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what would happen if people had a white or caucasian society at a university watch

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    (Original post by wacabac)
    Do you consider yourself to be racist at all?
    Do you consider yourself to be a racist at all?

    Your views so far expressed would give someone more cause to ponder than mine.

    Someone mentions "black culture" which is mainly used to talk about black music or black art or other aspects of black culture yet you first think of Black racists?
    No, someone mentions black culture that you use to mean one thing, and into my head popped a black culture society that I read about yesterday.

    A perfectly natural state of affairs.

    And before you equate this argument with "white culture", this is because the term has almost exclusively been used in the context of white supremacy.
    Except we look through the 301,000 links and find that to be different, so again what you actually mean is that you equate it with white supremacy.

    So what you are really arguing is that a society and it's right to exist is based on what pops into your head, rather than the rights of the masses?
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    (Original post by wacabac)
    No that isn't what I'm saying at all.
    So what are you saying?

    That's exactly what I read.

    Would like to construct an argument for once rather than just sitting back and criticising constantly without presenting anything of your own?
    If you read the thread you will see my argument has been presented.

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    (Original post by Lawz-)
    It need not be.
    What do you mean it need not be? We have discussed that the term is most commonly used in a racist context. You have not given me an example of where it is not, your quoting of its usage by the BNP is just another example of this. Yes perhaps there is somewhere (which we are yet to see) that "white culture" is used in a non-white supremacist context, but the vast majority of the time, it is. Does that really make it inexcusable that such a term as "white culture" conjures up connotations of racism, whereas black culture (barely ever used in a racist context) does not?
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    (Original post by wacabac)
    So, Lawz, does your argument for a white society being socially acceptable come from your own frustration of finding yourself a minority? Do you seek the company of other white people at all?
    If you read the whole thread I think you will find that Lawz is not even arguing for a white society, all he is saying is that if there is a black one then there should be equal rights offered to white students, and they should be allowed a society too, should they wish for one (and the other way around too) but that he personally feels there is no need for any race based socieities.

    (this gets repetative, I do wish people would read the threads)
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    (Original post by wacabac)
    What do you mean it need not be? We have discussed that the term is most commonly used in a racist context. You have not given me an example of where it is not, your quoting of its usage by the BNP is just another example of this.
    The BNP do not use it in a supremacist context. I dont support them. I agree they are racists, but I dont believe in distorting their platform. In terms of culture, they argue to preserve white culture, not that it is objectively superior.

    (Original post by wacabac)
    Yes perhaps there is somewhere (which we are yet to see) that "white culture" is used in a non-white supremacist context, but the vast majority of the time, it is. Does that really make it inexcusable that such a term as "white culture" conjures up connotations of racism, whereas black culture (barely ever used in a racist context) does not?
    Inexcusable? Not really.. but a double standard? yes. Perhaps having white culture soieties would help to address the ingrained prejudice to the term?
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    (Original post by wacabac)
    What do you mean it need not be? We have discussed that the term is most commonly used in a racist context. You have not given me an example of where it is not, your quoting of its usage by the BNP is just another example of this. Yes perhaps there is somewhere (which we are yet to see) that "white culture" is used in a non-white supremacist context
    You have seen several examples, me and Lawz for two.

    Are we white supremacists?

    (If we are you better tell Lawz wife to be )
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    (Original post by Paul Bedford)
    If you read the whole thread I think you will find that Lawz is not even arguing for a white society, all he is saying is that if there is a black one then there should be equal rights offered to white students, and they should be allowed a society too, should they wish for one (and the other way around too) but that he personally feels there is no need for any race based socieities.

    (this gets repetative, I do wish people would read the threads)
    Pretty close. I dont really make a judgement for the need of a cultural society using race as a descriptive term... but aside from that - yes - I am not saying WE MUST HAVE WHITE SOCIETIES - all I am saying is that they would be just as valid as a black one, and yet, IMO would be criticised far more; as this thread demonstrates.
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    (Original post by Paul Bedford)
    You have seen several examples, me and Lawz for two.
    (Original post by Paul Bedford)

    Are we white supremacists?

    (If we are you better tell Lawz wife to be )


    Heh... yes - she would be rather surprised ... I have been really good at keeping my cross burning paraphernalia hidden all these years.
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    (Original post by Paul Bedford)
    Do you consider yourself to be a racist at all?
    I ask you again, do you consider yourself to be a racist?

    No, someone mentions black culture that you use to mean one thing, and into my head popped a black culture society that I read about yesterday.

    A perfectly natural state of affairs.
    As I have explained to Lawz, it is far more understandable for "white culture" to have racist connotations than it does for "black culture" to because of the usage of each term. How frequently do you hear "black culture" being used in reference to black racists rather than the artistic and social expression of black people?

    Except we look through the 301,000 links and find that to be different, so again what you actually mean is that you equate it with white supremacy.
    You looked through all those links? I severely doubt that. Show me links of where "white culture" was used in a different context and I might believe there is some validity to your argument.

    So what you are really arguing is that a society and it's right to exist is based on what pops into your head, rather than the rights of the masses?
    No I am not.
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    (Original post by wacabac)
    I ask you again, do you consider yourself to be a racist?
    He doesnt. Clearly. Answer it yourself. He's right that certain comments you have made on here would be seen by many as racist. Namely whites are power crazed... etc
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    (Original post by Lawz-)
    Pretty close. I dont really make a judgement for the need of a cultural society using race as a descriptive term... but aside from that - yes - I am not saying WE MUST HAVE WHITE SOCIETIES - all I am saying is that they would be just as valid as a black one, and yet, IMO would be criticised far more; as this thread demonstrates.
    Then please let's narrow this debate. This thread has demonstrated that a non-exclusive (just as other ethnic minority societies are) "White Society" would not be controversial, no-one has expressed any problem with it. Initially, it was because people assumed that you had meant for such a society to be exclusive, which would be controversial. But as you have expressly stated that it is not then there would be no controversy.

    The criticism that such a society has received is that such a group would be incredibly vague and people would not really know what such a society's purpose would be. In response, you say that other society titles are too vague by this logic, yet others do not agree and attend such societies; such societies exist. If you disagree, thenfair enough, but it's a fact that these societies exist and people attend. However, a discussion of the vagueness of a society title is an irrelevant point as some may think that (they would not attend), and others such as yourselves, for example, may attend. And so be it! Not every person wants to attend every society.

    So there is nothing left to debate. Agreed?
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    (Original post by Lawz-)
    He doesnt. Clearly. Answer it yourself. He's right that certain comments you have made on here would be seen by many as racist. Namely whites are power crazed... etc
    I didn't say "whites are power crazed", implying that every white person is power mad, I said that "white man is power-mad", making reference to the role white man has had in history, that of a conqueror and oppressor.
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    (Original post by wacabac)
    I ask you again, do you consider yourself to be a racist?
    If you read my posts I think that is fairly obvious.

    I doubt anyone around here, in the last few days, has been more outspoken against the BNP, for example, than I have.

    I also had another thread about the preservation of races and cultures

    As I have explained to Lawz, it is far more understandable for "white culture" to have racist connotations than it does for "black culture" to because of the usage of each term
    To you

    I don't find it understandable at all, I find it rather distasteful and racist.

    There is a myriad of wonderous and beautiful things to behold and share within white culture, as there is with the culture of any race or peoples, be they primitive, civilised, western, eastern, black or white, and I find it a shame that some people, and it is only some, seek to ignore all that, and instead focus only on the negative.

    How would you feel if I summed up black culture as muggings, gun crime, drug abuse, etc?

    Would these be valid parts of black culture?

    How frequently do you hear "black culture" being used in reference to black racists rather than the artistic and social expression of black people?
    I hear it used in referance to crime and drugs far more frequently than I would like.

    Does it make those things the sole example of black culture, or do we look beyond that?

    You looked through all those links?
    I didn't say that, did I?

    You said they all talked about racism, I said if you read them they do not, I saw many that didn't.

    It does not mean I read them all, of course I didn't.

    Show me links of where "white culture" was used in a different context and I might believe there is some validity to your argument.
    From a black site

    "Such actions uphold hooks' assertion that ethnicity can be used to enliven experiences within mainstream white culture"

    Fully recognised, and not with a racist connotation.
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    Please refer to Post #491, I shall only be discussing that in attempt to narrow the debate once more.
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    Please also refer to this from post #445:


    (Original post by Lawz-)
    Since no "white societies" exist as I can find them, this has to be, in part, hypothetical.
    OK so no "white societies" are in existence, so what is the point in this debate? I know the title is "what would happen if people had a white or caucasian society at a university" and your argument that no such society is in existence because of the controversy it would cause. We agree that if it was non-exclusive then there would be no real controversy, although some would disagree, but then we have evidence that some people object to a "black society" so there is no double standard.

    As I see it, there are three arguments for a non-exclusive "white society" not existing:

    1. Such a society would cause too much controversy, which would be unjustified when compared to how little disagreement there is about societies of ethnic minorities at universities in this country.

    As we have discussed, this point is no longer valid since a) if it is not exclusive, there would be no real controversy about the group. b) There is no double standard since some do disagree with, our primary example, the idea of "black society".

    So onwards! The second argument:

    2. The term "white culture" is a useless term, too vague and hence there would no purpose in such a society.

    This we are still in disagreement about.

    3. A "White society" is pointless as we live in a country of white culture.

    Are there any arguments I have missed? Would you like to address these arguments concisely?
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    (Original post by wacabac)
    Please also refer to this from post #445:




    OK so no "white societies" are in existence, so what is the point in this debate? I know the title is "what would happen if people had a white or caucasian society at a university" and your argument that no such society is in existence because of the controversy it would cause. We agree that if it was non-exclusive then there would be no real controversy, although some would disagree, but then we have evidence that some people object to a "black society" so there is no double standard.

    As I see it, there are three arguments for a non-exclusive "white society" not existing:

    1. Such a society would cause too much controversy, which would be unjustified when compared to how little disagreement there is about societies of ethnic minorities at universities in this country.

    As we have discussed, this point is no longer valid since a) if it is not exclusive, there would be no real controversy about the group. b) There is no double standard since some do disagree with, our primary example, the idea of "black society".

    So onwards! The second argument:

    2. The term "white culture" is a useless term, too vague and hence there would no purpose in such a society.

    This we are still in disagreement about.

    3. A "White society" is pointless as we live in a country of white culture.

    Are there any arguments I have missed? Would you like to address these arguments concisely?
    I answered that post in full at the time.

    Why repost it when most of the points were invalid?
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    (Original post by wacabac)
    This thread has demonstrated that a non-exclusive (just as other ethnic minority societies are) "White Society" would not be controversial
    The fact we have 490+ posts of debate demonstrates the exact opposite.

    So there is nothing left to debate. Agreed?
    That's one of the few points you've made I do agree with.

    Fact 1. The question was "what would happen if people had a white or caucasian society at a university?"

    Answer. This thread has demonstrated that would be a controversial move.

    Fact 2. Societies for other races exist, without controversy.

    Fact 3. This indicates a degree of reverse racism, whether intentional or not.

    The only thing left to discuss is why there is this racism/controversy, and how do we address it?

    How do we make it so that the next thread that appears with a question like "what would happen if people had a white or caucasian society at a university?" is met with a short response that there either is one, or that there would be no objection, rather than some of the anti-white racism we have seen in this thread, or some of the ignorance surrounding what black or white culture is?
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    (Original post by Paul Bedford)
    I answered that post in full at the time.

    Why repost it when most of the points were invalid?
    Sorry, I managed to miss out your post.

    The fact of the matter is, there is nothing to debate here. You propose that a "white society" would cause controversy. Firstly, you have no evidence of a society being started and the ensuing controversy, so this is an argument based purely on conjecture. You believe that it would be highly controversial, I do not, there is no evidence to suggest either way, so it is your word against mine and entirely pointless. You argue that the term "white culture" does not really have connotations of racism and white supremacy, so you have eliminated the only argument as to why a non-exclusive "white culture" group would cause controversy, thherefore you have no reasoning for your opinions, you just say it would be. Hence nothing to discuss.

    Voila, thread over.
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    (Original post by wacabac)
    Sorry, I managed to miss out your post.

    The fact of the matter is, there is nothing to debate here. You propose that a "white society" would cause controversy. Firstly, you have no evidence of a society being started and the ensuing controversy, so this is an argument based purely on conjecture
    No, it's an argument based on many things, not least 20 pages of controversy here.

    You believe that it would be highly controversial, I do not, there is no evidence to suggest either way, so it is your word against mine and entirely pointless.
    But it isn't my word against yours is it?

    This thread is not just me and you, is it?

    This thread stands beyond my word, or your word.

    Voila, thread over.
    Bye then
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    (Original post by Paul Bedford)
    The fact we have 490+ posts of debate demonstrates the exact opposite.
    Just to answer this before I go, this thread has not demonstrated that such a society would cause controversy, this thread has been mainly debating what black and white culture is. Many many many posts ago, when Lawz clarified that it would be non-exclusive to whites, no-one expressed that they had a problem with the society on the basis of race issues.

    The only discussion there has been about such a group is what it would stand for, "white culture" appears to be a nebulous term to some (myself included), but this is in no way controversy as you make out, but curiosity as to the nature of the group. People would not be outraged by it if they didn't understand what the purpose of a "white society" was, they just wouldn't attend. It would be apathy, not controversy. Hence there is no controversy about the group, merely curiosity as to its function. End of discussion.
 
 
 
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