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    (Original post by Will Lucky)
    One member of Labour is institutionalized Racism? What is half of UKIP then .
    I see a poorly aimed smear, but no evidence to support it.
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    (Original post by Kibalchich)
    Anyone who thinks the private sector is inherently efficient has never dealt with NPower.
    UKBA!
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    (Original post by chefdave)
    I think you misunderstand me.

    I fully accept that there are some extremely capable and hardworking people in the public sector. But I believe the way it operates causes them to work in an inefficient and unproductive manner which results in gross overspend and a 'non-job' culture that provides little of the way in value but cost lots in terms of £'s.

    It's not necessarily their fault we're all to blame. But I think we need to come to terms with the idea that the public sector is in need of some serious reform. We cannot keep dodging it because it's the 'nice' politically correct thing to do. That thinking will result in state bankruptcy.
    I know where this conversation is heading.

    You'll tell me that the public sector is inefficient, costly and poorly run.

    Everything should be privatised because this increases standards. The profit incentive increases output and because shareholders are financially culpable, costs are lowered.

    Then I'll tell you to look at the costliest healthcare system on the planet, the American one, privately run.

    The trust system and fund holding GPs didn't work under Thatcher. It reduced costs through tax, which is irrelevant if standards stagnate. Which they did.

    This is microcosmic of the whole public/private sector debate.
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    (Original post by biggie)
    A few will be dead set in their views, and that is fine, but many who talk of scroungers will be GCSE/A-level students who swallow everything they read in the newspapers, without conducting further research. I was exactly the same until I grew older.
    You'd actually be surprised how many scroungers there actually are. The left are notorious for try to negate claims that the welfare system is extensively exploited without actually providing evidence to prove the contrary. Even my mum (who is a trained social worker and now works for Age UK as an adviser) used to be a committed lefty until she started her job in which she comes into daily contact with people trying to squeeze whatever they can out of the system (many of them wealthy middle class people). Personally, I know of about six people who have their income supplemented by the state, and at least three of them know fully well they could do without it. One of them, a relative, is on DLA and recently used it to buy a Mulberry handbag for herself. The culture of scrounging is a real problem; the UK is turning into a society that demands rights instead of accepting responsibilities.

    EDIT: I'm not against welfare whatsoever. If anything, I think benefits for those who really need it should be increased. I just think the current system is disastrously inefficient.
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    (Original post by dj1015)
    I wouldn't waste your time with this one Dave. His response wont contain a valid argument. Your time would be better spent painting grass green.
    You're right. But you know me - I can't resist an opportunity to attack the Hallowed NHS! Especially if it's being used as a justification for wastefulness and overspend in every single government deparment. I think we'd do well as a country well by ditching this emotional attachment to nursing and healthcare, IT'S A SERVICE, just like any other, it doesn't deserve any special treatment or to put on a pedestal by teary-eyed, senseless left-wingers.
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    (Original post by AtlasCanTakeIt)
    I know where this conversation is heading.

    You'll tell me that the public sector is inefficient, costly and poorly run.

    Everything should be privatised because this increases standards. The profit incentive increases output and because shareholders are financially culpable, costs are lowered.

    Then I'll tell you to look at the costliest healthcare system on the planet, the American one, privately run.

    The trust system and fund holding GPs didn't work under Thatcher. It reduced costs through tax, which is irrelevant if standards stagnate. Which they did.

    This is microcosmic of the whole public/private sector debate.
    As I've pointed out many, many times now the American healthcare system is private, but NOT free market. If the state owns a monopoly and then sells that monopoly off to a bunch of cronies in the private sector that industry doesn't automatically conform to the principles of the free market (which does raise output and lower costs), it funells a load of unearned wealth into private pockets. That is not what I'm about, but it's easier for you to purposely skew the issue and tackle strawmen than deal with the reality of government bloat.
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    (Original post by chefdave)
    As I've pointed out many, many times now the American healthcare system is private, but NOT free market. If the state owns a monopoly and then sells that monopoly off to a bunch of cronies in the private sector that industry doesn't automatically conform to the principles of the free market (which does raise output and lower costs), it funells a load of unearned wealth into private pockets. That is not what I'm about, but it's easier for you to purposely skew the issue and tackle strawmen than deal with the reality of government bloat.
    The nature of the free market is that it is unregulated and can be monopolised. Highest bidder and all that.

    What am I missing?
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    (Original post by dj1015)
    I see a poorly aimed smear, but no evidence to support it.
    http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/...s-8420815.html

    I'll let Owen Jones deal with this one, as much as I hate him he at least speaks truth here.
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    (Original post by Will Lucky)
    http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/...s-8420815.html

    I'll let Owen Jones deal with this one, as much as I hate him he at least speaks truth here.
    Owen Jones talking about UKIP. This will be an upstanding piece of Journalism I am sure.

    The only thing he could dig up is the Burqa ban, a policy which was abandoned by Farge. So forget that one. Other than that it is just leftist rhetoric, which no sound evidence to support it.
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    (Original post by AtlasCanTakeIt)
    The nature of the free market is that it is unregulated and can be monopolised. Highest bidder and all that.

    What am I missing?
    Parts of the market can be monopolised (this is where markets fail) but others due to their replaceable nature cannot.

    The tricky part is deciding when and where markets are beneficial. They're good for many things, but where there's a natural monopoly (say with policing or the court system for example) it's probably best left to the state.

    At the mo we're definitely suffering from a case of state overreach however, do you really want to spend the rest of your life paying back gov't debt? What sort of positive vision of the future is that?
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    (Original post by dj1015)
    Owen Jones talking about UKIP. This will be an upstanding piece of Journalism I am sure.
    It's an excellent article and makes a lot of very pertinent points.

    (1) Farage has hidden views that are not investigated by a compliant media. For example, Jones records a fascistic view of Farage's - that poor children have poor genes - at an unrecorded debate segment he attended. This is unsurprising, as Farage is a far-Right extreme libertarian and someone who left the Tory Party in disgust during the Thatcher period because it wasn't right wing enough.

    (2) Ukip have had saturation uncritical coverage, not least from the BBC, regarded laughably by the right as a hotbed of pinkos.

    (3) They share many platforms with the BNP - their views are almost identical in many areas.

    (4) They would cut corporate taxes to such a low level that substantial portions of the NHS and state pensions would become unviable. They would literally push millions of pensioners into destitution.

    Nice man, that Farage, very jolly.
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    (Original post by dj1015)
    Again, you said nothing. If you wish to debate, then you must express some valid points, backed up back evidence
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    It's an excellent article and makes a lot of very pertinent points.
    Care to specify which, so that I may formulate a response.

    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)

    (1) Farage has hidden views that are not investigated by a compliant media. For example, Jones records a fascistic view of Farage's - that poor children have poor genes - at an unrecorded debate segment he attended. This is unsurprising, as Farage is a far-Right extreme libertarian and someone who left the Tory Party in disgust during the Thatcher period because it wasn't right wing enough.
    None of the views of Nigel are hidden. Rather convenient that it was "unrecorded" on this occasion.

    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)

    (2) Ukip have had saturation uncritical coverage, not least from the BBC, regarded laughably by the right as a hotbed of pinkos.
    UKIP have come in for lots of criticism. Not least from the Prime minister of the UK. Also Labour and the BBC have been caught conspiring to smear UKIP.

    And The BBguardian are a hot bed of pinko as you put it.

    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)

    (3) They share many platforms with the BNP - their views are almost identical in many areas.
    Please specify which, so that I may address your concerns.

    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)

    (4) They would cut corporate taxes to such a low level that substantial portions of the NHS and state pensions would become unviable. They would literally push millions of pensioners into destitution.
    First part is a good thing. The second part is your opinion, and is also wrong.

    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)

    Nice man, that Farage, very jolly.
    He is.
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    (Original post by AtlasCanTakeIt)
    Surely not because voting conservative IS 'bad' for the country?

    I'm also bored of this 'I know some people' tripe.

    A conservative led government removed around 3 million from paying income tax completely.

    On the other hand Labour removed the 10p tax rate!

    Thatcher saved Britain from champagne socialists!
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    (Original post by dj1015)
    Care to specify which, so that I may formulate a response.

    Please specify which, so that I may address your concerns.
    You do speak as if you are a Ukip representative. What office do you hold in the organisation out of interest? If you are speaking for Ukip, just as a basic courtesy you should be honest about your role here.
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    (Original post by chefdave)
    The NHS is a shining example of gross state overspend and inefficiency, yes. This is why patients like Kane Gorny literally die of thirst on wards everyday because NHS nurses (or the angels of death as some people dub them) deny patients even the most basic necessities like a glass of water.

    But the NHS is a collectivist institution right? So it's alright when it breaks a few eggs in pursuit of that delicious socialist omlette. Hmmm it tastes so good.
    There are clearly some problems in the NHS. Mainly to do with understaffing.

    As for "collectvist institution"? Everything is collectivist. Human beings are by nature collectivist.
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    (Original post by chefdave)
    Parts of the market can be monopolised (this is where markets fail) but others due to their replaceable nature cannot.

    The tricky part is deciding when and where markets are beneficial. They're good for many things, but where there's a natural monopoly (say with policing or the court system for example) it's probably best left to the state.

    At the mo we're definitely suffering from a case of state overreach however, do you really want to spend the rest of your life paying back gov't debt? What sort of positive vision of the future is that?
    Parts of the market can be monopolised?

    What if that results in the closure of a specialist hospital?

    What if, for example, I need a heart transplant and the hospital 30 miles from my home is closed because of 'over expenditure', or other cost effective issues. Then because I need specialist treatment I have to travel to Scotland, or the other side of the country?

    But then, there's only 1 or 2 specialist hospitals left for NHS patients. So I go on a waiting list. Who pays for travel expenses?

    How do you prevent a two tier healthcare scenario? Those who can afford private care and those for whom GPs will say "we can't afford your treatment".

    Honestly. It takes nothing at all to say "get rid of the NHS altogether".

    With no fundamental understanding of how many people rely on a public healthcare system.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    You do speak as if you are a Ukip representative. What office do you hold in the organisation out of interest? If you are speaking for Ukip, just as a basic courtesy you should be honest about your role here.
    Your side stepping the points I made.......

    I dont speak for the party btw, dont what gives you that impression. I just support them in their goals to make the UK a better place.
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    (Original post by dj1015)
    Your side stepping the points I made.......

    I dont speak for the party btw, dont what gives you that impression. I just support them in their goals to make the UK a better place.
    You didn't make any valid points, therefore nothing to side step. I suggest you read the excellent article by Owen Jones and address his points, I was only summarising them.

    I made that comment because you sound like a Ukip staffer who is working round the clock here for the Party and I think you should be honest about it if that's what's happening. Also if 'you' are one of a number of accounts being run from there with that aim in mind.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    You didn't make any valid points, therefore nothing to side step. I suggest you read the excellent article by Owen Jones and address his points, I was only summarising them.
    I did, and you are still sidestepping the points I made in response to your "points".

    I would actually like to have some proper comment on this issue with you. But if you carry on like this, then I must terminate this line of conversation.

    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    I made that comment because you sound like a Ukip staffer who is working round the clock here for the Party and I think you should be honest about it if that's what's happening. Also if 'you' are one of a number of accounts being run from there with that aim in mind.
    I can tell you how much this made me laugh. You honestly believe their is a UKIP conspiracy to take over this forum? Do you really think that I am chefdave or anyone else?

    UKIP are nearly 20% of the vote and on the rise. Get off your horse and smell the air. UKIP is real and here to stay, so am I and my other UKIP friends.
 
 
 
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