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    (Original post by milkytea)
    The article makes a fair point but it is inherently one-sided. We may boo when Delap does a long throw but at the Britannia when one of our players goes down after a tackle they usually get booed as well if there's any suspicion of diving. I think fans always do stupid things in the heat of a match, including booing refs when you don't usually have the right position in the crowd to judge a decision anyway, but we all shout anyway because we want to get behind our team. It's simply very easy for (usually tabloid) journalists to give us stick for things like this, whilst defending lower table teams with 95% English players, there's no objectivity.
    This.

    All sets of fans do this.

    In fact, I think it's our job to make things as uncomfortable for the opposition as possible. Shawcross seemed to be affected by it yesterday -- he was clearly desperate to fight back against the criticism and get forward more. He missed Stoke's best chance of the game. I would have to say he's a good defender but he was totally skinned by Arshavin as he jumped in to make a hollywood tackle which should've led to Walcott scoring our second. And he was making dodgy passes that were going out for throw-ins. The crowd made things difficult...and as much as people might think players are professionals that are used to it, when a player is targeted like that, it's bound to have an affect. Players are only human.

    Similarly, every time an Arsenal player hits the deck we get the "Same ol' Arsenal" chant...that is the opposition fans making life difficult for our players. That's them thinking they're morally superior because they are honest and never go down easily.

    Give me a ****in' break, the article's full of ****.
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    Tthe article would be relevant two years ago, but Arsenal fans have changed their attitudes, we gave Stoke stick because they are a profoundly horrible club. Not because of their style of play but their history of awful awful challenges which isn't football on any level.

    Yesterday they weren't abysmal in their challenges, and I think after the initial repulsion to bad football, most fans realised this.

    On a personal level, I practically adore when my players are strong, when they tackle (correctly) but toughly, when I see Song or Koscielny making a spectacular tackle, just nicking the ball away from the opponent, and then I see the **** go tumbling, I roar with appreciation. Other teams are allowed to do this also. But when the fouls become reckless and miscalculated, this is when I get angry. And Stoke are reknowned for silly football. A tackle has to be clever *****es, and Stoke are the antithesis of clever.

    Stupid, if you will.
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    I personally have nothing against Stoke City FC and I'm sure many here feel the same way. The hatred is directed towards Pulis and certain individuals on that team.

    The hatred is not for the way they play, every team reserve the right to play however they wish, they might frustrate us but obviously so do many other teams in the EPL and that doesn't mean we react the same way we did yesterday when they come to the Emirates.

    The emotions stem from the public statements made by Pulis, the reaction Shawcross got in the media and that reprehensible tackle which he still thinks is OK.
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    Another point, the article screams of someone who excitedly wrote this up days ago when he knew Stoke were visiting, predicting there would be one of Wenger's usual "whinges" - but there was nothing of the sort. From the players? Nothing again. So he decides to make it about the fans and comes out with one of the most pointless pieces of journalism I've seen on that website.
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    Loulou suggested people were Deshi'ing all over this thread and he wasn't wrong.

    (Original post by poly-)
    Tthe article would be relevant two years ago, but Arsenal fans have changed their attitudes, we gave Stoke stick because they are a profoundly horrible club. Not because of their style of play but their history of awful awful challenges which isn't football on any level.
    You managed to contradict yourself either side of a single comma :congrats:

    I hate when people think they have a divine right to decide who should be in the league and want clubs to justify themselves for having the audacity to appear on the fixture list. This season I've seen it aimed at Stoke for their style, Blackpool for having terrible facilities and Wigan for having a city that doesn't care about football.

    John Terry would have a fit ffs.
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    Instead of picking out a couple of sentences from a certain poster and concluding it's the opinion of 'most Arsenal fans' as is common practice on a forum which is rapidly declining in interesting debate or intelligent thought, does anyone care to put forward a constructive argument that challenges the majority of good views on this very page -- milkytea, myself, m:ckel or in2deep?
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    Overs, I don't think there's much to challenge in your respective posts, especially given how terrible the article in question is.


    Also, poly- has been banned.
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    I never suggested it was representative of the thoughts of most Arsenal fans, I was admonishing a user who has now been banned so was most likely an offensive troll anyway. I was merely musing aloud as it seemed like a fair point to make, I didn't even suggest it was Arsenal fans in the second paragraph, more football fans at large. The 4 users you have pinpointed are arguably some of the most level headed on here and rarely resort to name calling and silly tittle tattle as others in here do, hence I had no real point to make against anything said.

    In regards to the article, it shouldn't surprise anyone that Shawcross inciting a heated reception. Whether he's 'that type of lad' or not, if you put someone out of action for a year you are going to feel some heat when you face said character's public. In the stadium during the game, it's all fun and games. People pay extortionate amounts of money and have a right to boo, jeer and whistle, it is entertainment after all. However, it was not just that article that noted some fans shouting that Stoke and Pulis are a disgrace after the game. It was on the Beeb live text last night and I've seen it elsewhere. That's where the problem a lot of fans have with the Arsenal stereotype, that they play the best football and have the moral highground over all others. I can't be bothered pulling it out again but I posted in the Villa thread month ago the long ball stats and Stoke actually compare quite favourable. I know that they now get branded as thugs for their intensity but I saw people in here delighted when Wilshere made the point about being tough with Barca players. Stoke aren't a massively dirty team, stats can tell you anything though. Stoke have 2 red cards and 47 yellows in the league, Arsenal have 6 reds and 42 yellows. I think that's been bandied around in recent days but it seems a reasonable one to pull out.
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    (Original post by Overmars)
    Now I have.

    What do you make of it?
    I agree with most of the previous responses, though I think Arsenal fans on TSR are a lot more rational and reasonable than fans in real life; I've listened to some hilariously extreme rants about Stoke irl. I did question the motives and rationale behind the article, which mockel summed up perfectly.
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    Let's discuss something else: How crucial Chamakh was to the win.

    :smug:
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    (Original post by Colbert)
    I never suggested it was representative of the thoughts of most Arsenal fans, I was admonishing a user who has now been banned so was most likely an offensive troll anyway. I was merely musing aloud as it seemed like a fair point to make, I didn't even suggest it was Arsenal fans in the second paragraph, more football fans at large. The 4 users you have pinpointed are arguably some of the most level headed on here and rarely resort to name calling and silly tittle tattle as others in here do, hence I had no real point to make against anything said.

    In regards to the article, it shouldn't surprise anyone that Shawcross inciting a heated reception. Whether he's 'that type of lad' or not, if you put someone out of action for a year you are going to feel some heat when you face said character's public. In the stadium during the game, it's all fun and games. People pay extortionate amounts of money and have a right to boo, jeer and whistle, it is entertainment after all. However, it was not just that article that noted some fans shouting that Stoke and Pulis are a disgrace after the game. It was on the Beeb live text last night and I've seen it elsewhere. That's where the problem a lot of fans have with the Arsenal stereotype, that they play the best football and have the moral highground over all others. I can't be bothered pulling it out again but I posted in the Villa thread month ago the long ball stats and Stoke actually compare quite favourable. I know that they now get branded as thugs for their intensity but I saw people in here delighted when Wilshere made the point about being tough with Barca players. Stoke aren't a massively dirty team, stats can tell you anything though. Stoke have 2 red cards and 47 yellows in the league, Arsenal have 6 reds and 42 yellows. I think that's been bandied around in recent days but it seems a reasonable one to pull out.
    Ok -- sorry for the confusion.

    I don't know how long it has been since I last made my views on this clear -- I think it has probably been about a year -- but I've given up hope now, as has Wenger. I have given up on arguing against dangerous tackles, I have given up complaining about teams coming to the Emirates with the main objective of kicking players. I have given up because nothing's going to be done about it. I'd much rather Arsenal just started playing in a similar way when up against those teams and that's exactly what they have done this season (and for some of last). It's no coincidence that they find themselves with the higher number of red/yellow cards and a higher position in the league.

    The rivalry Arsenal fans have with Stoke goes far beyond their tactics and most of the ill-feeling is directed at the manager who, for about a month last season kept coming out with digs directed at Wenger and the club.

    As for the moral highground -- I don't know if kids phoning up on 606 and crying about Stoke counts as the consensus of Arsenal fans, whether some fan that supposedly shouted "You're a disgrace to the league" is the consensus of Arsenal fans or whether what I'm saying here is the Arsenal stereotype. All I know is that I don't group a set of fans as one. I don't feel the need to comment on how this might be the Stoke stereotype: http://oatcakefanzine.proboards.com/...&thread=151669 ...

    For my money, the talk of this Arsenal attitude where people are snobbish of the way they play football is completely out-dated. The pressure that Wenger is under should tell you that. Many fans wanted him out, and many will if Arsenal don't deliver this season...regardless of whether Squillaci bundles in a corner in the final or if Arshavin sweeps home a counter-attacking move. There is some ill-feeling with Stoke, and probably Birmingham, after suffering two big injuries -- and having to play them both in a week might've stirred up those ill-feelings but otherwise I haven't heard many complaints.
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    (Original post by Overmars)

    For my money, the talk of this Arsenal attitude where people are snobbish of the way they play football is completely out-dated. The pressure that Wenger is under should tell you that. Many fans wanted him out, and many will if Arsenal don't deliver this season...regardless of whether Squillaci bundles in a corner in the final or if Arshavin sweeps home a counter-attacking move. There is some ill-feeling with Stoke, and probably Birmingham, after suffering two big injuries -- and having to play them both in a week might've stirred up those ill-feelings but otherwise I haven't heard many complaints.
    Hardly out-dated, tbh. Just a few days ago some in this thread were admonishing Utd's performance in their win, but delighted with your performance when Orient took you to a replay. And if you look back to the aftermath of the Barca result it's even worse, wrt to the stylistic merits of your play.

    Wrt to the Stoke attitude, stuff like Frankencross do not help.
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    (Original post by Overmars)
    Ok -- sorry for the confusion.

    I don't know how long it has been since I last made my views on this clear -- I think it has probably been about a year -- but I've given up hope now, as has Wenger. I have given up on arguing against dangerous tackles, I have given up complaining about teams coming to the Emirates with the main objective of kicking players. I have given up because nothing's going to be done about it. I'd much rather Arsenal just started playing in a similar way when up against those teams and that's exactly what they have done this season (and for some of last). It's no coincidence that they find themselves with the higher number of red/yellow cards and a higher position in the league.
    Like this?

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    (Original post by Overmars)
    Ok -- sorry for the confusion.

    I don't know how long it has been since I last made my views on this clear -- I think it has probably been about a year -- but I've given up hope now, as has Wenger. I have given up on arguing against dangerous tackles, I have given up complaining about teams coming to the Emirates with the main objective of kicking players. I have given up because nothing's going to be done about it. I'd much rather Arsenal just started playing in a similar way when up against those teams and that's exactly what they have done this season (and for some of last). It's no coincidence that they find themselves with the higher number of red/yellow cards and a higher position in the league.

    The rivalry Arsenal fans have with Stoke goes far beyond their tactics and most of the ill-feeling is directed at the manager who, for about a month last season kept coming out with digs directed at Wenger and the club.

    As for the moral highground -- I don't know if kids phoning up on 606 and crying about Stoke counts as the consensus of Arsenal fans, whether some fan that supposedly shouted "You're a disgrace to the league" is the consensus of Arsenal fans or whether what I'm saying here is the Arsenal stereotype. All I know is that I don't group a set of fans as one. I don't feel the need to comment on how this might be the Stoke stereotype: http://oatcakefanzine.proboards.com/...&thread=151669 ...

    For my money, the talk of this Arsenal attitude where people are snobbish of the way they play football is completely out-dated. The pressure that Wenger is under should tell you that. Many fans wanted him out, and many will if Arsenal don't deliver this season...regardless of whether Squillaci bundles in a corner in the final or if Arshavin sweeps home a counter-attacking move. There is some ill-feeling with Stoke, and probably Birmingham, after suffering two big injuries -- and having to play them both in a week might've stirred up those ill-feelings but otherwise I haven't heard many complaints.
    Agree tbh :yy: I would love the authorities to use retrospective bans for players to stamp out all forms of foul play, whether it be horror challenges or simulation. Refs should watch the entire game back on video (maybe they already do?) and in rare cases change decisions or extend setences. I can't think of any shockers in the league off the top of my head this season though I am sure there have been some. Flamini on Corluka would be a prime candidate though, for example.

    Trust me, I don't think anyone takes 606 callers as representatives of their club. Last night on 5Live a Spurs fan called up and complained that 0-1 at the San Siro wasn't an positive result, saying he'd prefer a 1-2 win instead. Some people are never pleased. Also, I don't think anyone would suggest for a second you are anything like an Arsenal stereotype. RobbieC fits that bill quite snugly though :mmm:
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    I read the article earlier today and found it to be quite boirng and didn't give any thought to it. Terrible piece of journalism based solely on stereotype media view that's just not true and didn't really offer any interesting points.

    As a lot of people mentioned in the comment section of the article the booing of Delap's throw happens in every ground in the PL. It's only when its us booing it, it becomes football fans being snobs.

    Arsenal fans get accused of being terrible fans when it comes to getting behind their team but when we do and make life diffcult for the opposition like Overmars said, we are all of a sudden football snobs. If we hadn't booed Shawcroos, we would have being accussed of not getting behind our players, the team et al. And to be honest the reception Shawcross got wasn't terrible. Probably 1/2 of the crowd that started booing him stuck with it till the end (myself included)

    There is just no way of our club winning with this biased English media imho. And tbh, I don't give a tiny rat's a***.

    On a more important point, how do you guys rate Squillacci's performance yesterday. I thought he was very good, really complemented Djourou and for once looked massively comfortable on the ball.

    Look may it continue
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    (Original post by Colbert)
    Agree tbh :yy: I would love the authorities to use retrospective bans for players to stamp out all forms of foul play, whether it be horror challenges or simulation. Refs should watch the entire game back on video (maybe they already do?) and in rare cases change decisions or extend setences. I can't think of any shockers in the league off the top of my head this season though I am sure there have been some. Flamini on Corluka would be a prime candidate though, for example.
    The Karl Henry collection (he's not that kind of player) spring to mind.
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    (Original post by Hantheman)
    The Karl Henry collection (he's not that kind of player) spring to mind.
    Knew there'd be someone I forgot about. He's been out of the news recently though, perhaps he's cleaned up his act or maybe we've just grown used to his antics
    • PS Reviewer
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    (Original post by Mr Smurf)
    Like this?

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    (Original post by alex_hk90)
    OT, but I noticed in your sig that you're reading The Black Swan; it was referenced last year in a lecture I had (but from a psychology perspective, rather an economics one). Do you reckon it's worth reading for someone who is clueless about anything economics related (as I probably won't understand the "wider implications" of the book)?
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    Fabregas officially ruled out of the game against Birmingham according to the BBC.
 
 
 
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