of Alistair Darling, Better Together or even the UK Government guiding us well.

Edit: going to bed as I have work tomorrow, but I shall reply tomorrow.
We didn't go bankrupt over the past few years. That'll do me for starters.
0
Midlander
Badges: 19
Rep:
?
#4594
Report 5 years ago
#4594
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
We didn't go bankrupt over the past few years. That'll do me for starters.
Got to go-buying some more shackles for the Scots like the filthy Englishman I am.


Posted from TSR Mobile
0
MatureStudent36
Badges: 3
Rep:
?
#4595
Report 5 years ago
#4595
(Original post by Midlander)
Got to go-buying some more shackles for the Scots like the filthy Englishman I am.


Posted from TSR Mobile
I understand that you're mocking our nationalist friends, but be careful how you word things because they'll take it the wrong way.
0
Midlander
Badges: 19
Rep:
?
#4596
Report 5 years ago
#4596
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
I understand that you're mocking our nationalist friends, but be careful how you word things because they'll take it the wrong way.
They don't care and nothing a conspiring Englishman says will change their minds.
0
Endless Blue
Badges: 19
Rep:
?
#4597
Report 5 years ago
#4597
I have never actually heard anyone say/claim/write anywhere that Scotland is a drag on England, most people in all honesty don't seem to fussed about the devolved regions. That is not to say they dislike them, but as my NI friend put it "you don't really care that much, let's be honest". I genuinely don't think a lot of people think Scottish, Welsh people are all that different, and hence support the union. (That is my experience, at least.)

Interestingly and rather more worrying is how the independence referendum is potentially and incrementally creating a rift between English and Scottish people. Because it is rather galling when lay Englishmen get accused of rabid xenophobia towards Scots and insinuations are made that we are somehow imperial overloads shackling them to us against their will. The SNP's rhetoric is understandingly beginning to grate on more English people, and as a result tensions may rise which would only support the YeSNP thesis that actually things are still as per the early 14th century and encourage Scots to vote Yes.

I am no fan of David Cameron. However, I don't think his devolution policy is in any way unfair or counter to the interests of the Scottish people. He has publicly stated that he is open to devolving further powers provided they are in the genuine interests of the Scottish people. But the SNP, as always, can't justify any further powers being devolved because they don't have any sensible reasons outside of nationalistic bigotry or cries about democracy.


Posted from TSR Mobile
0
L i b
Badges: 19
Rep:
?
#4598
Report 5 years ago
#4598
(Original post by JackThommo)
Scottish people should be able to make decisions about their own country without being overruled and imposed on by West Minster, end of discussion.
Our own country is Britain, but thanks for the contribution.
0
L i b
Badges: 19
Rep:
?
#4599
Report 5 years ago
#4599
(Original post by Endless Blue)
I have never actually heard anyone say/claim/write anywhere that Scotland is a drag on England, most people in all honesty don't seem to fussed about the devolved regions. That is not to say they dislike them, but as my NI friend put it "you don't really care that much, let's be honest". I genuinely don't think a lot of people think Scottish, Welsh people are all that different, and hence support the union. (That is my experience, at least.)
The Scottish nationalists thrive on the idea that English people look down on them. By far the worst insult you can give them is to say you, quite pointedly, don't really think about them.

This becomes, of course, another grievance to complain about. Yet oddly enough, ask them what they know of the affairs of the Orkney, Ross-shire or Selkirkshire and you'll get a blank look. It's perfectly normal not to be all that fussed about parts of your country - whether Britain or Scotland - that you don't live in an rarely visit.

There's an element of national integrity, with GB being an island and all that, but aside from that if - say - Liverpool or the Shetland Isles wanted to secede, I can't say I'd be overly bothered either.

Interestingly and rather more worrying is how the independence referendum is potentially and incrementally creating a rift between English and Scottish people. Because it is rather galling when lay Englishmen get accused of rabid xenophobia towards Scots and insinuations are made that we are somehow imperial overloads shackling them to us against their will. The SNP's rhetoric is understandingly beginning to grate on more English people, and as a result tensions may rise which would only support the YeSNP thesis that actually things are still as per the early 14th century and encourage Scots to vote Yes.
I wouldn't worry about it. If anything, young Scottish people today seem to have a stronger cultural affinity and attachment to the rest of the UK than, say, people born in the 1950s. They've also got to grips more with the idea of the UK as an ordinary nation-state, rather than just a post-imperial understanding of Britishness.
0
Midlander
Badges: 19
Rep:
?
#4600
Report 5 years ago
#4600
(Original post by L i b)
The Scottish nationalists thrive on the idea that English people look down on them. By far the worst insult you can give them is to say you, quite pointedly, don't really think about them.

This becomes, of course, another grievance to complain about. Yet oddly enough, ask them what they know of the affairs of the Orkney, Ross-shire or Selkirkshire and you'll get a blank look. It's perfectly normal not to be all that fussed about parts of your country - whether Britain or Scotland - that you don't live in an rarely visit.

There's an element of national integrity, with GB being an island and all that, but aside from that if - say - Liverpool or the Shetland Isles wanted to secede, I can't say I'd be overly bothered either.



I wouldn't worry about it. If anything, young Scottish people today seem to have a stronger cultural affinity and attachment to the rest of the UK than, say, people born in the 1950s. They've also got to grips more with the idea of the UK as an ordinary nation-state, rather than just a post-imperial understanding of Britishness.
I don't know. For me attitudes towards Anglophobia are very casual across the board and it is seen as OK to make digs at English people because it's 'banter'. It makes me feel distinctly unwelcome in Scotland and the referendum has intensified it no doubt.

The funniest thing I see travelling between England and Scotland is that going north the road signs say 'Scotland'-going the other way they say 'The South'. Can't even have England on road signs!


Posted from TSR Mobile
0
X
new posts
Back
to top
Latest
My Feed

See more of what you like on
The Student Room

You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

Personalise

Have you made up your mind on your five uni choices?

Yes I know where I'm applying (74)
66.67%
No I haven't decided yet (21)
18.92%
Yes but I might change my mind (16)
14.41%

Watched Threads

View All