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    [QUOTE=Scrappy-coco;60947839]
    (Original post by mil88)

    So historical evidence of infallible apostles? I don't think rules that apply logic and rationality can be said to show that Islam is the true religion. As many religions will have some of these

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    I never said those factors independently cause Islam to be the true religion, you inferred that. It's a result of many factors (including those).

    Can we actually discuss beliefs? Or are we going to sit on the surface with this discussion.
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    [QUOTE=mil88;60947943]
    (Original post by Scrappy-coco)

    I never said those factors independently cause Islam to be the true religion, you inferred that. It's a result of many factors (including those).

    Can we actually discuss beliefs? Or are we going to sit on the surface with this discussion.
    Well this is something I'm unclear about, can you correct me on it? In your next post just address it and then we can move on.

    So what factors would you outline as showing Islam to be true?

    And specifically can you outline how why a non muslim should believe that past Islamic apostles were infallible?

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    [QUOTE=Scrappy-coco;60948043]
    (Original post by mil88)

    Well this is something I'm unclear about, can you correct me on it? In your next post just address it and then we can move on.

    So what factors would you outline as showing Islam to be true?

    And specifically can you outline how why a non muslim should believe that past Islamic apostles were infallible?

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    So that we're on the same page, how would you define a apostle of God, and give some examples of Islamic apostles.
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    [QUOTE=mil88;60948101]
    (Original post by Scrappy-coco)

    So that we're on the same page, how would you define a apostle of God, and give some examples of Islamic apostles.
    You're free to define an Apostle of God, I'm just going from your point about infallible apostles.

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    (Original post by mil88)
    How can a religion be man made if it was created by God?
    LOL you just quoted me to ask this? Why am I even surprised. I feel for you, hun. Bye.
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    [QUOTE=Scrappy-coco;60948209]
    (Original post by mil88)

    You're free to define an Apostle of God, I'm just going from your point about infallible apostles.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Anyone that God has specifically chosen to spread the word of God. They are infallible, as it would be absurd for God to send someone to preach Goodness and the need to abstain from sin, when he (the apostle) himself sinned. (Hypocrisy)
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    [QUOTE=mil88;60950087]
    (Original post by Scrappy-coco)

    Anyone that God has specifically chosen to spread the word of God. They are infallible, as it would be absurd for God to send someone to preach Goodness and the need to abstain from sin, when he (the apostle) himself sinned. (Hypocrisy)
    OK so by definition a apostle of God is infallible?

    And my main question is; what does Islam claim to show that it is true? What would a muslim show to an atheist, Christian or Hindu to show Islam is true.

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    (Original post by Scrappy-coco)

    OK so by definition a apostle of God is infallible?

    And my main question is; what does Islam claim to show that it is true? What would a muslim show to an atheist, Christian or Hindu to show Islam is true.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    As a Hindu, I'm beyond help.

    inb4 polytheist, idolater and other stuff lol
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    [QUOTE=Scrappy-coco;60950231]
    (Original post by mil88)

    OK so by definition a apostle of God is infallible?

    And my main question is; what does Islam claim to show that it is true? What would a muslim show to an atheist, Christian or Hindu to show Islam is true.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Yes one of their attributes is infallibility.

    Quran, The best role models, logical rules, great emphasis on welfare of animals as well as humans etc The list goes on my friend. Can we now discuss actual beliefs..... it's more interesting.
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    (Original post by skunkboy)
    If you yourself have got supernatural powers, you still need God?
    God made us all. He didn't give us supernatural powers. We can ask him to do supernatural things on our behalf.

    I'd also point out that the reason Christians believe we need God is not simply because we have less power than he does. It's because we have all sinned, and so justly, deserve condemnation. Out of love, Jesus paid for us with his life, so we don't have to die, we can live.
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    (Original post by mil88)

    Respectfully, even the 4 main Gosples (mark, mathew, john and another one i cant remember) all differ with eachother on many issues. The bible has been changed (and even the Torah for that matter), mark mathew john are not even eye witnesses to the claims they all make. So I'm not sure how this is truth?
    I don't think you'll find a single contradiction in the gospels that can't be debated. I actually bet I could come up with a better case for contradictions in the bible than you could. Yet, I still believe none of it is contradictory.

    I'd also encourage you to read up on the historicity of the bible, and where the books come from. For example, the Dead Sea Scrolls are worth reading about.
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    (Original post by driftawaay)
    LOL you just quoted me to ask this? Why am I even surprised. I feel for you, hun. Bye.
    I think the argument is that you would have to show that it was not from God.
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    [QUOTE=mil88;60950523]
    (Original post by Scrappy-coco)

    Yes one of their attributes is infallibility.

    Quran, The best role models, logical rules, great emphasis on welfare of animals as well as humans etc The list goes on my friend. Can we now discuss actual beliefs..... it's more interesting.
    But none of this is reason to accept Islam as true? Buddhism emphasises welfare etc none of these are unique to Islam. And even if they were, they wold show Islam to be true. Let's say I agreed with everything Islam says about how to live, that doesn't show Allah to be real.

    This is why I'm talking about Islam's claim to truth - it's the core beliefs of Islam which prop it up. For example, if the Quran is found to be not perfect, what other reason is there to believe that Islam is true?

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    (Original post by Pride)
    I actually bet I could come up with a better case for contradictions in the bible than you could.
    I actually bet that you'll withdraw this bet with some excuse like, 'your heart and mind are closed' if he/she takes you up on it. Nice to see that you're still strong on the hyperbole. It must work wonders on your fellow churchgoers.
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    (Original post by Pride)
    I think the argument is that you would have to show that it was not from God.
    That is not a valid argument. Have you heard of the term burden of proof?
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    (Original post by driftawaay)
    That is not a valid argument. Have you heard of the term burden of proof?
    It's for atheists to prove GOD does not exist. You have to explain how the world came into being in the first place and is finely tuned because matter does not create itself.
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    (Original post by slade p)
    It's for atheists to prove GOD does not exist. You have to explain how the world came into being in the first place and is finely tuned because matter does not create itself.
    That makes no sense at all. I expect there are loads of gods people who do believe in a god don't believe in (Zeus, Loki etc) - are you expecting them to prove they don't exist? (not to mention pink unicorns, minotaurs and centaurs) It's impossible to prove the non-existence of anything, but eventually the lack of evidence becomes pretty compelling.
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    (Original post by driftawaay)
    That is not a valid argument. Have you heard of the term burden of proof?
    but that's not really my point. You made the statement that it was man-made. You have the burden of proof.

    I don't believe the Qu'ran to be completely true (particularly where Jesus is concerned, and all the other things that contradict the bible), but I have some arguments for that view, which I would offer if I wanted to make the point that it was man-made. You on the other hand say it's man-made, and leave it at that. As if to say, 'duh, can't you see the Qu'ran is man-made...?' which does not really offer anything of worth. It's basically your word against theirs, with no attempt to offer some reasoning or evidence to support your view.

    (Original post by Hydeman)
    I actually bet that you'll withdraw this bet with some excuse like, 'your heart and mind are closed' if he/she takes you up on it. Nice to see that you're still strong on the hyperbole. It must work wonders on your fellow churchgoers.
    I always feel like you want to antagonise me. I have made mistakes in the past when discussing things with you. I believe what I've said to be true. But I think I have been overtly bold when addressing you - nobody likes arrogance. And I'm sure you have perceived it in me. So, I'm working on that. I believe the bible to be true, so perhaps some people will always think I am arrogant, regardless of what I say. But I think it's good to be gentle, as 2 Timothy 2:24-26 discusses. Again I say, I have made mistakes.

    Anyway, yes. Atheists tend to come up with weak examples of apparent contradictions. I think I could come up with better ones. I would also point out that you assume that you would be able to perceive what is true if I were to make a point to you. The bible disagrees.
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    (Original post by Pride)
    but that's not really my point. You made the statement that it was man-made. You have the burden of proof.

    I don't believe the Qu'ran to be completely true (particularly where Jesus is concerned, and all the other things that contradict the bible), but I have some arguments for that view, which I would offer if I wanted to make the point that it was man-made. You on the other hand say it's man-made, and leave it at that. As if to say, 'duh, can't you see the Qu'ran is man-made...?' which does not really offer anything of worth. It's basically your word against theirs, with no attempt to offer some reasoning or evidence to support your view.
    Haha, he didn't want to hear my 'reason' or 'evidence' to support my view, religious nuts don't care about reason and evidence, that would be an oxymoron. Which is ideal since I don't try to reason or provide religious people with evidence. I only argue with people that seem worthwhile.
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    (Original post by Compost)
    That makes no sense at all. I expect there are loads of gods people who do believe in a god don't believe in (Zeus, Loki etc) - are you expecting them to prove they don't exist? (not to mention pink unicorns, minotaurs and centaurs) It's impossible to prove the non-existence of anything, but eventually the lack of evidence becomes pretty compelling.
    You can prove a negative. You can show that David Cameron is not a girl for example. You can show that the US does not have a population of 100 people. You can show that a 10 foot unicorn statue does not exist on the steps of 10 Downey Street.

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