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    (Original post by Snagprophet)
    Well they thought Hamas had him when really Hamas had killed him, not really putting more blame on Hamas. They declared him missing. Evidence he was missing? He wasn't present and was in Gaza. Again, it's not as if it had any impact at all on Gaza or Israel.
    I think the report was that he was killed by an Israeli shell which pulverised him...
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    (Original post by James222)
    Why has Fatah not been able to get a two state solution is over 60 years of non violence ? Fatah has achieved nothing no stop to settlements in the middle of arab cities or removal of illegal checkpoints.


    The reason Arab governments dont support Hamas is because Arab govts are not elected have no legitimacy and do everything in their power to curtail people power


    also Palestine has plenty of allies, the majority of the UN council voted to let Palestine Join despite strong lobbying by Israel,US and France
    Fatah - non-violence? What planet are you from?

    In fact, Fatah (or more accurately the PLO) did manage to secure the Oslo Accords which gave the Palestinians self rule in areas of the West Bank and Gaza for the first time in history. They have come closest to securing a two-state peace deal with negotiations reaching an advanced stage twice. Both times the Palestinian side refused the deal on the table.
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    The Palestinians do.

    ​Good, they got their wish.
    [/I]

    If Israel does not allow the humanitarian aid to cross the border, are the goods sent back to the people who have sent the goods?




    It has kept them safe. It has told them to stay at home instead of out on the streets.



    Care to translate that into number?[I]

    No. This is a stupid attempt to deflect from the main point which you've been engaging in this whole time. Nobody can say how much less, but far less since usually there are little to no people in fields.

    Let's get something straight.

    Israel is complaining and whining about the civilian losses. What you don't seem to realise is that if Israel stopped it's ground operation and aerial bombardment, there will be no civilian casualties.

    Ooh, okay, well Hamas might not fire from empty fields, but what about the evil Israel that hits civilians anyway? Isn't that the whataboutery that you like to accuse us of?


    Right. So you won't answer the question. Israel is not complaining and whining about civilian losses. Gaza is complaining and whining about civilian losses.

    You refuse to answer the question because you can't. Because you know what I said is perfectly logical. Tell me why Hamas won't fire its useless rockets from fields instead of busy cities! You can't?

    I'll tell you why. Because if Hamas fires and stores its rockets far away from civilians, Israel will be unlikely to hit any. As a result, the Hamas media war will fail. And that's all they have to rely on, International sympathy. Agree or disagree and why?

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    (Original post by UniOfLife)
    Where you're going wrong is in not appreciating the importance of sample sizes. Your example consists of 20 data points and considers what happens if you change them all. But what we're dealing with in Gaza is a massive sample of size 1.5 million and changing the values of 1,500 of them. That is such a small change relative to the sample size that it's effect is negligible.

    Here is a python script showing what happens if you have 1.5 million people with life expectancies of 74 and change 1,500 of them to be a life expectancy of 0. The overall expectancy drop from 74 to 73.926. This is basic, trivial statistics. If maths is not your strongest subject then perhaps you should accept that you are wrong.

    import numpy as np

    lives = np.zeros(1500000)
    for i in xrange(0,1500000):
    lives[i] = 74
    print np.mean(lives)

    for i in xrange(1500):
    lives[i] = 0.0
    print np.mean(lives)
    I still maintain that you have no idea how life expectancy is calculated.

    I believe that life expectancy is not calculated through people who are living, but by those who have died.

    As such, your "sample size" argument is made redundant because the premise is incorrect.


    I'm of course, happy to be corrected...
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    (Original post by miavdbt)
    Good, they got their wish.
    That is the concept of democracy.

    No. This is a stupid attempt to deflect from the main point which you've been engaging in this whole time. Nobody can say how much less, but far less since usually there are little to no people in fields.
    So you are unable to put a number on it? That's okay...

    Ooh, okay, well Hamas might not fire from empty fields, but what about the evil Israel that hits civilians anyway? Isn't that the whataboutery that you like to accuse us of?

    Right. So you won't answer the question. Israel is not complaining and whining about civilian losses. Gaza is complaining and whining about civilian losses.

    You refuse to answer the question because you can't. Because you know what I said is perfectly logical. Tell me why Hamas won't fire its useless rockets from fields instead of busy cities! You can't?

    I'll tell you why. Because if Hamas fires and stores its rockets far away from civilians, Israel will be unlikely to hit any. As a result, the Hamas media war will fail. And that's all they have to rely on, International sympathy. Agree or disagree and why?

    Are you just annoyed and frustrated because the Palestinians are playing the PR game better than the Israeli's who probably invented the ruddy game?
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    (Original post by Dorra Hadrich)
    Relax You gave me the answer I was expecting from you well a very stupid answer! thank you!! I just want to say that Israel isn't on their doorstep; it is invading Palestine... Israel wants to clean up the whole area and to take control of all of it! This is a GENOCIDE!! People are killed like crazy and you are still defending Israel!! Oh God; is there a human right there to talk with -_-
    The fact is Hamas is a designated terrorist group fact, Hamas want to eradicate Israel fact, so on that basis Israel have every right to do what they are doing. There are always casualties of war never forget that, name one war where there hasn't been?
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    That is the concept of democracy.



    So you are unable to put a number on it? That's okay...

    Any number I put on it will be guesswork. Logically, it will be less. How low the number will be is impossible to tell.



    Are you just annoyed and frustrated because the Palestinians are playing the PR game better than the Israeli's who probably invented the ruddy game?

    So you admit that Hamas is firing from busy cities for no other reason than because they want more of their civilians to die in order to garner International Sympathy? Finally, we're getting somewhere.
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    I still maintain that you have no idea how life expectancy is calculated.

    I believe that life expectancy is not calculated through people who are living, but by those who have died.

    As such, your "sample size" argument is made redundant because the premise is incorrect.


    I'm of course, happy to be corrected...
    No. The sample size is key to any statistical measure and is always relevant. In this case the sample size is very large compared to the number of outliers being introduced by war.
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    (Original post by UniOfLife)
    No. The sample size is key to any statistical measure and is always relevant. In this case the sample size is very large compared to the number of outliers being introduced by war.
    So tell me again, why were you comparing the 1500 deaths to the current population of Gaza and trying to work out the life expectancy?
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    (Original post by miavdbt)
    Any number I put on it will be guesswork. Logically, it will be less. How low the number will be is impossible to tell.
    Shouldn't it be Zero?

    So you admit that Hamas is firing from busy cities for no other reason than because they want more of their civilians to die in order to garner International Sympathy? Finally, we're getting somewhere.
    Except it is not HAMAS who are killing the civilians. If Israel does not want the death toll to mount up, then it needs to take action (i.e: withdrawal of forces and an end to aerial bombardment) but they are just too stubborn for that.

    The ball is in Israel's court...
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    So tell me again, why were you comparing the 1500 deaths to the current population of Gaza and trying to work out the life expectancy?
    I wasn't working out the life expectancy. I was showing the impact of a small number of extreme changes to a large sample size.

    You know, if you're right it should be fairly easy to demonstrate it. Go right ahead, I'd be very interested to see the maths.

    And of course all of this is entirely beside the point which, if you can recall that far back, was that the conditions in "open air prison Gaza" are evidently not as terrible as people might like to think if the life expectancy there is higher than in Glasgow.
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    Shouldn't it be Zero?
    [B][I]

    Nope. Not necessarily.

    Except it is not HAMAS who are killing the civilians. If Israel does not want the death toll to mount up, then it needs to take action (i.e: withdrawal of forces and an end to aerial bombardment) but they are just too stubborn for that.

    The ball is in Israel's court...

    Okay, listen, stop engaging in this whataboutery that you accuse everyone else of and explain why it is that Hamas is not protecting its civilians but doing the opposite and doing everything it can to put them in danger. You have been asked this numerous times but have failed to address it, instead trying to point fingers at Israel, when we're not discussing Israel but Hamas's tactics to 'protect' their civilians.

    Israel's airstrikes kill civilians because civilians happen to be standing next to the rockets that Hamas fires. This will not be the case if the rockets are fired from the middle of an empty field.


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    (Original post by UniOfLife)
    I wasn't working out the life expectancy. I was showing the impact of a small number of extreme changes to a large sample size.
    You've droned on and on about life expectancy. In fact, that was your OP.

    You know, if you're right it should be fairly easy to demonstrate it. Go right ahead, I'd be very interested to see the maths.
    I just did but then you decided to dispute it bringing in "living people" for some reason.

    And of course all of this is entirely beside the point which, if you can recall that far back, was that the conditions in "open air prison Gaza" are evidently not as terrible as people might like to think if the life expectancy there is higher than in Glasgow.
    I sense quite a bit of backtracking here. An analogy could be drawn with Netanyahu's comments over the weekend about the apparent capture of the soldier and the concluding remarks that HAMAS didn't in fact, capture the soldier...
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    (Original post by miavdbt)
    Nope. Not necessarily.
    Are you trying to tell us that Israel's precision weapons are not entirely precise and that is why they have this high Palestinian death toll?


    Okay, listen, stop engaging in this whataboutery that you accuse everyone else of and explain why it is that Hamas is not protecting its civilians but doing the opposite and doing everything it can to put them in danger. You have been asked this numerous times but have failed to address it, instead trying to point fingers at Israel, when we're not discussing Israel but Hamas's tactics to 'protect' their civilians.

    Israel's airstrikes kill civilians because civilians happen to be standing next to the rockets that Hamas fires. This will not be the case if the rockets are fired from the middle of an empty field.
    Israel complains about HAMAS using human shields, despite there being no definite or conclusive evidence.

    Ultimately, it is down to the Israeli's. If they do not want to explain a high death toll to the international community, then they should simply hold fire.
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    Mortar shell hits Eshkol but no warning sirens sounded.

    Has the ID simply failed?
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    You've droned on and on about life expectancy. In fact, that was your OP.



    I just did but then you decided to dispute it bringing in "living people" for some reason.



    I sense quite a bit of backtracking here. An analogy could be drawn with Netanyahu's comments over the weekend about the apparent capture of the soldier and the concluding remarks that HAMAS didn't in fact, capture the soldier...
    *sigh*

    Apparently this concept is very hard for you to comprehend. The life expectancy of 1.5 million people will not dramatically change with the early death of 1,500 of them.

    I sense quite a bit of avoiding the point here. You are of course free to ignore any inconvenient fact you like. But the reality is that life expectancy in Gaza does not fit with a place of starving people. Infant mortality rates there do not fit with a place without basic medical supplies. If you think of Gaza in that way then these facts ought to give you cause to pause and reconsider. If you choose to ignore them or try and wave them away as obviously wrong (maybe a conspiracy!) then that is your prerogative. I prefer to debate with people who at least live in the same reality as I do and are prepared to accept facts when presented to them from reliable sources.
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    Are you trying to tell us that Israel's precision weapons are not entirely precise and that is why they have this high Palestinian death toll?

    [B][I]

    ​That's not what I was getting at. People ignore warnings, people end up in the wrong place at the wrong time. All conflicts have some civilian deaths, so there will always be some civilian deaths, however they won't be as high as they are now.

    Israel complains about HAMAS using human shields, despite there being no definite or conclusive evidence.

    Ultimately, it is down to the Israeli's. If they do not want to explain a high death toll to the international community, then they should simply hold fire.

    Will you stop ignoring my questions? You've been ignoring this question for days now, trying to bring in any possible bull**** argument to stray from it.

    Why is Hamas not firing from empty fields but from civilian areas when it knows that logically this will lower the civilian count?

    Or are you saying that Hamas doesn't care about its civilians and they're at the mercy of how much importance Israel places on the opinion of the International community? I'd like to here your take on this.
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    (Original post by Suetonius)
    Where did I once state that I support Hamas?

    I'm not on any "side". That's childish playground nonsense. Clearly, you've picked yours. "Fight against terrorism" is a meaningless statement, given that you can't fight against a tactic.

    "They chose to harbour them in schools, UN hospitals and very densely populated areas". Can you support this assertion with a credible peer-reviewed academic source?

    An overwhelming amount of evidence illuminates who the aggressor is in this conflict.
    I have said on countless occasions and I will say it again on this thread, highlight the morally wrong actions of Hamas and I will happily admit to the faults of Israel in this conflict. Too often we have criticised Israel and on some instances rightly so but in no way should Hamas walk away clean as they too have blood on their hands. This whole thread has been one sided.

    Regarding the "Fight against terrorism" statement please do not be naive. It is a universally used statement to illustrate the global struggle against Islamic extremists. It has been used on the media, NGO and governmental stage. Pointing out stupid technicalities within my literacy is masking the real debate here.

    I assume you side with Israel because very few pro Palestinian supporters on here acknowledge the fact that most of the world and even Hamas themselves(how ironic) identify it as a terrorist organisation.

    Did you know not once have I asked for a source of information from you guys as I am old enough and able enough to search it for myself. However if you need me to find it for you and waste a portion of this day so be it but at least specify a legitimate source in your books, are we talking governmental data, NGO data, UN data, EU data...give me an idea because something tells me you are likely to disregard anything I post in an instance if it does not fit the criteria.
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    Notice how the terrorist-supporting BBC has not shown any Hamas terrorists or them in action fighting. Yet we get it all the time from Syria.

    Almost as if the BBC doesn't want to show the 'palestiniasn' fighting. Only Israel bombing.

    Reprehensible propaganda network.
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    (Original post by UniOfLife)
    *sigh*

    Apparently this concept is very hard for you to comprehend. The life expectancy of 1.5 million people will not dramatically change with the early death of 1,500 of them.

    I sense quite a bit of avoiding the point here. You are of course free to ignore any inconvenient fact you like. But the reality is that life expectancy in Gaza does not fit with a place of starving people. Infant mortality rates there do not fit with a place without basic medical supplies. If you think of Gaza in that way then these facts ought to give you cause to pause and reconsider. If you choose to ignore them or try and wave them away as obviously wrong (maybe a conspiracy!) then that is your prerogative. I prefer to debate with people who at least live in the same reality as I do and are prepared to accept facts when presented to them from reliable sources.
    Thank you for that huge block of information. I apologise for not reading past the first sentence but I already knew what you were going to say.

    I only have one simple statement:

    Life expectancy is measured according to the ages of people who have died, not those who are living.
 
 
 
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