Is Scottish independence a 'good or bad' thing? Watch

Poll: Should Scotland be an independent country?
YES (299)
32.12%
NO (632)
67.88%
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Good bloke
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#4661
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(Original post by Boab)
"Crush those rebellious Scots" from 'God save The Queen'? The English rugby fans sing 'Swing Low Sweet Chariot' which is just ****ed up! And, my favourite, 'Jerusalem' which is a great sounding anthem, but singing a song about the Crusades at a soldier's funeral who has died in the Middle East stretches irony a bit far!
You seem to like believing in myths. I know where you got the mythical anti-Scottish verse from, but I'd love to learn why you think Jerusalem is about the crusades.

You should know that SLSC was first sung at an England match by supporters specifically in honour of the debut of black player, Chris Oti, and it caught on from there.
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Left Hand Drive
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#4662
(Original post by Aj12)
Are you.suggesting an independent Scotland would be able to.defend itself better than it currently can?


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don't we contribute 3.5 billion to defense and only have 2 billion spent in Scotland?
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Left Hand Drive
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#4663
(Original post by Midlander)
So when you are proven to be contradicted that is the best you can do? All that song shows is that people still view England as the enemy or failing that, still have a chip on their shoulder about things which happened 700 years ago.

Nazi Germany bombed my city to smithereens just over 70 years ago but yet nobody here sings of 'proud Hitler's armies' or bears grudges despite the events being in living memory for some. Anglophobia and Scottish nationalism are intertwined, there is no two ways about it.


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It seems you are the one with a chip on your shoulder. Or a sore loser perhaps? Are we to forget our countries history? All the line is saying is we won against a foreign invader? Why does that upset you?
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Good bloke
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(Original post by Left Hand Drive)
It seems you are the one with a chip on your shoulder. Or a sore loser perhaps? Are we to forget our countries history? All the line is saying is we won against a foreign invader? Why does that upset you?
I don't think it upsets him. His point is that some Scots seem to make a point of remembering things 700 years ago, but seem to forget that the last two invasions were by Scpots into England.
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BAD AT MATHS
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#4665
Nein nein nein! :fuhrer:
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Aj12
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#4666
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#4666
(Original post by Left Hand Drive)
don't we contribute 3.5 billion to defense and only have 2 billion spent in Scotland?
So? That's not how defense works. You cannot measure it in terms of how much is spent in a particular area
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Midlander
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#4667
(Original post by Left Hand Drive)
It seems you are the one with a chip on your shoulder. Or a sore loser perhaps? Are we to forget our countries history? All the line is saying is we won against a foreign invader? Why does that upset you?
Because the implication is very obviously that we are still present day 'foreign invaders', when such rhetoric should surely be obsolete. We don't seem to mention invasions made by Scots across the border, or more recent conflicts with other nations.

It's always nasty England bullying poor little Scotland.
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MatureStudent36
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#4668
(Original post by Left Hand Drive)
don't we contribute 3.5 billion to defense and only have 2 billion spent in Scotland?
Not quite.

The good people of the West Midlands pay into the pot and don't get any shipbuilding, naval bases, airfields etc.
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Midlander
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#4669
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
Not quite.

The good people of the West Midlands pay into the pot and don't get any shipbuilding, naval bases, airfields etc.
We have several RAF bases but yes, not much. Lest we also forget that whilst the Clyde lost a good number of shipbuilding jobs, Portsmouth has lost all of them.

Still, Dave 'Longshanks' Cameron doesn't care about Scotland.
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cowsforsale
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#4670
(Original post by Midlander)
Find me any quotes from Salmond or Sturgeon where they make complaints about Wales or NI and not England. How many Yes campaigners have said 'What do I have in common with someone from Cardiff/Belfast?' instead of South East England?
Do you ever listen to the Yes! campaign? Or does your prejudice cause you to filter out everything they say and label it as xenophobic?

Why wouldn't they refer to the South East of England? Even your business secretary admitted that,

"One of the big problems that we have at the moment, which I don't think the report sufficiently addresses, is that London is becoming a kind of giant suction machine, draining the life out of the rest of the country. "

Even Boris said a pound spent in Croydon is better than in Strathclyde.

This is going to be the way things are for a long time to come, especially seeing as Scottish votes are practically meaningless when it comes to who's in charge of the UK.
Scotland contributes more to the treasury than it gets back and has done for many years - and this is currently on going under a devolved government. With Cameron being pressured to cut the Barnett Formula (possibly £4 bn to Scotland's budget) and not able to guarantee funding, things are only going to get worse in the event of a no vote.

As for those clips, the comments get made in retaliation to all of the Anglophobic bile that makes its way down.
What Anglophobic comments? Cite your sources.

I've lurked this thread for a long time, and all I constantly see from you are personal anecdotes and constantly tossing around "xenophobia", "anti-English" and "Anglophobia". You might understand why I'm going to take your stuff with a pinch of salt.

Your buddy, maturestudent36, tried to perpetuate this nonsense too, and got his ass handed to him. Note how he has to fall back to old habits and have a dig by using Braveheart?
Meanwhile, the guys down South aren't afraid to label (incorrectly) the Scots as subsidy junkies - For example and this
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cowsforsale
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#4671
(Original post by Aj12)
Are you.suggesting an independent Scotland would be able to.defend itself better than it currently can?


Posted from TSR Mobile
Don't worry, we still have John Smeaton.
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cowsforsale
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(Original post by L i b)
That someone (Ruth Davidson) has a bias doesn't make what they say wrong. It isn't even a good argument for scepticism. .
(Original post by L i b)
It's not a story, it's a dodgy website saying that they've seen a leaked draft of a document. I simply wouldn't believe them. Moreover, if you're going to talk about bias, at least kindly note the foaming-at-the-mouth anti-BBC nonsense on that website.
That's how it works then? The BBC have shown their bias numerous times.

BBC the new hammer of the Scots.
Greens accuse BBC of bias
BBC Scotland Bias
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cowsforsale
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(Original post by L i b)
Are they? To me, they seem quite amateurish. Particularly given that there is £1,600 extra public spending assigned for every single person in Scotland above that of a person in England. Are Scottish people really getting their £1,600 worth?
Why aren't you mentioning the fact that Scotland contributes more than it gets back? Why not mention that there is more spending per person in NI and Wales than in England?


They've got a populist system of student support based on 'free' tuition fees which has resulted in less poorer students going to university.
And you think charging students would rectify this all of sudden? How can you even make such a blanket statement like that, there are obviously other factors involved, e.g people deciding that maybe uni isn't the best option and choosing the route
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MatureStudent36
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(Original post by cowsforsale)
That's how it works then? The BBC have shown their bias numerous times.

BBC the new hammer of the Scots.
Greens accuse BBC of bias
BBC Scotland Bias
Yet the BBC have been accused of being pro SNP.

http://www.newstatesman.com/media/br...s-pro-snp-bias
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MatureStudent36
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#4675
(Original post by cowsforsale)
Why aren't you mentioning the fact that Scotland contributes more than it gets back? Why not mention that there is more spending per person in NI and Wales than in England?




And you think charging students would rectify this all of sudden? How can you even make such a blanket statement like that, there are obviously other factors involved, e.g people deciding that maybe uni isn't the best option and choosing the route
We don't pay in more than we get back though. You need to be very careful when using SNP figures that have been cherry picked.

I'm glad you've finally mentioned Northern Ireland and Wales though. There is more spending per head there than in England. There's also less revenue created from them. So it kind of makes the mockery of London and the SE are taking all of Scotland's money.
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Midlander
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(Original post by cowsforsale)
Do you ever listen to the Yes! campaign? Or does your prejudice cause you to filter out everything they say and label it as xenophobic?

My landlord, who I live with, is a Yes voter and SNP member. He speaks a lot of sense with his views on the referendum. Even then, he does occasionally trot out stereotypes of English people as right wing, less socially responsible and so on, which is why I have such a problem separating the Yes campaign from having at least some xenophobic element.


Why wouldn't they refer to the South East of England? Even your business secretary admitted that,

"One of the big problems that we have at the moment, which I don't think the report sufficiently addresses, is that London is becoming a kind of giant suction machine, draining the life out of the rest of the country. "

Even Boris said a pound spent in Croydon is better than in Strathclyde.

Vince Cable's comments were crudely expressed but showed a belief that is being addressed by Westminster-that wealth is too heavily concentrated in London and the UK will prosper more if other cities get more investment and autonomy. It doesn't quite explain why Yes voters centre on cultural differences with the South East of England and nowhere else.


This is going to be the way things are for a long time to come, especially seeing as Scottish votes are practically meaningless when it comes to who's in charge of the UK.
Were they meaningless when we had 3 consecutive Labour governments?

Scotland contributes more to the treasury than it gets back and has done for many years - and this is currently on going under a devolved government. With Cameron being pressured to cut the Barnett Formula (possibly £4 bn to Scotland's budget) and not able to guarantee funding, things are only going to get worse in the event of a no vote.

According to Scottish government figures (http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/0041/00418420.pdf)Scotland paid in £10,700 per head in 2011-12. Its public spending was £64.5b in the same year, which, assuming a population of 5.3m (http://www.gro-scotland.gov.uk/press...-scotland.html), equates to £12,170 per head, or a net subsidy of £1,500. Have I missed something?

What Anglophobic comments? Cite your sources.

I've lurked this thread for a long time, and all I constantly see from you are personal anecdotes and constantly tossing around "xenophobia", "anti-English" and "Anglophobia". You might understand why I'm going to take your stuff with a pinch of salt.

Your buddy, maturestudent36, tried to perpetuate this nonsense too, and got his ass handed to him. Note how he has to fall back to old habits and have a dig by using Braveheart?
Meanwhile, the guys down South aren't afraid to label (incorrectly) the Scots as subsidy junkies - For example and this
This thread has seen posters claim that England is out to hold Scotland in chains, that Westminster is out to steal Scotland's money for itself, that it doesn't care about Scottish interests and so on. Scotland is a part of the UK-as long as it is, then the interests of Scotland and the UK are mutual. Scotland's partnership in the union brought it immense wealth as part of the Empire, and its contribution to imperialism through this was not inconsiderable.

Even now you can't bring yourself to say 'England' in place of 'down South'. You see lots of anecdotes from me here because they are all true and come from 4 and a half years spent living in Scotland; even unionist Scots can't resist making the odd dig from time to time. It is just endemic to the culture and is exemplified by how this independence debate has always been about England and Scotland, not Wales, Northern Ireland, England and Scotland.
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Midlander
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(Original post by cowsforsale)
Why aren't you mentioning the fact that Scotland contributes more than it gets back? Why not mention that there is more spending per person in NI and Wales than in England?
The order of spending is, in general, NI>Scotland>Wales>England, true. Also, considering how Wales and NI are virtually never included for criticism by Yes campaigners, it is somewhat rich of you to seek for it from the other side. Scottish government figures show, if the reader does the calculations, that Scotland gets more than it puts in. Of course, it is highly probable that Wales and NI do the same-but they aren't the ones campaigning to leave.
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Midlander
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(Original post by MatureStudent36)
We don't pay in more than we get back though. You need to be very careful when using SNP figures that have been cherry picked.

I'm glad you've finally mentioned Northern Ireland and Wales though. There is more spending per head there than in England. There's also less revenue created from them. So it kind of makes the mockery of London and the SE are taking all of Scotland's money.
It is also worth mentioning that substantial areas of London suffer from the same poverty issues which affect other parts of the UK, and crime is substantially higher also. This image some have of all the streets being paved with gold is a little off the mark. The real wealth is held in the City, not the boroughs, and the home counties.
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Midlander
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As an aside, here is a comment from a Northern Irishman I know on why support for the union is generally high over there:

Well, objectively, N.Ireland benefits hugely economically from being in the Union. Both in terms of trade but also in terms of tax money. The N.I economy is improving but, seeing as it is still rebuilding itself from the troubles, it still needs a lot of state support and there is no way that the ROI could afford to invest as much into N.I as the UK can.

It has be said that there isn't really that much appetite for a United Ireland at the moment in time. Even among people who would identify as nationalist or republican, the majority are happy to be part of the UK at this moment in time.

I think a United Ireland is probably going to come about at some stage but I don't think it will be any time soon.
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MatureStudent36
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