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    (Original post by Snagprophet)
    So, at least this ceasefire has actually lasted a unit of time. I wonder why Israel agreed with it seeing as they totally want to commit genocide, right?
    Because they had egg on their faces from the "captured prisoner" debacle?
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    So there will still be civilian casualties?

    [/B]

    A lot of people, especially those on the ground.

    Does Israel control one half of the border? Are Egypt dancing to Israel's tune?

    Did you ever consider that Egypt is not dancing to Israel's tune, but would rather keep its country as free of terrorist activity as possible? And that Gaza is run by a terrorist government which is why there is a blockade?

    You can send 30 million tons of food. It'll all rot if Israel, or Egypt, does not allow it through.

    That isn't true. There is food getting through as well as funds from various sources. Show me one source where it states that all humanitarian aid sent to Gaza rots in Israel and Egypt.

    You want to hold HAMAS accountable like a government of a state but yet you refuse to recognise it and deal with them.d

    I don't refuse to deal with them. Israel does. The point wasn't about their relations with Israel, however. The point was about what they do as a government for their people. Because, if no one else, at least their people consider them a legitimate government. It's disgusting that you try to excuse the fact that they haven't provided appropriate shelters and safety for civilians by the fact that Israel considers them terrorist.


    Not the first time double standards have been employed..

    Indeed.



    If they are going to be killed either way, isn't it better that you get something major as a bargaining chip then just throwing your own life away on the cheap

    I don't know, some would consider getting food and medicine back to what you claim to be an impoverished land much more major than blowing yourself up in a square and causing terror. Weren't you the one who said that Israel is trying to starve Gaza?




    The only tangible link you've drawn is that they are "underground". I think that was pretty self-explanatory.

    There is a reason why we call a shelter a shelter and a tunnel a tunnel. If you are confused, one is for "permanence" and one is simply to "move through". I'll let you decide which is which...

    Yeah, no ****. But Hamas hasn't built shelters. They have built tunnels. They're not as safe as shelters, but safer than sitting on your house's roof while it gets bombed, I believe.




    [B]Could you give us a number?

    Could you stop being so trivial? If you fire from the middle of an empty field rather than the middle of a busy city, then logically you will have far less civilian victims.

    Then I urge you to pay a visit.

    Have YOU been to Gaza? I know they organize 'camps' for Western extreme leftist university students in the West Bank and then show them through various methods of whining how difficult they have it. I wasn't aware they let just anyone go to Gaza, though.

    But really, the major point which you have failed to address every single time is whether you believe that it's more important to place your crops at risk or your people at risk given that your crops are not going to be able to sustain your population anyway. You have failed to address it and have attempted to deflect from the original point by spouting ridiculous crap about how Gaza will not be able to be sustain itself if its crops are bombed and that's what Israel wants. Except, Gaza does not depend on its crops to sustain itself. It depends on Humanitarian Aid,
    anyway. So, address the point before you spout any more bull****, please.
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    (Original post by UniOfLife)
    It doesn't matter how old they are. The fact remains that the number of dead Palestinians in Gaza is so small relative to the population that it has no effect on the life expectancy.
    It kinda does when they are dead. I don't think you know how life expectancy is worked out...

    People earlier in this thread claimed that the people of Gaza are not allowed food or basic medical supplies. Having established that this is not true, in what way is Gaza like a prison?
    They are allowed the bare minimum in order to survive. They have to be dependent on the "goodwill" of the Israeli's (Jailers)...
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    (Original post by Snagprophet)
    So, at least this ceasefire has actually lasted a unit of time. I wonder why Israel agreed with it seeing as they totally want to commit genocide, right?
    :lol:

    Sarcasm?
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    Because they had egg on their faces from the "captured prisoner" debacle?
    I don't really get that. They thought one of their guys was prisoner, but now he's assumed dead. Why does this even matter? It's not as if their actions changed due to this.
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    (Original post by miavdbt)
    Did you ever consider that Egypt is not dancing to Israel's tune, but would rather keep its country as free of terrorist activity as possible? And that Gaza is run by a terrorist government which is why there is a blockade?
    Ironic when the now Egypt, was born out of terrorist activity.

    That isn't true. There is food getting through as well as funds from various sources. Show me one source where it states that all humanitarian aid sent to Gaza rots in Israel and Egypt.
    If Israel/Egypt does not let the goods through, can they be "sent back to sender"?

    I don't refuse to deal with them. Israel does. The point wasn't about their relations with Israel, however. The point was about what they do as a government for their people. Because, if no one else, at least their people consider them a legitimate government. It's disgusting that you try to excuse the fact that they haven't provided appropriate shelters and safety for civilians by the fact that Israel considers them terrorist.
    You are trying to hold them accountable like a government when no one else recognises them as a legitimate government.

    You can't have double standards...

    I don't know, some would consider getting food and medicine back to what you claim to be an impoverished land much more major than blowing yourself up in a square and causing terror. Weren't you the one who said that Israel is trying to starve Gaza?
    Getting food/medicine for yourself = 1 brownie point.
    Capturing a soldier = 1,000,000 brownie points.

    You know you are hated when the "other side" would rather capture a soldier for all Palestinians than get food/medicine for themselves...

    Yeah, no ****. But Hamas hasn't built shelters. They have built tunnels. They're not as safe as shelters, but safer than sitting on your house's roof while it gets bombed, I believe.
    We've been over this.

    It's Kind of redundant without any warning systems unless you advocate living in them permanently without any safe air supply. It'll be like the gas chambers...

    Could you stop being so trivial? If you fire from the middle of an empty field rather than the middle of a busy city, then logically you will have far less civilian victims.
    Let's try this another way:

    If the Palestinians did as you suggested, how many casualties would have been inflicted by now instead of the 1,500 odd?

    Have YOU been to Gaza? I know they organize 'camps' for Western extreme leftist university students in the West Bank and then show them through various methods of whining how difficult they have it. I wasn't aware they let just anyone go to Gaza, though.
    It is difficult...

    But really, the major point which you have failed to address every single time is whether you believe that it's more important to place your crops at risk or your people at risk given that your crops are not going to be able to sustain your population anyway. You have failed to address it and have attempted to deflect from the original point by spouting ridiculous crap about how Gaza will not be able to be sustain itself if its crops are bombed and that's what Israel wants. Except, Gaza does not depend on its crops to sustain itself. It depends on Humanitarian Aid, anyway. So, address the point before you spout any more bull****, please.
    Listen fella:

    The responsibility is Israel's to ensure that they do not kill civilians. It is not HAMAS's responsibility nor the responsibility of the Palestinians.

    If Israel are so concerned about civilian casualties, they wouldn't carry out air strikes or a ground ops.
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    It kinda does when they are dead. I don't think you know how life expectancy is worked out...

    They are allowed the bare minimum in order to survive. They have to be dependent on the "goodwill" of the Israeli's (Jailers)...
    I don't think you know how statistics work. Even if all the dead died age 0 it would not affect the overall statistic because they would be outliers and overwhelmed by the sheer number of other data points.
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    (Original post by Snagprophet)
    I don't really get that. They thought one of their guys was prisoner, but now he's assumed dead. Why does this even matter? It's not as if their actions changed due to this.
    It did. They started pulling back their ground personnel...
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    (Original post by tengentoppa)
    I don't think corruption is the right word.

    It's a case of factional divides in the UN hindering their efforts to achieve world peace.

    I think the point on the UN human rights council is a good one. It's seen as an absolute moral authority when perhaps it should not, and it's true that the UN is turning a blind eye to lots of abuses throughout the world.
    I aim the 'corruption' charge at the 'buying' of votes at the UN. Like the guy explained in this vid - Arabs give a country oil in return for its votes against Israel for example.

    I think that behaviour within the UN and the UNHCR can be described as corruption. It's essentially paying nations off for favours.
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    It did. They started pulling back their ground personnel...
    So why is that egg on their face? They can just put the tanks back again.
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    Listen fella:

    The responsibility is Israel's to ensure that they do not kill civilians. It is not HAMAS's responsibility nor the responsibility of the Palestinians.

    If Israel are so concerned about civilian casualties, they wouldn't carry out air strikes or a ground ops.

    Makes sense to me.

    "Hey boss, there's people shooting at us"

    "Well return fire damnit"

    "But sir, they're doing it from a hospital"

    "Oh well, I guess we do nothing then"
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    (Original post by UniOfLife)
    I don't think you know how statistics work. Even if all the dead died age 0 it would not affect the overall statistic because they would be outliers and overwhelmed by the sheer number of other data points.
    Let's work through a practical example so that you understand.

    You have 20 people of varying ages:

    12, 29, 74, 14, 11, 8, 34, 22, 61, 17, 74, 89, 37, 71, 2, 54, 7, 91, 25, 107

    The average age: 83.9


    Now, say:

    a) First 10 killed. LE lowered to: 28.2
    b) Second 10 killed. LE lowered to: 55.7
    c) Every other person killed (even): 50.2
    d) Every other person killed (odd): 33.7

    My calculations my be a little off (Maths is not my strongest subject) but even I can see what the wholesale slaughter of a core demographic group would do to the life expectancy age.

    I suggest you reflect on and re-evaluate your argument...
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    Ironic when the now Egypt, was born out of terrorist activity

    They wouldn't want any more extremists causing chaos. Can't blame them. Nobody wants Hamas terrorists in their countries.


    If Israel/Egypt does not let the goods through, can they be "sent back to sender"?

    What are you on about?

    You are trying to hold them accountable like a government when no one else recognises them as a legitimate government.

    You can't have double standards...

    ​I don't have double standards. Hamas may not be a recognized government in the eyes of the world, but it is in the eyes of Gazans. Why doesn't Hamas do anything for the people which you claim have democratically elected this 'government' ? Why hasn't Hamas kept its civilians safe?


    Let's try this another way:

    If the Palestinians did as you suggested, how many casualties would have been inflicted by now instead of the 1,500 odd?
    [I]

    Far less.



    It is difficult...



    Listen fella:

    The responsibility is Israel's to ensure that they do not kill civilians. It is not HAMAS's responsibility nor the responsibility of the Palestinians.

    If Israel are so concerned about civilian casualties, they wouldn't carry out air strikes or a ground ops.

    It isn't the responsibility of Israel to build shelters for Gazans as well as to ensure that Hamas doesn't fire from civilian areas. It is the responsibility of Hamas, which is, in your own words, a democratically elected government by Gazans. You people are the ones hammering on about how Israel has killed so many civilians, when you don't even think about the fact that Hamas has done everything in its power to place civilians in danger.

    I will ask you one more time, and hopefully you won't try to deflect from the question by pointing fingers
    elsewhere.

    Should Hamas fire from an empty field with no civilians, or from the middle of a city filled with civilians?
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    (Original post by Snagprophet)
    So why is that egg on their face? They can just put the tanks back again.
    Because of their incompetence to gather the information in addition to their propensity to blame everything on HAMAS, well, they come to all sorts of conclusions without evidence.

    When other people (like the US) rely on said information and issue condemnations based on information which turns out to be wrong, then such a situation doesn't really sit well with people.

    In effect, someone's screw up yesterday with the information has led to this ground withdrawal and this "humanitarian ceasefire"....
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    Because of their incompetence to gather the information in addition to their propensity to blame everything on HAMAS, well, they come to all sorts of conclusions without evidence.
    Well they thought Hamas had him when really Hamas had killed him, not really putting more blame on Hamas. They declared him missing. Evidence he was missing? He wasn't present and was in Gaza. Again, it's not as if it had any impact at all on Gaza or Israel.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Does this mean that Reuters stands alone in the world and refers to the Hamas militants as a "military"?
    This is ridiculous. Here is a video with notices and News segments from Al Aqsa tv (run by Hamas) telling people to ignore IDF notices and stay home. Obviously, it is translated from Arabic with subtitles, but if you don't trust the subtitles you could ask someone who speaks Arabic to confirm it for you.

    Anyone who speaks Arabic on the page, please feel free to weigh in on the translations as well.

    Hamas Interior Minister Orders Citizens to Ignore IDF warnings
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    Let's work through a practical example so that you understand.

    You have 20 people of varying ages:

    12, 29, 74, 14, 11, 8, 34, 22, 61, 17, 74, 89, 37, 71, 2, 54, 7, 91, 25, 107

    The average age: 83.9


    Now, say:

    a) First 10 killed. LE lowered to: 28.2
    b) Second 10 killed. LE lowered to: 55.7
    c) Every other person killed (even): 50.2
    d) Every other person killed (odd): 33.7

    My calculations my be a little off (Maths is not my strongest subject) but even I can see what the wholesale slaughter of a core demographic group would do to the life expectancy age.

    I suggest you reflect on and re-evaluate your argument...
    Where you're going wrong is in not appreciating the importance of sample sizes. Your example consists of 20 data points and considers what happens if you change them all. But what we're dealing with in Gaza is a massive sample of size 1.5 million and changing the values of 1,500 of them. That is such a small change relative to the sample size that it's effect is negligible.

    Here is a python script showing what happens if you have 1.5 million people with life expectancies of 74 and change 1,500 of them to be a life expectancy of 0. The overall expectancy drop from 74 to 73.926. This is basic, trivial statistics. If maths is not your strongest subject then perhaps you should accept that you are wrong.

    import numpy as np

    lives = np.zeros(1500000)
    for i in xrange(0,1500000):
    lives[i] = 74
    print np.mean(lives)

    for i in xrange(1500):
    lives[i] = 0.0
    print np.mean(lives)
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    (Original post by miavdbt)
    They wouldn't want any more extremists causing chaos. Can't blame them. Nobody wants Hamas terrorists in their countries.
    The Palestinians do.

    What are you on about?


    If Israel does not allow the humanitarian aid to cross the border, are the goods sent back to the people who have sent the goods?

    ​I don't have double standards. Hamas may not be a recognized government in the eyes of the world, but it is in the eyes of Gazans. Why doesn't Hamas do anything for the people which you claim have democratically elected this 'government' ? Why hasn't Hamas kept its civilians safe?
    It has kept them safe. It has told them to stay at home instead of out on the streets.

    Far less.
    Care to translate that into number?

    It isn't the responsibility of Israel to build shelters for Gazans as well as to ensure that Hamas doesn't fire from civilian areas. It is the responsibility of Hamas, which is, in your own words, a democratically elected government by Gazans. You people are the ones hammering on about how Israel has killed so many civilians, when you don't even think about the fact that Hamas has done everything in its power to place civilians in danger.

    I will ask you one more time, and hopefully you won't try to deflect from the question by pointing fingers
    elsewhere.

    Should Hamas fire from an empty field with no civilians, or from the middle of a city filled with civilians?
    Let's get something straight.

    Israel is complaining and whining about the civilian losses. What you don't seem to realise is that if Israel stopped it's ground operation and aerial bombardment, there will be no civilian casualties.
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    (Original post by Snagprophet)
    Makes sense to me.

    "Hey boss, there's people shooting at us"

    "Well return fire damnit"

    "But sir, they're doing it from a hospital"

    "Oh well, I guess we do nothing then"
    They can try that.

    Would result in no civilian casualties...
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    Son of Hamas Founder tells the truth about Hamas in front of CNN

    This is for all the extreme left wing nuts here whose hearts bleed for terrorists. The most interesting part is when he says the destruction of Israel is not Hamas's 'final destination'.

    So much truth in less than three minutes.
 
 
 
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