Is Scottish independence a 'good or bad' thing? Watch

Poll: Should Scotland be an independent country?
YES (299)
32.12%
NO (632)
67.88%
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Cryptographic
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#4921
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#4921
If I am honest, the white paper was so incomplete that no one can credibly vote for independence, the whole of the white paper assumes that the world will do everything for Scotland, realistically Scotland will NOT get the pound (Wales). Will almost defiantly NOT get into EU (Spain). Not get into NATO (The rest of NATO) and will never impact on the world stage.

I also think splitting up because of which party will rule is incredibly short-sighted.

Also with their fairly open-door immigration policy will NEVER work in combination with an open door policy with England.
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L i b
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#4922
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#4922
(Original post by EsomR)
If I am honest, the white paper was so incomplete that no one can credibly vote for independence
Indeed. It's very telling that, within days, the Scottish Government were pumping out new figures to supplement the white paper. This was intended to be their grand vision, where all questions would be answered, and was months in the making. It was not supposed to be getting revised before the ink had even dried.
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Cryptographic
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#4923
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#4923
(Original post by L i b)
Indeed. It's very telling that, within days, the Scottish Government were pumping out new figures to supplement the white paper. This was intended to be their grand vision, where all questions would be answered, and was months in the making. It was not supposed to be getting revised before the ink had even dried.
Yes, one of the biggest flaws of it is that there are no plan Bs. There is a chance that they could become completely isolated from international communities.

But credit to the SNP, I know quite a few Scots, all bar one are opposed to independence, but if I remember correctly they will not be able to vote, I think most England based Scots are against it, but can't vote. Therefore SNP have made a smart move.
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MatureStudent36
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#4924
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#4924
(Original post by L i b)
Indeed. It's very telling that, within days, the Scottish Government were pumping out new figures to supplement the white paper. This was intended to be their grand vision, where all questions would be answered, and was months in the making. It was not supposed to be getting revised before the ink had even dried.
I suppose they thought it would never be questioned either.
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MatureStudent36
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#4925
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#4925
(Original post by EsomR)
Yes, one of the biggest flaws of it is that there are no plan Bs. There is a chance that they could become completely isolated from international communities.

But credit to the SNP, I know quite a few Scots, all bar one are opposed to independence, but if I remember correctly they will not be able to vote, I think most England based Scots are against it, but can't vote. Therefore SNP have made a smart move.
There's still about 60 percent who will vote no. And a lot of the YeSNP support is coming from demographics unlikely to vote.

Its one thing saying yes in a telephone poll, I think the cold light of day in the polling booth will scare a lot away.

The idea may be palatable for some, but there's enough Independant analysis been done that says that the conk mice don't add up.

I'm not voting no, because of economics. Like most, I'm proud of what Scotland has achieved over the past three hundred years and won't be sways by romanticised, flawed rhetoric.
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Yi-Ge-Ningderen
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#4926
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#4926
It is a a joke that foreigners can vote in the referendum.
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hchapman
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#4927
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#4927
All the percentages regarding Scottish energy are irrelevant to the question. The bottom line is Scotland can cope on its own.
As much as it it is made out in the media that David Cameron is against Scottish Independence, it's a win - win either way for the Tories. If Scotland do go independent, we could have a Tory government for years and years to come as Scotland is held majorly by Labour. It would be a disaster for left-wingers, hence why Alistair Darling's the main man in the Better Together campaign. It concerns people more than they might think.
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L i b
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#4928
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#4928
(Original post by MatureStudent36)
I suppose they thought it would never be questioned either.
I don't know, I'm beginning to think constant shift and out-of-the-hat revelations are a conscious choice from the nationalists. Harder to hit a moving target and all that.
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L i b
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#4929
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#4929
(Original post by hchapman)
All the percentages regarding Scottish energy are irrelevant to the question. The bottom line is Scotland can cope on its own.
No, that's far from the bottom line. The bottom line is that it'd be much worse off.

As much as it it is made out in the media that David Cameron is against Scottish Independence, it's a win - win either way for the Tories
Nope. The Tory Party's interests are the same as that of the nation - and we will be extremely harmed and diminished from separating our country up in this fashion.
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hchapman
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#4930
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#4930
(Original post by L i b)
Nope. The Tory Party's interests are the same as that of the nation
Very debatable. We're not all right wing, some of us aren't from privileged backgrounds. When the Tories say they are the party for "hardworking people" what they actually mean is that they are the party to help the rich stay rich and the poor stay poor.
Personally I loathe them all so I'm always going to be a bit biased, but you can't argue with the fact that Labour will lose more than the Tories if Scotland vote for independence. They would have won with a majority without Scottish votes in 2010, so it must be on the back of someone's mind.
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Kj91
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#4931
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#4931
(Original post by EsomR)
If I am honest, the white paper was so incomplete that no one can credibly vote for independence, the whole of the white paper assumes that the world will do everything for Scotland, realistically Scotland will NOT get the pound (Wales). Will almost defiantly NOT get into EU (Spain). Not get into NATO (The rest of NATO) and will never impact on the world stage.

I also think splitting up because of which party will rule is incredibly short-sighted.

Also with their fairly open-door immigration policy will NEVER work in combination with an open door policy with England.
Why would Wales stop Scotland getting the pound? Are you referring to the comments by Carwyn Jones. What power does the first minister of Wales have over that decision? Sterling is a fully tradeable currency. Any country can use it. Scotland does not need the UK's permission to keep the pound.
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Midlander
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#4932
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#4932
(Original post by Kj91)
Why would Wales stop Scotland getting the pound? Are you referring to the comments by Carwyn Jones. What power does the first minister of Wales have over that decision? Sterling is a fully tradeable currency. Any country can use it. Scotland does not need the UK's permission to keep the pound.
Of course anyone can use it, just like Panama and Zimbabwe use the US dollar-it doesn't mean that they have any influence over monetary policy though. They are also tied to the fate of the country which has the ultimate jurisdiction over it, which is exactly the position Scotland already has. How is maintaining a currency union achieving full independence?
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Midlander
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#4933
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#4933
(Original post by hchapman)
Very debatable. We're not all right wing, some of us aren't from privileged backgrounds. When the Tories say they are the party for "hardworking people" what they actually mean is that they are the party to help the rich stay rich and the poor stay poor.
Personally I loathe them all so I'm always going to be a bit biased, but you can't argue with the fact that Labour will lose more than the Tories if Scotland vote for independence. They would have won with a majority without Scottish votes in 2010, so it must be on the back of someone's mind.
Bizarrely one of the Yes voters here kindly demonstrated that rarely has Labour needed the Scottish vote to get its majority. The reality is that the English vote more or less decides who gets in as NI elect none of the main UK parties which means that what is left is dominated by English seats. Clearly we aren't all greedy Tories which is why Labour get in their fair share of times.
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Midlander
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#4934
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#4934
(Original post by hchapman)
All the percentages regarding Scottish energy are irrelevant to the question. The bottom line is Scotland can cope on its own.
As much as it it is made out in the media that David Cameron is against Scottish Independence, it's a win - win either way for the Tories. If Scotland do go independent, we could have a Tory government for years and years to come as Scotland is held majorly by Labour. It would be a disaster for left-wingers, hence why Alistair Darling's the main man in the Better Together campaign. It concerns people more than they might think.
Why are the Scottish Conservatives, and the UK Conservatives, dead behind it as well then? Bear in mind the Scottish Tories hold 10 more MSPs than the Lib Dems at this point and poll at around a fifth of the Scottish vote. It is the English vote which has by far the most influence on the ruling party and that quite clearly hasn't always been Conservative, far from it.
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Midlander
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#4935
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#4935
(Original post by L i b)
Indeed. It's very telling that, within days, the Scottish Government were pumping out new figures to supplement the white paper. This was intended to be their grand vision, where all questions would be answered, and was months in the making. It was not supposed to be getting revised before the ink had even dried.
At least it served one useful purpose-it had policies in it which confirmed open discrimination against people from RUK nations. Northern Irish students get punished for being a part of the UK whereas those next door in the Republic get it for free. Sturgeon's geographical argument blown out the water there and then.
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Midlander
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#4936
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#4936
(Original post by Yi-Ge-Ningderen)
It is a a joke that foreigners can vote in the referendum.
'Scotland is a welcoming country' Annabel Goldie, QuestionTime, 2013
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Choo.choo
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#4937
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#4937
(Original post by L i b)
No, that's far from the bottom line. The bottom line is that it'd be much worse off.
Actually, London will be worse off when they don't get Scotland's oil any more
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L i b
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#4938
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#4938
(Original post by Kj91)
Why would Wales stop Scotland getting the pound? Are you referring to the comments by Carwyn Jones. What power does the first minister of Wales have over that decision? Sterling is a fully tradeable currency. Any country can use it. Scotland does not need the UK's permission to keep the pound.
There's no reason the Welsh First Minister wouldn't be consulted on issues of this nature. There would be a huge constitutional upheaval caused in the rUK by Scotland breaking away and it's entirely likely matters of constitutional importance will have to be put to a constitutional commission or something of that type.

We can sterlingise and use sterling for trade, but that's not what the nationalists are proposing. It's also not really 'having' the pound, but rather just using it.
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L i b
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#4939
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#4939
(Original post by Choo.choo)
Actually, London will be worse off when they don't get Scotland's oil any more
Nope. As we've already established, this money has been more than spent on Scotland. At the moment, Scotland has a £7bn deficit - it ain't giving anyone anything.
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Midlander
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#4940
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#4940
(Original post by Choo.choo)
Actually, London will be worse off when they don't get Scotland's oil any more
Equating London with RUK, nice.


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