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    (Original post by welshieee)
    5. He lacks obvious man management skills which are vital to succeed at the top level
    Just chiming on this point - Ferguson was also a stubborn manager when it came to handling players.
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    (Original post by DiceTheSlice)
    Just chiming on this point - Ferguson was also a stubborn manager when it came to handling players.
    Ferguson was incredibly stubborn but he was still able to get the best out of very challenging players who needed guidance like Cristiano Ronaldo. We haven't had someone at the club with amazing man management skills since the days of Houllier, which is why Gerrard said he was like a father figure to him. Houllier also rejuvenated Melwood and got the youth system going again. For me personally, I believe Klopp is exactly what we need as we need someone who can make youngsters believe in themselves much more. I would rather not have someone like Ancelotti at the cub as they'll want a massive transfer kitty and if it doesn't pay off its going to come back to bite us in the long term.
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    (Original post by welshieee)
    Ferguson was incredibly stubborn but he was still able to get the best out of very challenging players who needed guidance like Cristiano Ronaldo. We haven't had someone at the club with amazing man management skills since the days of Houllier, which is why Gerrard said he was like a father figure to him. Houllier also rejuvenated Melwood and got the youth system going again. For me personally, I believe Klopp is exactly what we need as we need someone who can make youngsters believe in themselves much more. I would rather not have someone like Ancelotti at the cub as they'll want a massive transfer kitty and if it doesn't pay off its going to come back to bite us in the long term.
    By buying loads of **** young French players? Did any of his youth players have any impact at the club?

    Rafa revamped the youth setup at the club again during his tenure and it's still largely intact now.
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    (Original post by Zerforax)
    By buying loads of **** young French players? Did any of his youth players have any impact at the club?
    No. He was extremely influential in the creation and development of the Millennium Pavilion. He was also the person that gave Gerrard his first proper run in the side and helped him develop into a very good player because as Gerrard said, he was like a father figure to him. He was also pivotal in the development of Carragher and Owen. The redevelopment of Melwood during Houllier's tenure was incredibly important. Sadly, it hasn't been utilised to its full potential and poor decisions later on (I'm not pointing the finger at anyone in particular) have led to talent being lost. Here are some quotes about Houllier and his impact.

    The stamp of Houllier's personality is all over Liverpool and all over Melwood
    No stone was left unturned in Houllier's search to develop the perfect environment for modern footballers to flourish
    Houllier's all-consuming desire for involvement meant he was heavily involved in specific designs, from ensuring the views out of windows were pleasing on the eye to insisting there were no pillars in dressing rooms for players to "hide" behind.
    Pitches for training. Pitches for tactics. No stone was left unturned in Houllier's search to develop the perfect environment for modern footballers to flourish.
    We need someone like that, someone revolutionary in terms of the academy setup, at the club now, and for me that person is Jurgen Klopp, who has form for doing exactly that at his previous clubs.
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    (Original post by Zerforax)
    Rafa revamped the youth setup at the club again during his tenure and it's still largely intact now.
    That simply isn't true. Souness actually got the ball rolling and then Houllier took that to another level with a complete overhaul and input on the revolutionary changes that were made. Benitez merely inherited an incredible setup later on once the redevelopment had been complete. Even then, Benitez preferred to wheel and deal in the transfer market than bring through true young talents. Benitez has not been noted at all for his impact at Melwood and neither has any manager after him.

    Since the early days of Houllier (even Houllier changed tact late on - after bringing through the likes of Gerrard, Carragher and Owen he changed tact) the reality is that Melwood has been pretty neglected and this has had a profound impact on the quality that has been brought through the academy. The academy has been home to many hyped up players since but none of any real quality and even less so in terms of local talent. Players like Dani Pacheco and Suso were hyped so much it was embarrassing at times. The academy needs another revolutionary overhaul and Klopp is the man to do it.
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    (Original post by welshieee)
    No. He was extremely influential in the creation and development of the Millennium Pavilion. He was also the person that gave Gerrard his first proper run in the side and helped him develop into a very good player because as Gerrard said, he was like a father figure to him. He was also pivotal in the development of Carragher and Owen. The redevelopment of Melwood during Houllier's tenure was incredibly important. Sadly, it hasn't been utilised to its full potential and poor decisions later on (I'm not pointing the finger at anyone in particular) have led to talent being lost. Here are some quotes about Houllier and his impact.

    We need someone like that, someone revolutionary in terms of the academy setup, at the club now, and for me that person is Jurgen Klopp, who has form for doing exactly that at his previous clubs.
    The Millennium Pavilion just meant that youth players no longer trained at Melwood. No doubt there were better facilities but there was probably something lost in having that split. Indeed there's a study being done now to see if they can bring the youth players back together with the first team (whether at Melwood or elsewhere).

    I meant which French youth players that Houllier signed came good?

    Houllier may have given Gerrard his start but it was under Rafa that Gerrard was at the top of his game. Same with Carragher frankly - under Houllier (he did have those two serious injuries) but he was often playing at RB. When Rafa joined, he moved to CB and then became the player we know of today. Owen would've been a great player anywhere and Houllier didn't manage to do anything to stop Owen from running his contract down.

    Rafa Benitez wanted more involvement in the Academy - regularly people point to the fact that he signed tons of players but many were youth players but not signed to the academy so he had more control over them.

    Don't forget that Rafa managed to snare and appointed Jose Segura and Rodolfo Borrell (from Barcelona). While Borrell has been in charged, we've seen Raheem Sterling, Andre Wisdom, Suso, Jon Flanagan, Jack Robinson, Adam Morgan, Conor Coady, Jordon Ibe and Jerome Sinclair all making the transition from academy to first team.

    That is another element of Rafa's legacy. Houllier's was dismantled and improved on pretty quickly.

    I don't know where you've picked the quotes from. Source?
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    (Original post by Zerforax)
    The Millennium Pavilion just meant that youth players no longer trained at Melwood. No doubt there were better facilities but there was probably something lost in having that split. Indeed there's a study being done now to see if they can bring the youth players back together with the first team (whether at Melwood or elsewhere).
    And Houllier was incredibly influential in its creation. He was also influential in ensuring that the redevelopment went ahead in the first place because he was a true man manager, I'll admit not the greatest tactician, who identified that players needed a great and enjoyable environment to thrive in and achieve the best they can. No different from good schools creating a great environment to help students achieve their best potential.

    I meant which French youth players that Houllier signed came good?
    Honestly, very few, but you are mainly focusing on foreign talent. Rafa's record on this was absolutely abysmal as well. Sterling, who came in under his tenure, is probably the best player and he's English as well. Houllier did very well at identifying domestic talent and nurturing players to help them grow in confidence. He gave them the very opportunity they needed to prove themselves and believe and by God they took it, as they delivered multiple trophies in a few years.

    Houllier may have given Gerrard his start but it was under Rafa that Gerrard was at the top of his game. Same with Carragher frankly - under Houllier (he did have those two serious injuries) but he was often playing at RB. When Rafa joined, he moved to CB and then became the player we know of today. Owen would've been a great player anywhere and Houllier didn't manage to do anything to stop Owen from running his contract down.
    That's completely false. If it wasn't for Houllier bringing them through and giving them an opportunity whilst rejuvenating the youth setup then none of them would have had an opportunity to progress at the level they did. Rafa did help take Gerrard to the next level but without Houllier being a father figure to him earlier on the foundations would have never been laid for Rafa to do that. It is no different to Ronaldo. Ronaldo has arguably gone to the next level at Real Madrid, but there is no doubt without Ferguson's father like nurturing that Ronaldo wouldn't be half the player he is today. There's being a good manager on a tactical level and then there's being a good man manager and people's person. This is exactly what Houllier was. Benitez was by far the better tactician however and I'm not disputing that.

    Rafa Benitez wanted more involvement in the Academy - regularly people point to the fact that he signed tons of players but many were youth players but not signed to the academy so he had more control over them.

    Don't forget that Rafa managed to snare and appointed Jose Segura and Rodolfo Borrell (from Barcelona). While Borrell has been in charged, we've seen Raheem Sterling, Andre Wisdom, Suso, Jon Flanagan, Jack Robinson, Adam Morgan, Conor Coady, Jordon Ibe and Jerome Sinclair all making the transition from academy to first team.
    And very few of these have hit the heights expected of them. Sterling is the main one, Wisdom is not going to make it at a club like Liverpool as much as it pains me to say and Jordon Ibe was, for all its worth, only given his chance rather recently. None of the others have done anything of note. There is no point flooding the academy with players if you are never going to provide these players, hungry to prove themselves, with the opportunity to do so. For all the criticism I've given Rodgers, even he has done better with this in giving the likes of Gomez an opportunity to play in the first team and make his claim to that position long term.

    That is another element of Rafa's legacy. Houllier's was dismantled and improved on pretty quickly.
    Benitez simply built on Houllier's legacy pretty quickly. He utilised all of the foundations put in place by Houllier and built upon them with shrewd signings such as Luis Garcia and then used his tactical nous to help the club win a major trophy.

    I don't know where you've picked the quotes from. Source?
    Apologies. The quotes are from a BBC article I cannot find at the moment. If you want to know more in-depth just how important Houllier was at the club then read this. The person writing it hits the nail firmly on the head.

    http://www.thisisanfield.com/2010/09...s-anfield-era/
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    And for all it's worth, the most influential players during the Champions League finals, apart from Alonso, were Houllier signings. The goals were scored by Smicer, Gerrard and Alonso but Dietmar Hamann, brought in under Houllier, was extremely important in solidifying the midfield and allowing Gerrard to attack more. Hamann was essential in that role and when he came on the difference was there for all to see. The other most influential was Dudek, again a Houllier signing.

    Houllier's downfall were defensive tactics and making poor decisions during important times in games. This eventually led to his downfall. In almost every other aspect, he was a brilliant manager who laid the foundations at the club for many managers to come. Benitez was a brilliant tactician, and there is no disputing this, who understood how to get the best out of the side and setup that Houllier mostly put together. That is where Benitez excelled and he knew it, hence why he asked for more money to bring in the players for his system but unfortunately he had his hands tied by those above him.

    Houllier's weaknesses were mostly Benitez's strengths and Benitez's weaknesses were mostly Houllier's strengths. One was an exceptional man manager who nurtured talent and laid the foundations and the other was an incredible tactician that built the final product. Both were instrumental in our Champions League win over AC Milan for different reasons.
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    (Original post by welshieee)
    And Houllier was incredibly influential in its creation. He was also influential in ensuring that the redevelopment went ahead in the first place because he was a true man manager, I'll admit not the greatest tactician, who identified that players needed a great and enjoyable environment to thrive in and achieve the best they can. No different from good schools creating a great environment to help students achieve their best potential.
    Yea I can see he gets a lot of credit for it. I guess I was trying to make the point that the actual substance of a youth system is probably moreso the coaching set-up. Obviously you need great facilities too, which Houllier should get a lot of praise for, but what use are facilities without the coaches or players?

    Honestly, very few, but you are mainly focusing on foreign talent. Rafa's record on this was absolutely abysmal as well. Sterling, who came in under his tenure, is probably the best player and he's English as well. Houllier did very well at identifying domestic talent and nurturing players to help them grow in confidence. He gave them the very opportunity they needed to prove themselves and believe and by God they took it, as they delivered multiple trophies in a few years.
    I thought that was what Houllier was famed for in relation to youth set-up? A lot was made about his French connections and how he wanted the best and brightest french talent at Liverpool. Turned out a bit of a failed experiment.

    Houllier in some respects was fortunate to have Gerrard, Owen and Carragher come through. Of course he should get credit for helping them flourish but it was luck that they were in the catchment area. Same way SAF should get credit for nurturing the class of 92 but you can't credit him for them being there since it was catchment area.

    That's completely false. If it wasn't for Houllier bringing them through and giving them an opportunity whilst rejuvenating the youth setup then none of them would have had an opportunity to progress at the level they did. Rafa did help take Gerrard to the next level but without Houllier being a father figure to him earlier on the foundations would have never been laid for Rafa to do that. It is no different to Ronaldo. Ronaldo has arguably gone to the next level at Real Madrid, but there is no doubt without Ferguson's father like nurturing that Ronaldo wouldn't be half the player he is today. There's being a good manager on a tactical level and then there's being a good man manager and people's person. This is exactly what Houllier was. Benitez was by far the better tactician however and I'm not disputing that.
    Disagree on the first point but we'll probably never agree on it. There are certain players who are that top quality who would break through and make it to the top regardless of where they started. Imo Owen and Gerrard fall within that class. Carragher probably wouldn't have hit his heights without Houllier first and then Rafa.

    Again I'd still say that Ronaldo would've been one of the best in the world even if he hadn't gone to Man Utd. Maybe not the 2nd best/best player in the world. Look at Bale - who would you credit for him becoming a superstar?

    And very few of these have hit the heights expected of them. Sterling is the main one, Wisdom is not going to make it at a club like Liverpool as much as it pains me to say and Jordon Ibe was, for all its worth, only given his chance rather recently. None of the others have done anything of note. There is no point flooding the academy with players if you are never going to provide these players, hungry to prove themselves, with the opportunity to do so. For all the criticism I've given Rodgers, even he has done better with this in giving the likes of Gomez an opportunity to play in the first team and make his claim to that position long term.
    There's still a steady list of players who went on or will go on to have respectable careers even if not at Liverpool. Not sure where any of Houllier's youth players ended up.

    Benitez simply built on Houllier's legacy pretty quickly. He utilised all of the foundations put in place by Houllier and built upon them with shrewd signings such as Luis Garcia and then used his tactical nous to help the club win a major trophy.
    Rafa pretty much changed the entire squad from Houllier.I think Hyypia, Carragher, Gerrard, Finnan and Warnock were still there after 2-3 of years?

    [/QUOTE]Apologies. The quotes are from a BBC article I cannot find at the moment. If you want to know more in-depth just how important Houllier was at the club then read this. The person writing it hits the nail firmly on the head.

    http://www.thisisanfield.com/2010/09...s-anfield-era/[/QUOTE]

    Was a good read. Be interested to read a piece which focuses more on his impact behind the scenes.

    (Original post by welshieee)
    And for all it's worth, the most influential players during the Champions League finals, apart from Alonso, were Houllier signings. The goals were scored by Smicer, Gerrard and Alonso but Dietmar Hamann, brought in under Houllier, was extremely important in solidifying the midfield and allowing Gerrard to attack more. Hamann was essential in that role and when he came on the difference was there for all to see. The other most influential was Dudek, again a Houllier signing.
    Yet most got replaced pretty quickly.
    Reina replaced Dudek pretty much as soon as the CL was over.
    Hamann was replaced with Sissoko in 2006.
    Smicer was released in 2005 too.

    Houllier's downfall were defensive tactics and making poor decisions during important times in games. This eventually led to his downfall. In almost every other aspect, he was a brilliant manager who laid the foundations at the club for many managers to come. Benitez was a brilliant tactician, and there is no disputing this, who understood how to get the best out of the side and setup that Houllier mostly put together. That is where Benitez excelled and he knew it, hence why he asked for more money to bring in the players for his system but unfortunately he had his hands tied by those above him.
    Other than Millennium Pavilion, what foundations lasted the test of time? The team that Houllier left actually had little transfer value. Only Owen who was sold should've received a big fee but he left with a year on his contract. Everyone else sold for cheap or on frees. I think Baros was the only one who sold for more than £5mil.

    Houllier's weaknesses were mostly Benitez's strengths and Benitez's weaknesses were mostly Houllier's strengths. One was an exceptional man manager who nurtured talent and laid the foundations and the other was an incredible tactician that built the final product. Both were instrumental in our Champions League win over AC Milan for different reasons.
    Still think you're being unfair on Rafa since he pretty much had to lay some of his own foundations and did other parts like the youth coaching staff. There was a pretty big overhaul under Rafa's tenure.
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    To be fair to Houllier, he changed the absolute outlook and ethic of the club when he came in for Evans. Fair enough, they shared the job for a while, but that was farcical and tantamount to the club forcing Evans out to be honest.

    Houllier's influence can't be denied or underestimated. He was basically a Wenger-esque figure, in terms of what he did for the club's professionalism and furthering us off the field and on it. He may not have won the titles, and he was altogether too much of a man manager and not enough of a great tactician to ever truly succeed in the upper echelons of the game, but he was key nonetheless.

    The Istanbul victory was planted by the successes of 2000/01, too. The UEFA Cup was a highly sought after prize with a glowing reputation, and we bagged five trophies in a calendar year, including that one. That was a remarkable feat, even if other clubs pour scorn on it as a Mickey Mouse Treble.

    Players like Gerrard, Hyypia, Hamann et al cut their teeth on Thursday nights and victory in that competition during that season not only got us into the big one the season after, but it allowed our players to get a feel for European success and planted the seeds for the most monumental night of my - and Liverpool's - lifetime in 2005.

    It's a shame the Europa League is sneered at, really.
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    (Original post by Mackay)
    To be fair to Houllier, he changed the absolute outlook and ethic of the club when he came in for Evans. Fair enough, they shared the job for a while, but that was farcical and tantamount to the club forcing Evans out to be honest.

    Houllier's influence can't be denied or underestimated. He was basically a Wenger-esque figure, in terms of what he did for the club's professionalism and furthering us off the field and on it. He may not have won the titles, and he was altogether too much of a man manager and not enough of a great tactician to ever truly succeed in the upper echelons of the game, but he was key nonetheless.

    The Istanbul victory was planted by the successes of 2000/01, too. The UEFA Cup was a highly sought after prize with a glowing reputation, and we bagged five trophies in a calendar year, including that one. That was a remarkable feat, even if other clubs pour scorn on it as a Mickey Mouse Treble.

    Players like Gerrard, Hyypia, Hamann et al cut their teeth on Thursday nights and victory in that competition during that season not only got us into the big one the season after, but it allowed our players to get a feel for European success and planted the seeds for the most monumental night of my - and Liverpool's - lifetime in 2005.

    It's a shame the Europa League is sneered at, really.
    Excellent post.
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    The lies being spouted about Rafa's influence at the club are bordering on insane. The indirect shots weren't unnoticed either. I will respond to you in full when on computer.
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    If last season's results were repeated and an Italian team reached the Champions League final with two others reaching the Europa league semi-finals, with English teams struggling again, then Italy would jump ahead of England in the Uefa co-efficient rankings.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/34324794

    Is it time we start cheering for English clubs to do even worse in Europe? With 4 clubs mainly dominating the top 4 spots in Arsenal, Chelsea, Man Utd and Man City, losing the 4th spot would probably make at least one of them less competitive.

    For example, Arsenal's revenues would only be marginally better than ours if they had no CL football. If there is a rotation of those 4 teams dropping out of the CL then the best players will be more hesitant to join them which could also help us try and get closer to them.

    Flip side is that if it was only top 3 spots, it would suddenly be so much harder (and we're already finding it difficult) to get into the CL.
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    (Original post by Zerforax)
    If last season's results were repeated and an Italian team reached the Champions League final with two others reaching the Europa league semi-finals, with English teams struggling again, then Italy would jump ahead of England in the Uefa co-efficient rankings.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/34324794

    Is it time we start cheering for English clubs to do even worse in Europe? With 4 clubs mainly dominating the top 4 spots in Arsenal, Chelsea, Man Utd and Man City, losing the 4th spot would probably make at least one of them less competitive.

    For example, Arsenal's revenues would only be marginally better than ours if they had no CL football. If there is a rotation of those 4 teams dropping out of the CL then the best players will be more hesitant to join them which could also help us try and get closer to them.

    Flip side is that if it was only top 3 spots, it would suddenly be so much harder (and we're already finding it difficult) to get into the CL.
    I couldn't care less. I'll cheer for the other teams to fail even if it means we go down to 3 CL spots.
    Yeah it may make it harder for us to break back in but like you said it would also majorly affect one of the other top teams.

    It's likely we'll last this year with a better co-efficient though so maybe we should worry about this during the next campaign
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    (Original post by Lúcio)
    I couldn't care less. I'll cheer for the other teams to fail even if it means we go down to 3 CL spots.
    Yeah it may make it harder for us to break back in but like you said it would also majorly affect one of the other top teams.

    It's likely we'll last this year with a better co-efficient though so maybe we should worry about this during the next campaign
    That could work both ways though tbh, It would also mean the fourth placed team could likely end up in the Europa which could help you for the premier league given the way that it is scheduled but on the other hand you are also likely to be in the Europa too. Therefore, it will give to top 3 an advantage in the premier league especially if on Thursday nights you end up in Ukraine or Russia or kazakhstan for example.
    I think it would honestly favour the top 3 but affect the fourth and below teams badly and I can't see how it will help others tbh.
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    Liverpool goalkeeper Lawrence Vigouroux has resumed his loan spell with Swindon after apologising for paying a fine with one penny pieces.

    He was sent back to Anfield after using 5,000 coins to pay a £50 fine for turning up late to training.

    The 21-year-old has played nine games for Swindon after joining them on a season-long loan, with one clean sheet.
    "Lawrence is going to come back. He is very humble and very apologetic," boss Mark Cooper told BBC Wiltshire.

    Vigouroux attended Tuesday's 2-2 draw with Doncaster Rovers and could now come into contention for selection for Saturday's game at Blackpool.

    "He knows the way he behaved was wrong and he has been in the changing room after the game and apologised to the players," Cooper said.

    "He asked them if they wanted him back and they all said yes. Lawrence is an exceptional young goalkeeper and it's important he learns from this little mishap and it will benefit his career going forward."

    Asked about the nature of the issue, Cooper confirmed: "It did happen and I thought it was brilliant banter, but in the context it was the wrong way to go about it.

    "We are giving him a second chance and I'm sure he will be grateful."

    Did you know?
    One penny coins are only legal tender for amounts up to 20p. (Source: Royal Mint)

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/34400657
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    Sturridge to be rested v Sion, BR confrims.

    EDIT: He also confirms Rossiter will also feature.
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    (Original post by mr tim)
    Sturridge to be rested v Sion, BR confrims.

    EDIT: He also confirms Rossiter will also feature.
    No chance Sturridge was going to start against Sion. I'm a little surprised that we're not keeping him on the bench since we're playing at home since we do need the 3 points but I guess Origi and Ings will be in the side.

    Flip side is that Sion aren't doing that well in their league. Having said that, we were so bad against Carlisle in what should've been an easy win..
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    Anyone else going tomorrow night?

    Still loads of seats available, Europa League doesn't seem very popular.
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    I'm heading there tomorrow night, yeah. After Carlisle, it'll be my second game of the season - and I'm hoping it's a better one!

    I've heard talk of Emery being a possible successor to Rodgers, but I think this is massively problematic for FSG to justify. They'd be bringing in a man who is known for Europa League success, not league campaign success, but they are basically telling Rodgers that top four is the aim and to disregard any continental competition that isn't the CL.

    Likewise, I saw a piece by Oliver Kay today suggesting FSG weren't keen on Klopp because he's "too strong" a personalty. I'm unsure this is the case. They, of course, sounded out LVG as a director of football - and he's possibly the strongest personality in management right now, bar Mourinho.

    They also weren't afraid (according to reports) to target Ancelotti, and I doubt Rodgers is a yes man behind the scenes given the way he has created this brand in front of the media in a bid to get buy-in from his players.
 
 
 
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