D&D Religion's "Ask About Sikhism" Thread Watch

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(Original post by Suave)
I have yet to see any differences in teachings/philosophy/beliefs
are there any online resources which have an english translation of the vedas or other hindu scriptures? if so, id appreciate it if you would provide a link. thank you.
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Suave
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If you want to understand Vedanta/Hindu beliefs/philosophy, then you need to read the Upanishads, which are the philosophical treatise of the Vedas. You can read 108 of them at http://www.celextel.org/108upanishads/ . A word of warning though, they can be very complex and it is said that each line of the Vedas can contain upto 5 layers of depth of meaning so don't be surprised if you don't fully grasp everything at one go.

The site I have given you gives other Vedanta related information, such as the Bhagavad Gita, which is like a summary of the Vedas so you may wish to read that rather than the actual Upanishads.
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ReLimp
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(Original post by Suave)
If you want to understand Vedanta/Hindu beliefs/philosophy, then you need to read the Upanishads, which are the philosophical treatise of the Vedas. You can read 108 of them at http://www.celextel.org/108upanishads/ . A word of warning though, they can be very complex and it is said that each line of the Vedas can contain upto 5 layers of depth of meaning so don't be surprised if you don't fully grasp everything at one go.

The site I have given you gives other Vedanta related information, such as the Bhagavad Gita, which is like a summary of the Vedas so you may wish to read that rather than the actual Upanishads.
Sounds like a way of fitting as many interpretations as possible to the text. Not that I'm suggesting Hindu's constantly choose elements of their texts which aid their arguement and discard others which may not... honestly I'm not. :p:
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Suave
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(Original post by ReLimp)
Sounds like a way of fitting as many interpretations as possible to the text. Not that I'm suggesting Hindu's constantly choose elements of their texts which aid their arguement and discard others which may not... honestly I'm not. :p:
The meanings don't contradict each other, rather, they add more substance. In the same vein you learn more about the same subject the further you progress in school/further education...it doesn't mean you are learning different interpretations, you are learning more about the subject (in this case, Vedanta).
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med_lion
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Nice link..i will read through some of it and i will tell you what we disagree with. But dude, i am pretty sure that Hinduism believes in more than 1 God. Maybe im wrong. There must be a reason why you ask to see differences in philosophy/teachings. I will look into Vedenta and see what i can come up with....obviously now i can look at Vedas philosophy and maybe compare with Sikhism philosophy.
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Suave
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No med_lion, we believe in one god but you may call god and worship It in as many forms as you wish. That's perhaps where you're confused.
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med_lion
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Yeah Suave, i was doing some reading into Hinduism and yeah i got it wrong..You believe in One God. However, God is formless and so you cannot possibly "worship" devtas. Well thats what Sikhism states.

Also, to make things little easier to answer your question, it will be very greatful if you could post a link or even list here the MAIN teachings of the Vedas. That way we can see what Sikhism disagrees with. Else answering your question would take ages as i have not the Vedas/Gita etc.. nice one.
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(Original post by Suave)
If you want to understand Vedanta/Hindu beliefs/philosophy, then you need to read the Upanishads, which are the philosophical treatise of the Vedas. You can read 108 of them at http://www.celextel.org/108upanishads/ . A word of warning though, they can be very complex and it is said that each line of the Vedas can contain upto 5 layers of depth of meaning so don't be surprised if you don't fully grasp everything at one go.
wasn't planning on reading them just wanted to check some references in a couple of articles. but thanks.
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Suave
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(Original post by med_lion)
Yeah Suave, i was doing some reading into Hinduism and yeah i got it wrong..You believe in One God. However, God is formless and so you cannot possibly "worship" devtas. Well thats what Sikhism states.
Worshipping devatas isn't a doctrine in Vedanta though. It's a technique, and there are those who don't worship ishta devatas who are Hindus. Worshipping idols/images is not obligatory in Hinduism, it is only one of the four yogas (i.e. Bhakti).

Also, to make things little easier to answer your question, it will be very greatful if you could post a link or even list here the MAIN teachings of the Vedas. That way we can see what Sikhism disagrees with. Else answering your question would take ages as i have not the Vedas/Gita etc.. nice one.
Erm, I don't really know a site that lists the main teachings. Maybe Google Vedanta and see what you get? Some sites probably have innacurate information though so best to corroborate what you find.
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USingh
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(Original post by med_lion)
..the reason there is Hinduism today is because the 9th Sikh Guru gave His head for YOUR religion. If it wasn't for His sacrifice then there would only have been Islam and Sikhism today "without" Hinduism... :eek:
Very true. What's quite sickening to be honest is the way in which hindu extremist groups are selfishly using Guru Sahib's great sacrifice as a tool to further their agenda, absolutely disgusting.
I remember once reading Swami Vivekananda telling hindus that everyone of them must become like Guru Gobind Singh Ji, funny how they plan to do that without following his teachings and by calling the method which Guru Sahib told us will allow for this as 'superficial' and only a minor and meaningless factor when comparing Sikhi and hinduisim. Oh well.:rolleyes:

So the point you are trying to make is that Hindusism = Sikhism
Don't be surprised lol, the points being made are highly reminiscent of Hindutva(hindu nationalism) ideology. 'Hindi Hindu, Hindustan' is the aim, to be acheived my assimilating Sikhs and eradicating Muslims and Christians from India. Extremely disturbing.
Here are some vids about the actions of those conforming to this ideology:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZEQYktSzKM Bad stuff.

Anyway

(Original post by Suave)
You say you "reject" the Vedas, but there is a reason correct? You don't reject the Vedas for no reason right? If you reject them for no reason then the act of rejecting them means nothing.
Stop babbling. Your mindset is more like if "I don't understand why the Vedas are rejected it means nothing". The Gurbani lines are quite clear that that the Vedas are rejected by Gurmat, says it right here "The Vedas and the Scriptures are only make-believe, O Siblings of Destiny; they do not relieve the anxiety of the heart.". Sure, you are asking what is it in the Vedas that we call 'make-believe', but the way you are going about it is that if you have not understood where Sikhi differs from Vedanta there is no difference. The first step is accepting that we do not accept their authority and that they are not from God, you keep saying that there is no difference but in reality you just don't know the difference. All Gurbani lines regarding the Vedas make this clear and do make the statement that Gurmat(Sikhi) and Vedanta are different. If you choose not to believe this statement just because you do not understand Sikhi, you are either stating that 1) Gurbani is lying in making this statement, in which case I have no time to debate with you. Or 2) Guru Sahib is mistaken and does not understand the Vedas, however you are still making the claim that Gurmat and Vedanta are the same :eek:. For someone who could believe something so far fetched I have no time either.
Simply not getting an answer here that convinces you does not mean you can go about saying there is no difference when Gurbani has stated there is, in this case if you do care to learn and do not feel that anyone here is providing you with satisfactory answers (due to lack of knowledge on Vedanta which I will put my hand up and admit) then Gurbani is there waiting for you to teach you that.

No, I don't need an explanation of "the whole religion" nor do I need to "read the Gurbani".
You are on "Ask a Sikh" to learn about Sikhism are you not? If you feel that Sikhs are not the best people to ask questions about Sikhism then I suggest that this is not the place for you. I answered your question and stated that our whole philosophy is different. If you wish to learn Sikh philosophy you can find it in Gurbani (no, 'the' before it). If you wish to disagree its not my problem.

Not difficult, it's a clear and simple list. I don't need to read the Quran to know that, nor is it explaining the "whole religion". Now if no one here can provide a simple and clear list about what it is that they disagree with from the Vedas
As requested by others you could not even provide a list explaining your OWN philosophy yet you wish for a comparative list from myself, taking advantage of the fact that you can simply use the "you don't understand Vedanta" line.

then it's pretty clear what is going on here...
I don't think it is, why don't you tell us what exactly is going on here?

And yes, what med_lion has quoted is in line with Vedic philosophy. It's evident that you don't understand Vedanta and this is the problem here.
You can not just say I don't understand Vedanta when you just don't like what I have said. Can you show me where exactly I said anything regarding Vedanta that warrants you to say that I do not understand it? In fact I was simply recalling the point you made to me regarding Vedanta sometime earlier on, are you saying you yourself do not understand Vedanta?
Lets see what it was that you said:
"...to me that's just saying that Holy Scriptures always come second to experiencing God, singing and praising God comes above scriptures. That is also what Sanatana Dharma teaches..."
Now I know what Gurbani is saying, and know for sure that I understand it better than you and I most certainly do not need to understand Vedanta to interpret Gurbani. I can tell you that Gurbani does not teach the idea that "holy scriptures always come second to experiencing God, etc.",in regards to the Vedas.
So if the Gurbani quotes med_lion gave say not to read the vedas for that reason, then what reason do they say it for:
"The Vedas and the Scriptures are only make-believe, O Siblings of Destiny; they do not relieve the anxiety of the heart."
Does Vedanta call the Vedas "make-believe"? If so then yes, the Gurbani quotes given by med are indeed in line with Vedanta, if not, then I am afraid that you do not understand Gurbani.

"Sikhi says its because we don't believe in what they say"...well tell me exactly what it is you don't believe in? This is what I am asking from day one. Reincarnation? No...karma?
No one is denying a belief in Reincarnation and Karma, so there is really no point bringing it up once more. Though as you have brought it up seeing as you are a man who is so interested in religions then i suggest you a book called "Gurmat Karam Philosophy" by Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh, in which the differences between veda's karam philosophy and Guru Ji's karam philosophy have been expalained. I have not read the book myself though it is on my list and I have been told by others it is quite good. One of the main themes is the difference in the categorisation of Karams, where Gurmat differs from the three/four (I have been told both numbers by hindus on this)types of Karams explained by the Vedas.

No...belief in one God?
Very easy point to make. Just about any religion could pull this one off. What matters and what results in so many different religions is the nature of this God, what he is like, what pleases him, what his command is, etc.

No...devotion
Something can only be called it's name when it fulfills its purpose. The purpose of devotion (in Sikhi anyway) is to please God. Therefore that which doesn't please God is not fullfilling it's purpose and so is notdevotion, but just devotion in name. For example the term 'Halal'(permissible) has also been used in Sikh terminology to describe certain actions. In Islam, slaughtering an animal under certain conditions is also 'halal', however in Sikhi this action certainly isn't halal.
Devotion i.e. bhagti/bhakti is certainly something referred to in both Vedanta and Gurmat, but what is bhagti- the act which pleases God? This is where you do not understand Gurmat.

and reciting God's name as much as you can? No.
Actually, yes. "Everyone chants the Lord's Name, Raam, Raam; but by such chanting, the Lord is not obtained."
-491. I don't mean this in an offensive way at all but I really don't think you know Gurmat so well.
So let's see it, what is it that you don't believe which the Vedas do say you should believe in?
You have mentioned that there are four yogs, four methods to God. In Sikhi, there is only one, Gurmat, that is one difference for you.

Personally got no more need to say anything more on this topic.
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Suave
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Lol, you're beginning to resemble a joke you know that? You have no idea what the HSS is and you brandish the term "extremist" around for fun lol. HSS is a registered charity, and that clip you posted means nothing after this: http://www.sewainternational.com/dow...SS_RELEASE.pdf

Now, do as you said originally before and please refrain from debating with me as you clearly are unable to put forward true statements in a calm state of mind. At least med_lion acknowledges that he is willing to research and learn more than spouting a heap of nonsense.
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med_lion
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Well said USingh...

Suave, as i have mentioned before, if it is possible for you to post here maybe a brief list of Vedanta philosophy, then maybe you will get your list of differences.
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Suave
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Okay, there is one God, It is formless, we are all the soul and not the body, after we die we are reincarnated, our lives are shaped by the law of karma, the aim is to realise God and not just to read scripture, we are all unaware of the truth due to maya, God is all compassionate and omnipresent...that's as brief as I can get really.
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CHAMON
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Suave there is a Hinduism thread for you to shed light on that, you're hijacking a Sikh thread. :rolleyes:
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Suave
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But he asked me here, it makes more sense. Chamon man!
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USingh
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(Original post by Suave)
Lol, you're beginning to resemble a joke you know that? You have no idea what the HSS is and you brandish the term "extremist" around for fun lol. HSS is a registered charity, and that clip you posted means nothing after this: http://www.sewainternational.com/dow...SS_RELEASE.pdf
I was infact talking about Hindutva as a whole, I don't believe I mentioned HSS in my post, just gave a link showing actions of those following the Hindutva ideology. And I can tell you one thing, I most certainly am not alone in my views in regards to this. That's all I have to say on those nut jobs.

Now, do as you said originally before and please refrain from debating with me as you clearly are unable to put forward true statements in a calm state of mind.
Young man, I shall post as I see fit. Though, perhaps before replying to someone you could at least take time out to read their post, "Personally got no more need to say anything more on this topic". And a tip to you, if you do not appreciate my replies you are not exactly making it clear if you are giving me replies telling me you appreciate my response
Anyway it is not as if I raised those points in response to any of your posts, they were in fact directed towards med_lion, and the truth is that the arguments you are making are identical to those made by those subscribing to Hindutva, whether you like it or not.
I don't see how any response I made to you was in anyway untrue or could suggest that I lacked a "calm state of mind".

At least med_lion acknowledges that he is willing to research and learn more than spouting a heap of nonsense.
Ah, the hypocrisy of this statement.

Anyway perhaps you should re-read my post before talking nonsense yourself.
"...lack of knowledge on Vedanta which I will put my hand up and admit",
I also reiterated med_lions request for a list on Vedanta which you simply had been unable to provide. Rather than believing everybody around you knows nothing, how about shutting up for a second and trying to take in what someone else is saying? Though, I realise by now that this is a futile request.

You and the Hindutva loons are simply wasting time if you think there is ever a chance that Sikhism will be swallowed by Hinduism. That's a futile cause for sure.

I wonder what the sad reply to this will be :rolleyes:
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Suave
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I will take the bait

(Original post by USingh)
I was infact talking about Hindutva as a whole, I don't believe I mentioned HSS in my post, just gave a link showing actions of those following the Hindutva ideology. And I can tell you one thing, I most certainly am not alone in my views in regards to this. That's all I have to say on those nut jobs.
The link you provided was a shakha, aka an HSS workshop. Do you always provide links to things you don't know about?


Young man, I shall post as I see fit. Though, perhaps before replying to someone you could at least take time out to read their post, "Personally got no more need to say anything more on this topic". And a tip to you, if you do not appreciate my replies you are not exactly making it clear if you are giving me replies telling me you appreciate my response
I did appreciate your responses. Note the word "did", it refers to past tense

Anyway it is not as if I raised those points in response to any of your posts, they were in fact directed towards med_lion, and the truth is that the arguments you are making are identical to those made by those subscribing to Hindutva, whether you like it or not.
What's your point? There's nothing wrong with Hindutva is there? The Supreme Court of India itself said "These Constitution Bench decisions, after a detailed discussion, indicate that no precise meaning can be ascribed to the terms Hindu, Hindutva and Hinduism; and no meaning in the abstract can confine it to the narrow limits of religion alone, excluding the content of Indian culture and heritage. It is also indicated that the term Hindutva is related more to the way of life of the people in the subcontinent. It is difficult to appreciate how in the face of these decisions,the term Hindutva or Hinduism per se, in the abstract, can be assumed to mean and be equated with narrow fundamentalist Hindu religious bigotry, or be construed to fall within the prohibition in sub-section (3) and/or (3A) of Section 123 of the R.P. Act...Ordinarily, Hindutva is understood as a way of life or a state of mind and it is not to be equated with. or understood as religious Hindu fundamentalism.

Thus, it cannot be doubted, particularly in view of the Constitution Bench decisions of this Court that the words Hinduism or Hindutva are not necessarily to be understood and construed narrowly,confined only to the strict Hindu religious practices unrelated to the culture and ethos of the people of India. depicting the way of life of the Indian people. Unless the context of a speech indicates a contrary meaning or use, in the abstract these terms are indicative more of a way of life of the Indian people and are not confined merely to describe persons practising the Hindu religion as a faith.

Considering the terms Hinduism or Hindutva per se as depicting hostility, enmity or intolerance towards other religious faiths or professing communalism, proceeds from an improper appreciation and perception of the true meaning of these expressions emerging from detailed discussion in earlier authorities of this Court. Misuse of these expressions to promote communalism cannot alter the true meaning of these terms. The mischief resulting from the misuse of the terms by anyone in his speech has to be checked and not its permissible use. It is indeed very unfortunate, if in spite of the liberal and tolerant features of Hinduism recognised in judicial decisions, these terms are misused by anyone during the elections to gain any unfair political advantage. Fundamentalism of any colour or kind must be curbed with a heavy hand to preserve and promote the secular creed of the nation. Any misuse of these terms must, therefore, be dealt with strictly.

It is, therefore, a fallacy and an error of law to proceed on the assumption that any reference to Hindutva or Hinduism in a speech makes it automatically a speech based on the Hindu religion as opposed to the other religions or that the use of words Hindutva or Hinduism per se depicts an attitude hostile to all persons practising any religion other than the Hindu religion. It is the kind of use made of these words and the meaning sought to be conveyed in the speech which has to be seen and unless such a construction leads to the conclusion that these words were used to appeal for votes for a Hindu candidate on the ground that he is a Hindu or not to vote for a candidate because he is not a Hindu, the mere fact that these words are used in the speech would not bring it within the prohibition of sub-section (3) or (3A) of Section 123. It may well be that these words are used in a speech to promote secularism or to emphasise the way of life of the Indian people and the Indian culture or ethos, or to criticise the policy of any political party as discriminatory or intolerant. The parliamentary debates, including the clarifications made by the Law Minister quoted earlier, also bring out this difference between the prohibited and permissible speech in this context. Whether a particular speech in which reference is made to Hindutva and/or Hinduism falls within the prohibition under sub-section (3) or (3A) of Section 123 is, therefore, a question of fact in each case."

Supreme Court of India Judgment

Lovely to read no?


I don't see how any response I made to you was in anyway untrue or could suggest that I lacked a "calm state of mind".
Quotes by the right honourable gentleman whom I am discussing with presently:

"I can see RSS/HSS has already done its damage" <- Naivety of HSS and unfounded assertion 'damage' used

"Stop babbling" <- Indicative of one who has lost his cool

Both phrases used by you emerge from intense emotion which means you aren't possessing a calm mind and unable to debate maturely without unfounded assertions.

Ah, the hypocracy of this statement.

Anyway perhaps you should re-read my post before talking nonsense yourself.
"...lack of knowledge on Vedanta which I will put my hand up and admit",
I also reiterated med_lions request for a list on Vedanta which you simply had been unable to provide.
I've provided it now. Perhaps you would like to glance over it? Or you could just watch TV or read a book, up to you sir.

Rather than believing everybody around you knows nothing, how about shutting up for a second and trying to take in what someone else is saying? Though, I realise by now that this is a futile request.
How about shutting up? My my sir, such temper. Another piece of evidence to portray your lack of serenity and calm mind

You and the Hindutva loons are simply wasting time if you think there is ever a chance that Sikhism will be swallowed by Hinduism. That's a futile cause for sure.
Read above. Maybe you should try to understand what Hindutva means? Just a suggestion.

Nobody wants Hinduism eating up anything thanks, a lot of us are overfed by our Granmas as it is. However, there is the fact that the philosophies of both 'religions' go hand in hand and indeed if you looked at it by taking a step back, Sikhism does seem to be no more different than Vaishnavism or Shaivism. End of the day, it does seem to be one of many sects within Hinduism.

I wonder what the sad reply to this will be :rolleyes:
I hope it was sad enough for you
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USingh
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Bait? No bait. Not everyone writes here with strange agendas.
Oh no, the Supreme court of Hindustan has spoken, the Court of the same country which lists Sikhs has Hindus, their position on the matter is not surprising at all really. In fact I was already aware of it.

"I can see RSS/HSS has already done its damage" <- Naivety of HSS and unfounded assertion 'damage' used
Naivety? It's called an opinion. You see HSS as as something good, I see it as bad. You seem to have a mentality that anyone who disagrees with you must be wrong. Just because I feel differently towards an ideology or organisation to you does not give you the right to say that I lack knowledge on the issue.
"Stop babbling" <- Indicative of one who has lost his cool
Or someone who doesn't bother with fake sugar coated words

Both phrases used by you emerge from intense emotion which means you aren't possessing a calm mind and unable to debate maturely without unfounded assertions.
No, not really. Unless you were sitting beside me while I wrote those posts I don't see how you can be so sure of that. Giving yourself a bit too much credit methinks.

I've provided it now. Perhaps you would like to glance over it?
Oh, I read it... and laughed. I didn't realise that you knew that little about Sikhism that you still thought there was no difference.

How about shutting up? My my sir, such temper. Another piece of evidence to portray your lack of serenity and calm mind
Haha, "evidence". You seem to spend a lot of time on internet debates, thats funny.

However, there is the fact that the philosophies of both 'religions' go hand in hand and indeed if you looked at it by taking a step back, Sikhism does seem to be no more different than Vaishnavism or Shaivism. End of the day, it does seem to be one of many sects within Hinduism.
Lol, Suave the internet scholar. Keep repeating that to yourself then
Sikhs will continue 500+ years of remaining distinct regardless of anyone's efforts.
End of the day, we are distinct in our beliefs, our way of life and we choose to be distinct. And if we don't wan't to be part of the family thats up to us.
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Suave
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(Original post by USingh)
Bait? No bait. Not everyone writes here with strange agendas.
Oh no, the Supreme court of Hindustan has spoken, the Court of the same country which lists Sikhs has Hindus, their position on the matter is not surprising at all really. In fact I was already aware of it.
Ermm...India is a secular nation did you not know? Constitution states:

WE, THE PEOPLE OF INDIA, having solemnly resolved to constitute India into a SOVEREIGN
SOCIALIST, SECULAR, DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC and to secure to all its citizens:

JUSTICE, social, economic and political;

LIBERTY of thought, expression, belief, faith and worship;

EQUALITY of status and of opportunity;

and to promote among them all

FRATERNITY assuring the dignity of the individual and the unity and integrity of the Nation;

IN OUR CONSTITUENT ASSEMBLY this twenty-sixth day of November, 1949, do HEREBY
ADOPT, ENACT AND GIVE TO OURSELVES THIS CONSTITUTION.


Seems like you like to argue with everything that doesn't fit into your views. The Supreme Court of India has given it's definitive judgment on Hindutva, but you'd probably like to hear the definition from the Khalistan Movement :rolleyes: .

Naivety? It's called an opinion. You see HSS as as something good, I see it as bad.
You don't know what the HSS do. I doubt you even know what they are. Have you heard of Vasudhaiva Kutumbakum? It's our doctrine, maybe you should look it up? Or is that too much to ask?

You seem to have a mentality that anyone who disagrees with you must be wrong. Just because I feel differently towards an ideology or organisation to you does not give you the right to say that I lack knowledge on the issue.
You do lack knowledge though- accept it. You have issues with RSS, that's nice, but RSS aren't the same as the HSS. Until you know what the HSS are about, your opinions are worthless I'm afraid.


No, not really. Unless you were sitting beside me while I wrote those posts I don't see how you can be so sure of that. Giving yourself a bit too much credit methinks.
Call it a hunch


Oh, I read it... and laughed. I didn't realise that you knew that little about Sikhism that you still thought there was no difference.
Nice backed-up fruits you've brought to the table there.

Haha, "evidence". You seem to spend a lot of time on internet debates, thats funny.
Hilarious I know.

Lol, Suave the internet scholar. Keep repeating that to yourself then
Aww, thanks mate.

Sikhs will continue 500+ years of remaining distinct regardless of anyone's efforts.
End of the day, we are distinct in our beliefs, our way of life and we choose to be distinct. And if we don't wan't to be part of the family thats up to us.
That's great for you
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USingh
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(Original post by Suave)
Ermm...India is a secular nation did you not know? Constitution states:
...
LOL, of course.

Seems like you like to argue with everything that doesn't fit into your views.
Bit like you then really.

The Supreme Court of India has given it's definitive judgment on Hindutva
ermm, what should I say, ... jai hind? LOL


but you'd probably like to hear the definition from the Khalistan Movement :rolleyes: .
You got that right.


You don't know what the HSS do. I doubt you even know what they are. Have you heard of Vasudhaiva Kutumbakum? It's our doctrine, maybe you should look it up? Or is that too much to ask?
Ohh I'm fully aware of that. The way its done seems to me abit like force feeding cake though.


You do lack knowledge though- accept it. You have issues with RSS, that's nice, but RSS aren't the same as the HSS. Until you know what the HSS are about, your opinions are worthless I'm afraid.
I have issues with any organisation that teaches Sikhs are Hindus.
And by that token until you or any of the khaki brigade know what Sikhi is about your opinions are worthless.


Nice backed-up fruits you've brought to the table there.
Well seeing as you requested me not to debate with you so nicely I don't see the point.

That's great for you
Sure is.
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