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    (Original post by Koolio)
    The France that is championing "freedom of speech" is the same France that persecutes people for questioning the Holocaust.
    So no country which has libel laws, slander laws, incitement laws, etc can champion freedom of speech? Which means that, basically, no country can champion freedom of speech?
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    (Original post by AVGA17)
    For anyone comparing Charlie Hebdo's cartoons to racism, antisemitism and homophobia, I'll say what I keep saying to everyone citing this apparent 'double standard'


    Being black, gay, or jewish (ethnically not religiously) or anything of the like, is not a choice.

    Religion IS a choice..

    Every choice a human being makes in their lives has consequences. And every adult should be prepared to face these consequences. Everyone has the right to ctiticise people's choices. Criticise, not obstruct them from making them.

    Following a particular religious dogma is a choice. Nothing more. A choice everyone is free to opt out from at will. And of course, there are consequences. If it;s criticism from some newspapers in form of cartoons then so be it. Such is the price of freedom of expression.

    Because the same laws that allow those cartoons to be published, allow you to follow your religion without fear of persecution or opression.

    Charlie Hebdo weren't racist. They were criticising certain choices that fellow members of their society have made. They were excercising their right for free speech and freedom of expression. A right that muslims are free to excercise themselves as well. No one will EVER stop a muslim from publishing a cartoon of Jesus.

    And this right is something that I personally hold very close to my heart. Especially as an Artist.

    Je suis Charlie.
    This.

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    (Original post by Tom_Ford)
    This is exactly what the media wants you to believe, the French and the west are building it as some basic murder because of a cartoon. 50 years ago we did not see mass murders like this from Islamist groups. Ask yourself why that has changed.

    I also do not think 'Islamofascist' is that accurate a description really. What really was the motivation? Anti-faith and anti-minority propaganda has always been a feature of the media in Europe.

    Hamza is predictably involved, as are IS, but context specific it is obviously Algeria that should be looked into to get to the crux of the matter. Algeria originally had a moderate and idealistic Islamic (and fundamentalist) democratic movement that was beaten down with great brutality. This movement opposed the tyranny of a French puppet government in Algeria, and the brutality suffered by them was the worst of any country in the world. Think China, as the western press often likes to slate for their human rights abuses, but worse.

    Now, with that known, is it at all a surprise that young lads from the banlieue with little respect and social mobility/prospects in a France which practices widespread public contempt and hate for their religion, are a bit angry? (whilst being fully aware of the history of their country/relatives).

    There is a lot of wilful ignorance in the French press that prefers to forget their imperialistic oppression and choose to permit extreme attacks on Muslim beliefs as an everyday facet of life. Yeah, they're free to express it. But is that right? To view this as simply a war between high-minded elite 'western enlightenment' and some sort of brutal fascist medieval bloodcult is to totally miss the point and to wilfully ignore the west's part in having developed the crisis.

    Of course they are totally guilty and responsible for the crime itself. However one of the brothers was described as the sort that would not do this type of thing, a kind and sweet man. But stranger things have happened in the past to get someone so riled that they become radicalised and responsive to messages of hate and violence. I am not saying what he did was justified, but I think there is a bigger background to this than the message we're being sold by Murdoch/French media and co. We are being sold the French propaganda message, it's all about their liberty and equality vs medieval evil. But it is not all that , at all. It is a gross oversimplification.
    It's at least partly about the recent legacy of European colonialism in Africa and the Middle East (call it imperial hangover) and at least partly about the French role in it and the refusal of France to address these things.

    These guys are cannon fodder for every fanatic with a believable message aimed at giving them a sense of belonging and fuelling that anger/desire to put things 'right'. It could have been a cartoon, it could have been a government building, it could have been a plane, a subway train. Next time, they could be killing people because they don't like how they're discriminating against Muslims for X/Y/Z.

    This is not just some isolated incident and to treat it as such is why the west will continue failing to deal with the actual problem.
    Thanks for some truth. Charlie Hebdo was one of the most racist and offensive publications you can imagine. It’s like the French are suffering from total amnesia and are oblivious to the fact that they subjugated and brutally tortured the people of Algeria and Senegal, Tunisia, Mauritania, Morocco, and more recently Mali & Central African Republic, murdered their people like animals, destabilised and in some cases totally destroyed their establishments of education, trade, state, religion, and culture leaving behind total chaos in their place, without once, ever apologising. When the people from the former colonies of France decided to gain some economic opportunities in France, they were recompensed with ghettoisation and racism in all walks of life, to the point that France actually legislates what a Muslim woman is and isn't allowed to wear and yet they still hypocritically talk about freedom of expression. If I were a French Muslim, I'd wipe the floor with France and its hypocrisy.
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    (Original post by fsdfsfds)
    Thanks for some truth. Charlie Hebdo was one of the most racist and offensive publications you can imagine.
    No it wasn't. Do I really need to repeat what has been said thousands of times on this topic, explaining that Charlie is an anti-racist, anti-xenophobic, progressive, left-wing newspaper?

    (Original post by fsdfsfds)
    It’s like the French are suffering from total amnesia and are oblivious to the fact that they subjugated and brutally tortured the people of Algeria and Senegal, Tunisia, Mauritania, Morocco, and more recently Mali & Central African Republic, murdered their people like animals, destabilised and in some cases totally destroyed their establishments of education, trade, state, religion, and culture leaving behind total chaos in their place, without once, ever apologising.
    Um, what's your point there? Do you hold every French person as responsible for the horrible acts that past French governments committed decades ago? Are you also oblivious to the fact that our current Justice Minister passed a legislation 15 years ago recognising and apologising for France's past involvement in such activities? The same black woman, who comes from Guyana and has been defended by Charlie Hebdo?

    (Original post by fsdfsfds)
    When the people from the former colonies of France decided to gain some economic opportunities in France, they were recompensed with ghettoisation and racism in all walks of life, to the point that France actually legislates what a Muslim woman is and isn't allowed to wear and yet they still hypocritically talk about freedom of expression.
    I won't argue with you on the topics of ghettoisation and racism, because I do also believe we need to eradicate these issues.
    However, France does not "actually legislate what a Muslim woman is and isn't allowed to wear"; it merely (though I do admit it's a big deal for some people) forbids women from wearing the burqa, because that means we're unable to identify who the person really is: for all we know, it could be a fat Peruvian Jewish guy planning a terrorist attack on French sausage industries. The point is, this legislation was passed for security reasons, not ideological or religious ones. It still is a hot topic today and was passed under our past right-wing government.

    (Original post by fsdfsfds)
    If I were a French Muslim, I'd wipe the floor with France and its hypocrisy.
    But thankfully, you're not.
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    shouldn't it me je'mappelle charlie
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    (Original post by Guy Secretan)
    shouldn't it me je'mappelle charlie
    Calling oneself something is not the same as being that something.
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    Simply because they happened to draw an 'offensive' image (taken somewhat out of context here, by the way) does not mean I won't stand with them on this issue, regardless of the fact they may have made some low blows in the past. They were murdered by Islamist barbarians warped by intolerant religious ideologies merely for expressing their (rather valid) opinions via harmless cartoon images. They did not deserve their fate. And, quite frankly, I am more disgusted by the contrarian, holier-than-thou, apologist weasels with the gall to call them fascist bigots in the wake of what just happened.

    JE SUIS CHARLIE
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    (Original post by AVGA17)
    For anyone comparing Charlie Hebdo's cartoons to racism, antisemitism and homophobia, I'll say what I keep saying to everyone citing this apparent 'double standard'


    Being black, gay, or jewish (ethnically not religiously) or anything of the like, is not a choice.

    Religion IS a choice..

    Every choice a human being makes in their lives has consequences. And every adult should be prepared to face these consequences. Everyone has the right to ctiticise people's choices. Criticise, not obstruct them from making them.

    Following a particular religious dogma is a choice. Nothing more. A choice everyone is free to opt out from at will. And of course, there are consequences. If it;s criticism from some newspapers in form of cartoons then so be it. Such is the price of freedom of expression.

    Because the same laws that allow those cartoons to be published, allow you to follow your religion without fear of persecution or opression.

    Charlie Hebdo weren't racist. They were criticising certain choices that fellow members of their society have made. They were excercising their right for free speech and freedom of expression. A right that muslims are free to excercise themselves as well. No one will EVER stop a muslim from publishing a cartoon of Jesus.

    And this right is something that I personally hold very close to my heart. Especially as an Artist.

    Je suis Charlie.
    Great reply.
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    Let us just put the following in mind......
    France is the first western country to officially recognize the country of "Palestine" and it was one of the main country that called for a country for Palestinians........so why not for that reason this attack was committed in Paris supported by those who do not wish for a Palestinian country.
    You Know, i believe that those "Muslim" (they said so) terrorists are there to serve other people. they does not represent Islam in any way. They are just founded for the sake of ruining the image of Islam. Islam is a religion based on peace, love and mercy. All what these terrorists do is not rewarded religiously in any way in Islam but is rather a sin....a huge sin of killing and sedition
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    (Original post by Dandaman1)
    Simply because they happened to draw an 'offensive' image (taken somewhat out of context here, by the way) does not mean I won't stand with them on this issue, regardless of the fact they may have made some low blows in the past. They were murdered by Islamist barbarians warped by intolerant religious ideologies merely for expressing their (rather valid) opinions via harmless cartoon images. They did not deserve their fate. And, quite frankly, I am more disgusted by the contrarian, holier-than-thou, apologist weasels with the gall to call them fascist bigots in the wake of what just happened.

    Respectfully go **** yourselves.

    JE SUIS CHARLIE
    Agreed.

    There are a minority of people living in liberal democratic countries who enjoy the protection of their freedoms, but refuse for whatever reasons, to understand the principle of what Charlie Hebdo and the phrase Je suis Charlie stands for.

    That is their entitlement and countless millions died in WWII to protect them from tyranny and oppression and to openly express their views.

    It's when people feel disenfranchised and lose hope, when they look for something and someone else to blame which is where things descend. Religion has always picked up the damaged people as easy targets to indoctrinate. The radicals know they are easy targets and can therefore be manipulated to carry out their own non-secular political agendas.

    But aside from the outrage created by the murders and the attack on democracy itself, is the overwhelming sense from yesterday, that ordinary peaceful people of all races, creeds and cultures simply want to get along with each other and with their own lives.

    They are simply not interested in pushing political agendas

    The terrorists are not fit to share the same space as the dog excrement on a shoe. If there is any justice, burning in the fires of hell for all eternity is too good for them.

    Fortunately for them, God, hell and paradise do not exist so I guess having rid of them is the next best thing.
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    (Original post by IdeasForLife)
    It shows a muslim man using the Quran as (bullets going through it) with the caption "the Quran is **** it doesn't stop bulllets" after the Rabaa massacre in Egypt. Over 1000 Egyptians were killed by their own military whilst peacefully protesting.
    But the koran is **** and it doesn't stop bullets.
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    (Original post by wellholathere)
    It's hypocritical for France to be preaching freedom of expression when it comes to criticizing religious beliefs when they at the same time do not freedom of expression to allow religious representation.
    There are more decent ways to represent religion than dressing like a letterbox.
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    How dare someone decide to say bad things about a prophet. How DARE they???
    IT IS AN INSULT and it does therefore make us VERY ANGRY indeed.
    I AM NOT CHARLIE, an am a BRITISH citizen.
    yes, i agree that terrorist attacks shouldnt occur but there must have been a reason to why they occurred in the first place.
    Discriminating prophet (PBUH) is not taken very lightly. We love our prophet. and if you love someone then you simply cannot take this kind of attitude!! Are these people to cause chaos again?
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    (Original post by Skip_Snip)
    There are more decent ways to represent religion than dressing like a letterbox.
    what do you mean by the term letter box?
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    Anddd.... just to mention that prphet mohammad (pbuh) came as a mercy to the whole of mankind, not just for muslims. therefore we should all accept ALMIGHTY GOD's final messenger as our prophet. That way there will b peace. God willing.
    If you read up on the characteristics of the holy prophet PBUH you will never have the mouth to critisizse. He was perfect and is an example for us (us the whole of humanity).
    He came with the truth
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    (Original post by amenahussein)
    If you are defending Charlie, or doing this whole trend about 'I'm Charlie', you are basically defending antisemitism, racism, Islamophoba, bigotry and xenophobia.


    Posted from TSR Mobile
    No you're defending the right for people to have opinions and express them even if they conflict with your own.
    Many people disagree with the teachings of the bible, of the Quaran etc. but that doesn't mean people shouldn't be allowed to hold those views and more than it means people shouldn't be allowed to disagree with them.
    We have free speech and that includes saying things not everyone agrees with. Free speech doesn't work on the basis of 'if you've nothing nice to say don't say it' it work on say what you want to say have your opinions but don't expect everyone to like them.
    I am by no means defending some of Charlie Hebdo's actions as a newspaper but they were only exercising their right to voice their opinions.
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    (Original post by uberteknik)
    Agreed.

    There are a minority of people living in liberal democratic countries who enjoy the protection of their freedoms, but refuse for whatever reasons, to understand the principle of what Charlie Hebdo and the phrase Je suis Charlie stands for.

    That is their entitlement and countless millions died in WWII to protect them from tyranny and oppression and to openly express their views.

    It's when people feel disenfranchised and lose hope, when they look for something and someone else to blame which is where things descend. Religion has always picked up the damaged people as easy targets to indoctrinate. The radicals know they are easy targets and can therefore be manipulated to carry out their own non-secular political agendas.

    But aside from the outrage created by the murders and the attack on democracy itself, is the overwhelming sense from yesterday, that ordinary peaceful people of all races, creeds and cultures simply want to get along with each other and with their own lives.

    They are simply not interested in pushing political agendas

    The terrorists are not fit to share the same space as the dog excrement on a shoe. If there is any justice, burning in the fires of hell for all eternity is too good for them.

    Fortunately for them, God, hell and paradise do not exist so I guess having rid of them is the next best thing.
    terrorism is not part of any religion so

    a) there is no need to criticise muslims
    b) paradise and hell do exist
    c) If people cant get justice in this world, then it is BOUND to happen in the next world (the world which will be forever and will not last).
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    For those of you who do not believe in the next life , in one God and his messengers,,

    what will you do if all this was true???
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    (Original post by Asklepios)
    They're right. Muslims should stop hiding behind their ****ing Qurans and learn to think for themselves. Everything they do is literally "oh but the Koran says this"


    Posted from TSR Mobile
    That's true but I think that it's a bit offensive satirising a massacre for a peaceful rally with a dig at the religion.

    Would you do that if our government massacred Catholics, how do you think the likes of Ireland would find that.

    Either way I agree with the cartoons message but it's offensive.
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    (Original post by 08.f.poswal)
    How dare someone decide to say bad things about a prophet. How DARE they???
    Most posters on this site live in the UK, so they all dare very easily as British residents have fundamental rights to challenge religions. If you live in an Islamic country you may not have such tights as a lot of such states have not allowed their citizens to have the basic human rights set out by the United Nations.

    It sounds as if you blindly follow Islam without critically analysing it, though.
 
 
 
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