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    (Original post by mojojojo101)
    If I am allowed my opinion, the football is as bad if not worse than last year, the players are continuously not performing anywhere near the level they are capable of and already the club has Mourinho's entirely toxic atmosphere surrounding it. The sooner Mourinho pisses off the better.
    Scholes brought up a good point today in the post match analysis.

    He said, if we sack Mourinho say in January if he continues on this bad streak who on earth are we going to get? The players are constantly having to adapt to new philosophies so we wouldn't be actually going anywhere and will be stuck in the constant cycle of getting a new manager, then he flops, and we are back at square 1 again.

    Right now the best we can do is be patient for a long time and accept we ARE an average team now that can't win the Europa League or challenge for the title. Wait till he has had 2-3 transfer windows and then let's see where Man Utd are then (that is if he doesn't **** up big time in which case he will be sacked). I think Mourinho is starting to realise this is a tougher job than he initially thought and he's also slowly learning to leave his ego out of it...you can see how he has reversed his decision on Schweinstieger and at least given Mkhitaryan some minutes today after blocking him out.

    He has to focus on playing players in the right positions and pick a starting XI that gets the best out of players like Pogba. Rashford shouldn't be on the wing too. As much as I hate him I believe he can turn this around but to do that he has to stop being such a stubborn **** and get his **** together which tbh knowing him he probably won't do but he proves people wrong so let's wait and see.
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    The poster who mentioned that the club has a deeper problem then the manager is spot on for me. I cant comment on how clubs are exactly run, but the way it feels to me is like this:

    Clubs like city/Chelsea/Real are built first, and organised around the management at the club. They have a focus, an identity, and a well organised way of working. The manager then slots in like a piece in a jigsaw puzzle.. they are just one of many cogs fitting into the machine, but the machine is always the same. They can come and go, and each will tweak slightly how the machine works, but largely it will remain the same.

    Clubs like United/Arsenal are built differently. The manager is the engine. Wenger and SAF provide all the power, focus and identity, behind them everyone else is much less important.. Sure there were directors who made huge differences, but even they came and went. The core identity was that of the manager, and their performance dictated how well the machine worked, rather then being just a small influence on how it works.

    You guys now are trying to be the first type of clubs, but your not ready or prepared to do so..
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    :rofl:

    Wtf you lost?

    How is this season any different to the previous two?
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    (Original post by trapking)
    LvG's press interviews were pure comedy >>>>>



    I'm dead.
    Yeah LVG had charisma, he wasn't just a whiny *****.
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    (Original post by mojojojo101)
    Because I come here delusionally trying to pretend that everything is fine you are questioning my status as a Man Utd fan.

    If I am allowed my opinion, the football is as bad if not worse than last year, the players are continuously not performing anywhere near the level they are capable of and already the club has Mourinho's entirely toxic atmosphere surrounding it. The sooner Mourinho pisses off the better.
    Yeah you're right, SAF is just being ridiculous and well the football quality was always going to take a dive, even if Van Gaal's football was atrocious at times.

    (Original post by trapking)
    Scholes brought up a good point today in the post match analysis.

    He said, if we sack Mourinho say in January if he continues on this bad streak who on earth are we going to get? The players are constantly having to adapt to new philosophies so we wouldn't be actually going anywhere and will be stuck in the constant cycle of getting a new manager, then he flops, and we are back at square 1 again.

    Right now the best we can do is be patient for a long time and accept we ARE an average team now that can't win the Europa League or challenge for the title. Wait till he has had 2-3 transfer windows and then let's see where Man Utd are then (that is if he doesn't **** up big time in which case he will be sacked). I think Mourinho is starting to realise this is a tougher job than he initially thought and he's also slowly learning to leave his ego out of it...you can see how he has reversed his decision on Schweinstieger and at least given Mkhitaryan some minutes today after blocking him out.

    He has to focus on playing players in the right positions and pick a starting XI that gets the best out of players like Pogba. Rashford shouldn't be on the wing too. As much as I hate him I believe he can turn this around but to do that he has to stop being such a stubborn **** and get his **** together which tbh knowing him he probably won't do but he proves people wrong so let's wait and see.
    Lol same **** was said about Chelsea last season when he dragged us into a relegation battle.

    TK I know you want to see light at the end of the pretty dark tunnel but why are you going to give a man like Mourinho 3 transfer windows when he's already spent 150M and you guys are playing even worse than last year?

    Also in what way are United an average team, look at the players you got.

    Bailly was at a team that came top 4 and is in the mix for the title at the moment.
    Mkhitaryan was at Dortmund and registered the most assists in the BuLi.
    Pogba was at Juventus, who were a game away from a treble in 13/14 and won the double again last season with him being a main man.
    Ibrahimovic has won like 10 league titles in his past 11 seasons, including La Liga.

    On top of that you have the likes of Shaw(who is rightly heralded as the best LB in the league), Mata(who looking at his Chelsea record was world class and the best no.10 in the world at the time), Martial(golden boy), Rashford and DDG.

    If you want Mourinho to sell half his team due to his inability to not piss the team off with ridiculous tactics be my guest.

    Also if Scholes says something just do the opposite.

    (Original post by SA-1)
    :rofl:

    Wtf you lost?

    How is this season any different to the previous two?
    Because they just bought the most expensive player in the world.

    How can you spend so much money consistently every season and still be **** it's astounding.
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    (Original post by fallen_acorns)
    The poster who mentioned that the club has a deeper problem then the manager is spot on for me. I cant comment on how clubs are exactly run, but the way it feels to me is like this:

    Clubs like city/Chelsea/Real are built first, and organised around the management at the club. They have a focus, an identity, and a well organised way of working. The manager then slots in like a piece in a jigsaw puzzle.. they are just one of many cogs fitting into the machine, but the machine is always the same. They can come and go, and each will tweak slightly how the machine works, but largely it will remain the same.

    Clubs like United/Arsenal are built differently. The manager is the engine. Wenger and SAF provide all the power, focus and identity, behind them everyone else is much less important.. Sure there were directors who made huge differences, but even they came and went. The core identity was that of the manager, and their performance dictated how well the machine worked, rather then being just a small influence on how it works.

    You guys now are trying to be the first type of clubs, but your not ready or prepared to do so..
    I doubt the structure is that bad but:-

    - The club hasn't adapted well since SAF left
    - Moyes tried to change too much
    - 3 new managers all with different ideas/plans (or lack thereof) has meant more short terms decisions or the longer term ones not followed properly

    Just need to find the right manager to fix it. Issue for the club now is whether Mourinho is that man or if they should keep looking.
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    (Original post by Zerforax)
    I doubt the structure is that bad but:-

    - The club hasn't adapted well since SAF left
    - Moyes tried to change too much
    - 3 new managers all with different ideas/plans (or lack thereof) has meant more short terms decisions or the longer term ones not followed properly

    Just need to find the right manager to fix it. Issue for the club now is whether Mourinho is that man or if they should keep looking.
    For me, there are structural issues. Since Gill left the club does fell more and more like a money making machine as opposed to a sports team. That is despite our absolutely ridiculous transfer policy for the last 3 years which seems to owe more to Woodword proving how big is **** is than good business or footballing sense. I dislike how we have allowed City to set up one of Europes best academy's on our doorstep and done **** all about it, I dislike the refusal to move into the womens game and I dislike the way SAF casts an overbearing shadow over everything.

    A manager change somethings, but the overall club mentality and ethos comes from higher up and thats where there are failings (as well as with each of the last 3 managers).
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    They got david moyes ffs.

    Lvg is a guy who clearly needs time to implement his plans and you usually see results of his growth in 3 years because he uses youth players and integrates them to the first team heck he even said his strength is building for other managers.

    So you then see the problem is clearly the managerial appointments. honestly the board can be to blame for that but not much else when they've spent almost 500m since saf left on players.

    Take it this way. a managerial appointment isnt as simple as appoint a manager who wins a lot of trophies or does well with weaker sides...
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    Just thought I'd chip in here and give my 2 cents
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    (Original post by mojojojo101)
    For me, there are structural issues. Since Gill left the club does fell more and more like a money making machine as opposed to a sports team. That is despite our absolutely ridiculous transfer policy for the last 3 years which seems to owe more to Woodword proving how big is **** is than good business or footballing sense. I dislike how we have allowed City to set up one of Europes best academy's on our doorstep and done **** all about it, I dislike the refusal to move into the womens game and I dislike the way SAF casts an overbearing shadow over everything.

    A manager change somethings, but the overall club mentality and ethos comes from higher up and thats where there are failings (as well as with each of the last 3 managers).
    Yea Gill and SAF leaving at the same time wasn't ideal. I think the club is just going to keep continuing to make money. SAF didn't leave the squad in the best of shapes and Moyes/Woodword didn't help. Finishing outside of CL and EL that year made it harder to then rectify the squad.

    Now since then each manager is trying to take a short cut by buying "the best" rather than building up slowly. Look how quickly some players are coming in and falling out of fashion.

    Unfortunately as a club Man Utd's size, there's no breathing space to try and rebuild slowly.
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    (Original post by Zerforax)
    Yea Gill and SAF leaving at the same time wasn't ideal. I think the club is just going to keep continuing to make money. SAF didn't leave the squad in the best of shapes and Moyes/Woodword didn't help. Finishing outside of CL and EL that year made it harder to then rectify the squad.

    Now since then each manager is trying to take a short cut by buying "the best" rather than building up slowly. Look how quickly some players are coming in and falling out of fashion.

    Unfortunately as a club Man Utd's size, there's no breathing space to try and rebuild slowly.
    I think its unfair to put all the blame on the managers for our ridiculous recruitment recently. Its well known Woodward has wanted to 'prove' himself with a big transfer and so far he has got di Maria, who never wanted to be here, chased Ramos all summer to no avail and brought in Martial and Pogba by virtue of spending way, way over the market rate (If Florentino Perez is being priced out, youve got a big problem).

    There is so little breathing space at United true, what that means is that whoever comes in,their first and mkst important task is to MAKE some. They have to build good relations with the players, the staff and most importantly the fans, in essence the complete opposite of what Mourinho is doing. Next up the club has to come up with a clear and specific end point as well as a path as to how that will be achieved, it sounds beyond basic, but clearly it isnt happening now. That would be enough for me at this point, a clear plan accross the club with a manager who is demonstrably making the team get better.

    I guess what it comes down to in the end is whether or not I trust the club hierachy to make good desicions, the answer to that is an absolute, categorical NO.
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    The harsh reality is 90% of the squad is not good enough and will be difficult to shift due to huge wages.

    Think of it this way, how many of them would get into another top club in the Premier League? Fellaini, Lingard & Young are players you'd expect to see at Watford, not Manchester United. Blind, Rojo & Valencia would struggle to get into most midtable teams, Smalling is average, Darmian is average, Memphis is average, Schneiderlin is average, Carrick & Schweinsteiger are aging veterans, Rooney is completely finished, Jones is permanently injured. That's most of the squad and it's going to take a while to replace all of them - they're midtable players that in many cases we've paid way over the odds for. Who's going to want to take over Young's £100k pw or pay the £15m we'd want for Memphis?

    Sometimes you get average players who fit in well to a good team. Look at Liverpool, on paper our squad is miles better than theirs but Klopp has got them working as a team and has bought players to fit into how he wants to play. Our recruitment is just going for the "big names" with absolutely no thought given as to how they fit in.

    Mourinho has no idea what team to pick or how to set them up. He looks completely demoralised and unable to motivate them either. We could sign Hazard & Aguero in January and they'd struggle to perform in this team.

    This all stems from the decision to appoint Moyes which has set the club back at least 10 years, possibly more.




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    But all of those players mentioned are squad players not first team. would ivanovic get into top clubs, would Fernando get into top sides, would mikel get into top sides, would navas get into top sides regularly, would can or wijnaldum get into other top sides regularly?

    You are mistaking squad players for key players, take it this way you said klopp could get a team with a high amount of squad players to title challenge. Its about getting a working system that makes the most out of a group of players. as shown by conte, pep, klopp and even wenger this season.

    A big part of mourinho was how he was a reactive manager, but he seems unwilling to adapt for some reason...
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    I actually might just become a Man City fan... This is just absolute dogshit.... If you can't bet them, join them?
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    (Original post by bammy jastard 27)
    Lol same **** was said about Chelsea last season when he dragged us into a relegation battle.

    TK I know you want to see light at the end of the pretty dark tunnel but why are you going to give a man like Mourinho 3 transfer windows when he's already spent 150M and you guys are playing even worse than last year?

    Also in what way are United an average team, look at the players you got.

    Bailly was at a team that came top 4 and is in the mix for the title at the moment.
    Mkhitaryan was at Dortmund and registered the most assists in the BuLi.
    Pogba was at Juventus, who were a game away from a treble in 13/14 and won the double again last season with him being a main man.
    Ibrahimovic has won like 10 league titles in his past 11 seasons, including La Liga.

    On top of that you have the likes of Shaw(who is rightly heralded as the best LB in the league), Mata(who looking at his Chelsea record was world class and the best no.10 in the world at the time), Martial(golden boy), Rashford and DDG.

    If you want Mourinho to sell half his team due to his inability to not piss the team off with ridiculous tactics be my guest.

    Also if Scholes says something just do the opposite.
    Yeah I agree with some of what you've said I was just paraphrasing what Scholesy said in post match analysis! With Mourinho there is no light at the end of the tunnel it always ends in a ****ing train wreck. Also we are average in the sense that there is not a good enough TEAM CHEMISTRY like say Liverpool or Arsenal (there is no balance in the starting lineups). Doesn't matter about the individuals if we can't play as a team.

    I already said a few pages back I don't think Mourinho will survive here. He's a stubborn manager and he has no charisma. He has already brought his toxic atmosphere to United and i can only see it getting worse. If we don't win against Swansea we are in big trouble.

    The thing I liked about LvG was that he had a formula that worked (even tho we hated it..whereas mourinho rn is clueless), yes the football was frustrating to watch but the players were starting to show signs of gelling to his philosophy and players like Martial, Shaw and Bastian really flourished! He also did a very good job with the youth....if it wasn't for Van Gaal giving Rashford a chance he would not be as famous as he is now. One of the things I didn't like about LvG though was that he was stubborn and always persisted with Rooney and Fellaini even when they had poor games...they were undroppable. It's hard to say though whether we would have improved in the long term but Van Gaal didn't do that much of a bad job at all!
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    (Original post by sr90)

    Sometimes you get average players who fit in well to a good team. Look at Liverpool, on paper our squad is miles better than theirs but Klopp has got them working as a team and has bought players to fit into how he wants to play. Our recruitment is just going for the "big names" with absolutely no thought given as to how they fit in.
    Yup this is exactly my point to Jam! The big names don't matter if they can't play as a team...sure you will get occasional moments of brilliance but team chemistry is far more important and its something we don't have much of at all.

    We are ****ed tbh
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    Lol at the love in with LVG, the guy was described as toxic not 6 months ago and accused of playing anti-football

    smh :lol:
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    (Original post by mojojojo101)
    Because I come here delusionally trying to pretend that everything is fine you are questioning my status as a Man Utd fan.

    If I am allowed my opinion, the football is as bad if not worse than last year, the players are continuously not performing anywhere near the level they are capable of and already the club has Mourinho's entirely toxic atmosphere surrounding it. The sooner Mourinho pisses off the better.
    And then what? Who do we hire then?

    We can't keep going through manager, after manager. It clearly isn't working. Our problem is that we've thrown money at the club and brought in mediocrity. I would say since Fergie left the good players we have signed are

    Mata, Shaw, Herrera, Blind, Martial, Schneiderlin (although he's not shown his quality), Di Maria (but LVG thought Ashley Young was better).

    All of Mourinho's signings are quality. Zlatan has missed a few sitters but you can't doubt his qualities. The chances he has missed is not down to his age, you don't forget how to play football just because you get older (unless you are Wayne Rooney

    (Original post by bammy jastard 27)
    Yeah you're right, SAF is just being ridiculous and well the football quality was always going to take a dive, even if Van Gaal's football was atrocious at times.


    Lol same **** was said about Chelsea last season when he dragged us into a relegation battle.

    TK I know you want to see light at the end of the pretty dark tunnel but why are you going to give a man like Mourinho 3 transfer windows when he's already spent 150M and you guys are playing even worse than last year?

    Also in what way are United an average team, look at the players you got.

    Bailly was at a team that came top 4 and is in the mix for the title at the moment.
    Mkhitaryan was at Dortmund and registered the most assists in the BuLi.
    Pogba was at Juventus, who were a game away from a treble in 13/14 and won the double again last season with him being a main man.
    Ibrahimovic has won like 10 league titles in his past 11 seasons, including La Liga.

    On top of that you have the likes of Shaw(who is rightly heralded as the best LB in the league), Mata(who looking at his Chelsea record was world class and the best no.10 in the world at the time), Martial(golden boy), Rashford and DDG.

    If you want Mourinho to sell half his team due to his inability to not piss the team off with ridiculous tactics be my guest.

    Also if Scholes says something just do the opposite.



    Because they just bought the most expensive player in the world.

    How can you spend so much money consistently every season and still be **** it's astounding.
    Jam, I like you, you seem like a cool guy

    But no-one cares about Chelsea in 2015.

    (Original post by sr90)
    The harsh reality is 90% of the squad is not good enough and will be difficult to shift due to huge wages.

    Think of it this way, how many of them would get into another top club in the Premier League? Fellaini, Lingard & Young are players you'd expect to see at Watford, not Manchester United. Blind, Rojo & Valencia would struggle to get into most midtable teams, Smalling is average, Darmian is average, Memphis is average, Schneiderlin is average, Carrick & Schweinsteiger are aging veterans, Rooney is completely finished, Jones is permanently injured. That's most of the squad and it's going to take a while to replace all of them - they're midtable players that in many cases we've paid way over the odds for. Who's going to want to take over Young's £100k pw or pay the £15m we'd want for Memphis?

    Sometimes you get average players who fit in well to a good team. Look at Liverpool, on paper our squad is miles better than theirs but Klopp has got them working as a team and has bought players to fit into how he wants to play. Our recruitment is just going for the "big names" with absolutely no thought given as to how they fit in.

    Mourinho has no idea what team to pick or how to set them up. He looks completely demoralised and unable to motivate them either. We could sign Hazard & Aguero in January and they'd struggle to perform in this team.

    This all stems from the decision to appoint Moyes which has set the club back at least 10 years, possibly more.
    Disagree that Lingard and Blind aren't good enough, I'm pretty sure you said once you used to play football to a fairly decent standard. I thought someone who played ball would appreciate good footballers when they see them. Lingard isn't first 11 week in, week out quality, but he has a place in this squad.

    Smalling I would usually defend but I just look at him everytime we concede and he just looks like he's confused. Not sure he has the mentality. He certainly has the ability.
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    The LVG revisionism in this thread is unreal. Considering I spend much of his tenure defending him and his decision in this thread I well remember.

    The worrying thing about Jose is how he's reacting to problems, and how he's dealing with the media. This thread being case in point he's making a difficult situation seem like a crisis, and putting his own position in danger by giving off the impression he's not in control. City have had a poor run of late too but Pep never started pointing the fingers like there was a problem. Flat out refusal to say he would change anything after losing to us. Jose is pointing fingers right away. The finger point is the admission of a problem, and when it happens more than once its admitting you can't fix the problem.

    Yesterday we go a goal behind to a wondergoal. It happens and should have zero impact on your approach to the game. Jose, our defensive manager ends up playing 4 strikers and effectively 2 AM's? If you are Fenebache sitting on a one goal lead which type of set up would you fancy countering against? Bottom line is he choked. Same thing he did against Chelsea with the set up, and tbh had we conceded same thing we would be saying against Liverpool.

    The most worrying thing, isn't the squad or even how the team is playing, it the fact our manager doesn't seem to have confidence in himself. He's choked under pressure at almost all turns this season, and now the pressure is on from here on out.

    His inability to play a balance squad for 90 mins without second guessing himself or the team is really worrying.
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    (Original post by fallen_acorns)
    The poster who mentioned that the club has a deeper problem then the manager is spot on for me. I cant comment on how clubs are exactly run, but the way it feels to me is like this:

    Clubs like city/Chelsea/Real are built first, and organised around the management at the club. They have a focus, an identity, and a well organised way of working. The manager then slots in like a piece in a jigsaw puzzle.. they are just one of many cogs fitting into the machine, but the machine is always the same. They can come and go, and each will tweak slightly how the machine works, but largely it will remain the same.

    Clubs like United/Arsenal are built differently. The manager is the engine. Wenger and SAF provide all the power, focus and identity, behind them everyone else is much less important.. Sure there were directors who made huge differences, but even they came and went. The core identity was that of the manager, and their performance dictated how well the machine worked, rather then being just a small influence on how it works.

    You guys now are trying to be the first type of clubs, but your not ready or prepared to do so..
    Yeah it was me that said that. Completely agree with the machine staying the same. I really don't see how sacking Mourinho and appointing another manager will solve things.
 
 
 
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