Is Scottish independence a 'good or bad' thing? Watch

Poll: Should Scotland be an independent country?
YES (299)
32.12%
NO (632)
67.88%
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Psyk
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#4601
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#4601
(Original post by TheLoveDoctor)
what do you think is the advantage of keeping the traditional model of parliament being supreme? to me it means that countries like scotland and wales can determine the social policies of england, but welsh and scottish people don't live in england so what point is there of them imposing their policies on us and what's the point of us imposing our own policies on them (although it doesn't really happen anymore)?
Not sure what you mean. The point is it would be easier to transition to rather than throw out one of the key constitutional principles of the UK. The rest of the UK wouldn't be able to determine England's social policies any more than England can determine their social policies now. The point is that England would have devolved governments similar to the existing ones in the rest of the UK (probably modelled on the Welsh one rather than the Scottish) which determine that stuff. The UK Parliament would remain sovereign, but day to day would only deal with UK wide matters.

(Original post by TheLoveDoctor)
and the idea of parts of england getting assemblies is an all right idea, I don't know if I'd go that far with the idea - at least the countries within the union should be entitled to assemblies, because in the case of federalism, you'd be giving england much more of a say over federal policies e.g. war and international relations etc if there was to be the conventional state-laying of representation within parliament like the senates of india, switzerland, australia and america
If you had each "state" represented in some house of the the government (a senate or whatever), and England as a whole was one state, it would be quite unfair if each state had an equal number of representatives. Then the vote of a person in England would be worth about 1/30th of a vote from Northern Ireland (to take the most extreme case).

If you have it proportional to the population, you end up with something that's essentially the same as the Commons now. Which is why I think we should keep the Commons more or less as it is (although maybe about half the members), and have regional assemblies of some form.

(Original post by JackThommo)
Scottish people should be able to make decisions about their own country without being overruled and imposed on by West Minster, end of discussion.
It's a bit difficult using the word "country" in this discussion. The word itself is sort of biased. Within the UK it means something different to what it means when applied to the rest of the world.

Imagine a country somewhere else in the world had an autonomous region with similar powers that Scotland has. It also has a somewhat distinct culture from the rest of the country, and a separate legal system, it used to be independent, etc. Would you call that region a country? No, you probably wouldn't. Even though the entity in question is in reality more or less the same thing Scotland is, you wouldn't call it a country, and you probably wouldn't apply the same concept of a country's "rights" to it.
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MatureStudent36
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(Original post by Midlander)
I don't know. For me attitudes towards Anglophobia are very casual across the board and it is seen as OK to make digs at English people because it's 'banter'. It makes me feel distinctly unwelcome in Scotland and the referendum has intensified it no doubt.

The funniest thing I see travelling between England and Scotland is that going north the road signs say 'Scotland'-going the other way they say 'The South'. Can't even have England on road signs!


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They are there, but they're not endemic. I was in Worcestershire a few months ago and they were looking down on Herefordshire. Quite a bit of it is banter, but I've met quite a few SNP supporters with bile running through their veins. But lib is right. They feed in this kind if stuff. I'd be happier if you took the moral high ground.

On a different note we can see education minister mike Russel being grilled on news night.

He published a report saying one thing and then denies it and claims the opposite. True car crash tv. It makes Paxmans interview with Michael Howard seem normal.

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-25347062
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Midlander
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(Original post by MatureStudent36)
They are there, but they're not endemic. I was in Worcestershire a few months ago and they were looking down on Herefordshire. Quite a bit of it is banter, but I've met quite a few SNP supporters with bile running through their veins. But lib is right. They feed in this kind if stuff. I'd be happier if you took the moral high ground.

On a different note we can see education minister mike Russel being grilled on news night.

He published a report saying one thing and then denies it and claims the opposite. True car crash tv. It makes Paxmans interview with Michael Howard seem normal.

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-25347062
Sorry, it's just too difficult to let bigots go unchallenged.


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MatureStudent36
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(Original post by Midlander)
Sorry, it's just too difficult to let bigots go unchallenged.


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When those bigots feed off your defence? Stocks and stones may break my bones etc.

the best way to deal with them is to sit back and watch them destroyed next September.
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Midlander
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#4605
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
When those bigots feed off your defence? Stocks and stones may break my bones etc.

the best way to deal with them is to sit back and watch them destroyed next September.
I couldn't care less if they feed off it-they have to be called out for what they are.


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Choo.choo
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#4606
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#4606
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
Our country? Do I get a say in this?

I don't particularly feel that the SNP have guided us particularly well. They've told more lies than Blair. That's some track record.
The SNP have lied. I guide you to the following video, my dear sir: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veuWO-jwpnQ
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Choo.choo
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#4607
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#4607
(Original post by JackThommo)
Scottish people should be able to make decisions about their own country without being overruled and imposed on by West Minster, end of discussion.


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Here here.
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Choo.choo
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(Original post by Good bloke)
You think she is lying when she says the IFS has said that Scotland would find it considerably more difficult to fulfil its state pensions requirements than it would if it was to remain part of the UK, then?
She is a Tory. That says it all. She is biased towards the union. What about the debt payments and interest on top of that, included in the fiscal calculations that Scotland has to pay thanks to Westminster running up so much debt? What about if Scotland did not have any debt to pay? Would Scotland still not be able to afford to go it alone? What about the other similar sized countries (in population) to Scotland which have become successful independent countries?
And don't say Ireland and Iceland are bankrupt - it is actually very much easier to sort problems they have had when you are a nation of 5 million people than a nation of 50million people. Iceland have sorted their financial problems much quicker than the UK, and do not intend to impose an austerity package on the people of their society who are least able to afford it. You are also forgetting that the power of independence enables Scotland to grow its economy - something that will never happen as part of the "union".
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Choo.choo
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(Original post by Good bloke)
This article says much about some businesses' thoughts on independence and the bullying attitude of the nationalists towards those who are off-message:

It also confirms that food prices in Scotland are effectively subsidised by the supermarkets' policy of having the same prices throughout the UK, even though costs are higher north of the border - another of the hidden subsidies that I've mentioned before and which people don't believe exist.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-25300398
Another scary story. No surprises there. What about the fact that food prices have been increasing year on year in the union, but wages have stagnated? What about the 11% pay rise that Westminster MP's were going to get, and yet there are ordinary citizens who have been fighting their employers for several years to even get a 1% rise in pay?
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Quady
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(Original post by Choo.choo)
Another scary story. No surprises there. What about the fact that food prices have been increasing year on year in the union, but wages have stagnated? What about the 11% pay rise that Westminster MP's were going to get, and yet there are ordinary citizens who have been fighting their employers for several years to even get a 1% rise in pay?
What about the wages in Independent Ireland over the same period? :P
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cuckoo99
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(Original post by Aj12)
I think if it got independence it would be one of those middling struggling countries. It would't collapse but I really doubt it would do well at all and would need to either raise taxes or gut services since its public spending is so high. The entire Independence project is based on oil and gas and some noises towards renewable energy, would't surprise me if an independent Scotland ended up suffering from Dutch disease. Although I suppose they do have the whisky industry going for them
Sounds a lot like Ireland oi oi :rolleyes:






But ye Salmond is racist bigot who is using Scotland's working class's hate for English people for his campaign...No good can come of this for both sides... Also the UK would have to change its flag "_"
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Quady
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(Original post by Choo.choo)
She is a Tory. That says it all. She is biased towards the union. What about the debt payments and interest on top of that, included in the fiscal calculations that Scotland has to pay thanks to Westminster running up so much debt? What about if Scotland did not have any debt to pay? Would Scotland still not be able to afford to go it alone? What about the other similar sized countries (in population) to Scotland which have become successful independent countries?
And don't say Ireland and Iceland are bankrupt - it is actually very much easier to sort problems they have had when you are a nation of 5 million people than a nation of 50million people. Iceland have sorted their financial problems much quicker than the UK, and do not intend to impose an austerity package on the people of their society who are least able to afford it. You are also forgetting that the power of independence enables Scotland to grow its economy - something that will never happen as part of the "union".
It all comes back to currency again doesn't it?
Iceland were able to default as they weren't in a currency union.
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Choo.choo
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(Original post by Quady)
It all comes back to currency again doesn't it?
Iceland were able to default as they weren't in a currency union.
The arguments for a currency union have been put forward several times, which we are probably now tired of hearing.
I think that, eventually, Scotland will adopt its own currency, when it is in the interests of Scotland to do so. We will get to a point where a currency union is no longer sustainable.
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Quady
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(Original post by Choo.choo)
The arguments for a currency union have been put forward several times, which we are probably now tired of hearing.
I think that, eventually, Scotland will adopt its own currency, when it is in the interests of Scotland to do so. We will get to a point where a currency union is no longer sustainable.
I wasn't suggesting discussing the merits or otherwise of currency unions (be it Sterling or Euro).

Just that using Iceland as an example is incompatable with one as their strategy of defaulting wouldn't be possible. Admittedly that would probably be the point the currency union breaks, a new independent currency is taken up and then default occurs.
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FinalMH
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(Original post by Choo.choo)
. You are also forgetting that the power of independence enables Scotland to grow its economy - something that will never happen as part of the "union".
At the expensive of the rUK? Seems more like a race to the bottom. I do hope border controls enable Scotland to grow its economy
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cowsforsale
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(Original post by cuckoo99)
But ye Salmond is racist bigot who is using Scotland's working class's hate for English people for his campaign..
Proof? It's insulting and arrogant to suggest that the Scottish can't think for themselves.

Also the UK would have to change its flag
That's all arguments supporting independence thrown out the window then.
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cowsforsale
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#4617
Well well...trust finds BBC Scotland guilty of breaking guidelines over EU indy story

I wonder if any of the msm outlets will cover this story. Why am I paying for misrepresented news?
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MatureStudent36
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(Original post by cowsforsale)
Well well...trust finds BBC Scotland guilty of breaking guidelines over EU indy story

I wonder if any of the msm outlets will cover this story. Why am I paying for misrepresented news?
You've quoted Newsnet Scotland as a source. It's the same as somebody quoting the BNP website as a reliable independant source when they're involved in a debate about Judaism/Immigration/Islam.


Why am I sensing that this will never be verified elsewhere? Why am I sensing that it's made up stuff again?
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MatureStudent36
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(Original post by Choo.choo)
The arguments for a currency union have been put forward several times, which we are probably now tired of hearing.
I think that, eventually, Scotland will adopt its own currency, when it is in the interests of Scotland to do so. We will get to a point where a currency union is no longer sustainable.
Well seeing as the SNP want to drive us into Europe (wityhout any form of referendum) I think it's fair to say that that currency will be called the Euro.
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MatureStudent36
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(Original post by Choo.choo)
Another scary story. No surprises there. What about the fact that food prices have been increasing year on year in the union




, but wages have stagnated? What about the 11% pay rise that Westminster MP's were going to get, and yet there are ordinary citizens who have been fighting their employers for several years to even get a 1% rise in pay?
Food Prices

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Source: https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...rt-19sep13.pdf

Food prices have recently seen a slight increase over the past few years. But to say that they have continually been driven up over the last 300 years is mere scaremongering. As you can see, food prices are 20% lower than what they were in the 1980s.

I'm unsure what point you're trying to make here. Are you trying to imply that Scotland is somehow being penalised and it's only our food prices that have gone up?

Food prices have continually lowered, except for a recent up turn in the past few years. Partially down to the finacial crash of 2008 and partially down to increased energy prices being driven by Countrys like China and India expanding.

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To imjply that somewhow this trend would be different if Scotland were to break away from teh UK is laughable at best, and a down right lie at worst.

MSPs wages are inextricablly linked with MPs wages. If you're that bothered about the 11% 'proposed' payrise, then you need to make sure that you keep an eye on what you're local MSP will be doing.

Just a bit of background for you though. An independant body was set up to look at MPs salaries. They have proposed an 11% increase in salary with a reduction in pensions. So actually there's very little increase or decrease.

Yes, 'Some'peoples salaries have stagnated. And they are mainly within the public sector. Currently, there's we're in a situation where by more money is spent than is drawn in through tax receipts. The gap is made up by something called borrowing. This is where you borrow money that you don't have and you have to pay it back with interest. Now if we're in a position called a recession by many. That means tax receipts go down and more money has to be borrowed. Therefore the only way to continually give the public sector more money isto borrow more money.

The situation I have explained has been going on for some time and is getting pretty much unsustainable. As one day, you have to pay the money back. It's a shocking fact that a lot of politicians and members of the public don't actually look out too far. *

*Incidentally, I don't actually know anybody who hasn't received at least 2% a year pay rise over the last 5 years.
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