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64% of TSR want to remain in the EU... share your vote watch

  • View Poll Results: How will you be voting in the EU referendum?
    Remain
    2,378
    56.27%
    Leave
    1,024
    24.23%
    Don't know yet
    278
    6.58%
    Won't be voting
    546
    12.92%

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    (Original post by EmmaRoseJones)
    May I add that you've basically said that it would be good for the economy slide down into dispair for the thought of your local shop selling cheap bread. Do you think that is more valuable than affordable mortgages? It's estimated the average mortgage will rise by £900 a month! I love supporting local, independent businesses however we live in a world of globalisation where large companies are essential for the income of many.

    Why the EU is great:
    Free trade with a say on the EU trade laws
    EU encourages investment
    Police coordination - European arrant warrant.
    Influence in and out of Europe
    Immigration and emigration - good thing!
    EU safeguards
    Education and scientific funding
    That's total rubbish. Do you know that google paid the same tax one year as one person on 20+grand a year? The tax frevnue thing is nonsense, even if they paid a resonable rate, they wouldn''t contribute more, smaller business would pay more given the same share of the market-corporate monopoly doesn't benefit anyone, apart from parties that get donations, and the corporations themselves. They are actually more inclined to pay low wages, and again polticians like this. To say that there'd be no jobs without them is rubbish, that's because smaller domestic business and competition(what capitalism is supposed to be) has been squeezed out by corporate monopoly aided by governments. They would create different jobs.

    We don't have free trade, they can't even make trade deals with China and India for god's sake, we were so much better historically, it's what we're good at. We can't trade with Africa either, bad for their prosperity and ours. Because the EU is protectionist, you can't get the better products at cheaper prices from other parts of the world, so you are paying more for food. They are anti-competitive and protectionist, so you pay more in favour of European goods, you also have to accept free movement and unaccountable layers of power making decisions you have zero say in. They are the reason a curry house has to prioritize a chef from Poland over one from India who speaks English. No-one else is facing these trade conditions, not Japan, Australia, NZ , Canada. We have it so woefully worse than the anglosphere, and our former colonies, we are tying ourselves to the least competitive and most protectionist block in the world, to not ostensible benefit. As for migration, we are richer, which all goes to the top of our society, the fact we are richer means migrants from poor countries, wage compression, undercutting our own people and creating poverty and destitution at the bottom rung, which will only create more social problems.
    I don't understand the point about mortgages at all, I don't believe it for a second, it just sounds like the most cynical crap that Osbourne and Cameron come out with. How is flooding our labour market with people and creating so much poverty and low wages, where we need to build so many houses, where so many people can't afford them. good for house prices or accessibility? It doesn't make sense.
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    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    It's important for corporations and powerful people. And so what about large companies, I'd rather have healthy competitive economy full of smaller domestic businesses, not red tape that stymies entrepreneurs in this country while serving the interests of corporate monopolies. It's not just the economic side, it's the political side. Vote remain if you want, but know that is far from the beacon of progressivism so self-servingly espoused by our elites. It serves unaccountable, power crazed, political classes, and corporate monopolies, creates wage compression and makes the labour market lower down impossible and society crueller. Imagine the future common anti-terror policies, if you think that is unnaccountable and authoritarian. It will simply be a stifling autocrats wet dream.
    Please don't be willing to belief all this wisdom or evidence is so objective, it's heavily politicised and espoused by the powerful who think they know best for everyone. Those fear tactics are just odious and should not be rewarded.
    I always find it interetsing to see that brexiters want to portray this as a war against 'elites'. Who do the Leavers think Gove and Farage and Johnson are, if not the elite?

    This is not a logical debate about Europe, but a defacto election being fought out amongst elites. And the 'elite' that will be left after a Brexit will be an extreme form of that the vast majority of voters in this country would never have voted for in a general election
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    (Original post by Stressed dad)
    I always find it interetsing to see that brexiters want to portray this as a war against 'elites'. Who do the Leavers think Gove and Farage and Johnson are, if not the elite?

    This is not a logical debate about Europe, but a defacto election being fought out amongst elites. And the 'elite' that will be left after a Brexit will be an extreme form of that the vast majority of voters in this country would never have voted for in a general election
    An extreme form of what they voted for in the election and would never elect? They elected them last year, and 5 years ago, and actually for most of the last century.

    I always find it interesting how remain are spending so long now attacking the brexiteers now they're losing, not to mention how they were never able to be positive about the EU.

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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    An extreme form of what they voted for in the election and would never elect? They elected them last year, and 5 years ago, and actually for most of the last century.

    I always find it interesting how remain are spending so long now attacking the brexiteers now they're losing, not to mention how they were never able to be positive about the EU.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    I was simply exploring your comments on the remainers as being 'elites'. Its not one way traffic if the Leave campaign seek to create divisions to polarise people through their rhetoric
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    Well to be honest I'm not taking the TSR vote too seriously because I can imagine a fair few people under age have voted too.

    I'm 18 and will be voting remain. To me, theres not much in it - but i don't like how the out campaign targeted immigration and didn't really talk about anything else (until recently)
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    (Original post by nobodycarescarla)
    Well to be honest I'm not taking the TSR vote too seriously because I can imagine a fair few people under age have voted too.

    I'm 18 and will be voting remain. To me, theres not much in it - but i don't like how the out campaign targeted immigration and didn't really talk about anything else (until recently)
    The Vote out campaign doesnt just target immigration. This isnt just about immigration, its about having control of our own laws, our money and reaching our potential as a country instead of falling into a dictatorship. The EU builds expensive high tec buildings which they rarely use. Theres many reasons on why we should Leave.

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    (Original post by Stressed dad)
    I always find it interetsing to see that brexiters want to portray this as a war against 'elites'. Who do the Leavers think Gove and Farage and Johnson are, if not the elite?

    This is not a logical debate about Europe, but a defacto election being fought out amongst elites. And the 'elite' that will be left after a Brexit will be an extreme form of that the vast majority of voters in this country would never have voted for in a general election
    Elites? Banks, corporations, securocrats, intelligence, the US and their defence, stuff like that.
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    (Original post by Stressed dad)
    I was simply exploring your comments on the remainers as being 'elites'. Its not one way traffic if the Leave campaign seek to create divisions to polarise people through their rhetoric
    Which comments of mine, exactly?

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    we should remain to prevent war? yeah not scaremongering at all.
    i pressume people think Germany will start ww3 if so then why are we even in a union with such a temperamental country ?
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    (Original post by Cubcub99)
    we should remain to prevent war? yeah not scaremongering at all.
    i pressume people think Germany will start ww3 if so then why are we even in a union with such a temperamental country ?
    It isn't scaremongering to suggest caution when considering whether to leave an organisation set up to promote togetherness in the aftermath of 2 major global conflicts originating from Europe. The idea is that when we are tied together in a tangible way we are more likely to find solutions together instead of becoming isolationists.

    No reasonable Remainer is saying that if we leave it will cause WW3. Most are saying that if we leave then the potential for future conflicts is increased, whether originating within the current EU countries or outwith.
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    (Original post by offhegoes)
    It isn't scaremongering to suggest caution when considering whether to leave an organisation set up to promote togetherness in the aftermath of 2 major global conflicts originating from Europe. The idea is that when we are tied together in a tangible way we are more likely to find solutions together instead of becoming isolationists.

    No reasonable Remainer is saying that if we leave it will cause WW3. Most are saying that if we leave then the potential for future conflicts is increased, whether originating within the current EU countries or outwith.
    Even that argument is absurd, the EU are kinda bad at preventing conflicts

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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Even that argument is absurd, the EU are kinda bad at preventing conflicts

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    Just because you disagree with it doesn't make it absurd.
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    (Original post by offhegoes)
    Just because you disagree with it doesn't make it absurd.
    "The EU stay in campaign say the EU has kept peace in Europe for 70 years with no wars... Erm

    No Wars in Europe the last 70 years?

    1949 Greek Civil War
    1953 Uprising in East Germany
    1956 Uprising in Poznań
    1956 Hungarian Revolution
    1956–1962 Operation Harvest
    1958 Opération Corse
    1958 First Cod War
    1959–2011 Basque conflict
    1968 Warsaw Pact invasion of Czechoslovakia
    1968–1998 The Troubles
    1970–1984 Unrest in Italy
    1972 Bugojno group
    1972–1973 Second Cod War
    1974 Turkish invasion of Cyprus
    1975–1976 Third Cod War
    1988–1994 Nagorno-Karabakh War
    1989 Romanian Revolution
    1990–1991 Soviet attacks on Lithuanian border posts
    1991 January Events
    1991 The Barricades
    1991 Ten-Day War (Slovenia)
    1991–1992 Georgian war against Russo-Ossetian alliance
    1991–1993 Georgian Civil War
    1991–1995 Croatian War of Independence
    1992 Transnistria War
    1992 East Prigorodny Conflict
    1992–1993 First Georgian war against Russo-Abkhazian alliance
    1992–1995 Bosnian War
    1993 Cherbourg incident
    1993 Russian constitutional crisis
    1994–1996 First Chechen War
    1997 Albanian civil war of 1997
    1998–1999 Kosovo War
    1998–present Dissident Irish Republican campaign
    1998 Second Georgian war against Russian-Abkhazian alliance
    1999 War of Dagestan
    1999–2009 Second Chechen War

    Great job EU 👍🏻"

    But why not look at just one, Bosnia, where the EU were supposed to be sorting everything out and well, they ended up having to basically say "NATO, UNSC, please sort this out for us"

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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    "The EU stay in campaign say the EU has kept peace in Europe for 70 years with no wars... Erm

    No Wars in Europe the last 70 years?

    1949 Greek Civil War
    1953 Uprising in East Germany
    1956 Uprising in Poznań
    1956 Hungarian Revolution
    1956–1962 Operation Harvest
    1958 Opération Corse
    1958 First Cod War
    1959–2011 Basque conflict
    1968 Warsaw Pact invasion of Czechoslovakia
    1968–1998 The Troubles
    1970–1984 Unrest in Italy
    1972 Bugojno group
    1972–1973 Second Cod War
    1974 Turkish invasion of Cyprus
    1975–1976 Third Cod War
    1988–1994 Nagorno-Karabakh War
    1989 Romanian Revolution
    1990–1991 Soviet attacks on Lithuanian border posts
    1991 January Events
    1991 The Barricades
    1991 Ten-Day War (Slovenia)
    1991–1992 Georgian war against Russo-Ossetian alliance
    1991–1993 Georgian Civil War
    1991–1995 Croatian War of Independence
    1992 Transnistria War
    1992 East Prigorodny Conflict
    1992–1993 First Georgian war against Russo-Abkhazian alliance
    1992–1995 Bosnian War
    1993 Cherbourg incident
    1993 Russian constitutional crisis
    1994–1996 First Chechen War
    1997 Albanian civil war of 1997
    1998–1999 Kosovo War
    1998–present Dissident Irish Republican campaign
    1998 Second Georgian war against Russian-Abkhazian alliance
    1999 War of Dagestan
    1999–2009 Second Chechen War

    Great job EU 👍🏻"

    But why not look at just one, Bosnia, where the EU were supposed to be sorting everything out and well, they ended up having to basically say "NATO, UNSC, please sort this out for us"

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    "I shall also add to the previous point on there not having been any real wars between major states for 70 years, that it is an absolutely unprecedented period of such peace, with most similar peace times collapsing after a few decades, even when there have been major treaties put into place to try to prevent it."

    That quote I'm sure you will recognise as your own.

    So you feel clearly feel able to describe the past 70 years as one of unprecedented peace to support your views on nuclear weapons, but when it comes to describing the past 70 years for a discussion on the EU it suddenly becomes absolute carnage?
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    (Original post by offhegoes)
    "I shall also add to the previous point on there not having been any real wars between major states for 70 years, that it is an absolutely unprecedented period of such peace, with most similar peace times collapsing after a few decades, even when there have been major treaties put into place to try to prevent it."

    That quote I'm sure you will recognise as your own.

    So you feel clearly feel able to describe the past 70 years as one of unprecedented peace to support your views on nuclear weapons, but when it comes to describing the past 70 years for a discussion on the EU it suddenly becomes absolute carnage?
    If you want to quote it use the quote function.

    If the EU is such a great arbiter of peace then surely it should be dealing with domestic and low level regional conflict, the scales where interdependence and high level deterrence don't work, something it has demonstrated incapable of.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    If you want to quote it use the quote function.
    Oh, like putting things in, er, quote marks.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
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    (Original post by jneill)
    Oh, like putting things in, er, quote marks.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    "I think we should vote leave and take back control"

    you should recognise that quote, you said it yourself. The thing about the quoting function is that it allows it to be verified, I do not recall every using those words, maybe words along a similar line but not those words, certainly not for quite some time.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    If you want to quote it use the quote function.
    I'm unable to use the quote function given the forum in which you made that post. But here's the link:

    http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/show...5&postcount=51

    If the EU is such a great arbiter of peace then surely it should be dealing with domestic and low level regional conflict, the scales where interdependence and high level deterrence don't work, something it has demonstrated incapable of.
    The EU was set up to help secure lasting peace between those countries in the EU. Some of those conflicts could hardly be called domestic could they?
    Compare the conflicts between EU countries since the birth of the EU/EEC and the conflicts between those same countries in the equivalent period of time prior to that. Not a bad record.

    You can huff and puff all you like about how the EU hasn't managed to eradicate conflict in countries outwith the EU and therefore has done nothing for peace, but that is simply your opinion, and one which I disagree with.
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    (Original post by offhegoes)
    I'm unable to use the quote function given the forum in which you made that post. But here's the link:

    http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/show...5&postcount=51



    The EU was set up to help secure lasting peace between those countries in the EU. Some of those conflicts could hardly be called domestic could they?
    Compare the conflicts between EU countries since the birth of the EU/EEC and the conflicts between those same countries in the equivalent period of time prior to that. Not a bad record.

    You can huff and puff all you like about how the EU hasn't managed to eradicate conflict in countries outwith the EU and therefore has done nothing for peace, but that is simply your opinion, and one which I disagree with.
    With a MILITARY alliance covering most of western Europe, a greater level of interdependency between states, even with the EU aside, the threat of nuclear war among those who are not part of the alliance and pose a threat of substantial conflict, we are in a Europe of democracies rather than dictatorships, and a global trend of less conflict in per state terms, per capita terms, casualties, casualties per capita, etc. As far as I know the only metric in which there has been an increase is absolute number, which is expected when there are nearly twice as many states.

    It's not just Europe that is seeing greater peace and prosperity. Switzerland is not in the EU, it's not been at war for nearly 2 centuries; no post war conflict in South America by the standards of "the EU ensures peace" bar the odd border skirmish, nor has there been war in North America for well over a century, bar a bit of attempted balloon bombing in WWII.

    Where have the post war conflicts been? Where there are despots and dictators mostly.

    And while they are not all domestic on that list, a very significant proportion are and the other half still fit into the very low level regional category.

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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    With a MILITARY alliance covering most of western Europe, a greater level of interdependency between states, even with the EU aside, the threat of nuclear war among those who are not part of the alliance and pose a threat of substantial conflict, we are in a Europe of democracies rather than dictatorships, and a global trend of less conflict in per state terms, per capita terms, casualties, casualties per capita, etc. As far as I know the only metric in which there has been an increase is absolute number, which is expected when there are nearly twice as many states.

    It's not just Europe that is seeing greater peace and prosperity. Switzerland is not in the EU, it's not been at war for nearly 2 centuries; no post war conflict in South America by the standards of "the EU ensures peace" bar the odd border skirmish, nor has there been war in North America for well over a century, bar a bit of attempted balloon bombing in WWII.

    Where have the post war conflicts been? Where there are despots and dictators mostly.

    And while they are not all domestic on that list, a very significant proportion are and the other half still fit into the very low level regional category.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    So then it would perhaps be misleading to imply that the current relative peace is just because a few countries have nuclear weapons?
 
 
 
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