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    (Original post by 419)
    But, have we really had the money to spend though? Even the supposedly 120m we have as bank reserve isn't really available to him.
    Look at how many players we supposedly nearly signed and it tells you there was money there. Its well known we woulda got Xabi Alonso if Gareth Barry went Liverpool and we were a few hundred grand off Pepe Reina before too to name 2 actual proper near misses not the Ibra/Ronaldo speculation. I think it is perfectly plausible and quite likely that Wenger wanted to prove everyone wrong with the youth vanity project that he stubbornly refused to add in the couple of older heads we were crying out for and sat on cash
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    (Original post by 419)
    But, have we really had the money to spend though? Even the supposedly 120m we have as bank reserve isn't really available to him.

    The biggest problem is that people are comparing us to oligarch/ sheikhs backed an power house team. If people don't realise how massive a task the emirates is, look at spurs despite been in a better financial situation than we were at the beginning of emirates, and with some government funding, they're still struggling to begin work on their stadium.
    Come to think about it 20 mil is not big money...or is it just big money for wenger? Are arsenal fans seriously happy? Arsenal could of got Falcao if that reported 120 mil war chest is true..
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    (Original post by alexsong)
    Have you ever gone into a season thinking we dont have one of the best 4/5 squads in the league ? Or thinking you would be happy with 5th ? Top 4 is par mate
    Sort of a circular argument, Wenger assembled those squads to begin with to put us in the position of having one of the best squads. Wenger had no cash and he's done remarkably in the transfer market to get these squads together for peanuts. Few years back we had Denilson, Eboue, Bendtner, Almunia etc starting most games as well dont forget so AW has had to cover up the cracks big time. I'm sure he knew alot of the players he had were 2-bit but he just got on with it and ploughed through it.

    I would agree 100% if there was no financial contraints and Wenger was going out spending 50m every summer just to finish top4 but he hasnt has he?

    Im going to be much harsher on Wenger now we're in the money. If we get Higuain and a few others then he'll have questions to answer if we end up with nothing but CL qual by next May.
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    (Original post by 419)
    But, have we really had the money to spend though? Even the supposedly 120m we have as bank reserve isn't really available to him.
    You haven't had the money but you had a team that can beat birmingham and beat united when they're playing with 7 defenders in their first 11. Last season was an OK season despite an embarrasing defeat or two(happens to all teams anyway look at city) and the season before was a bit below par due to that horrendous start but now wenger isn't under any constraints financially so he needs to deliver but at least there's been a steady progression the past 2 seasons despite losing key players
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    (Original post by alexsong)
    Its nice to go on about how many straight years we got in the CL but if you break it down it holds no water in terms of being grounds for praise
    Arsenal really seriously suffered last season we were embarrassed by Bradford, Blackburn and Bayern. Then we lose the NLD, 7 points away from Spurs and out of the CL places. Yet we hold our nerve and turn it around. This current Arsenal squad has been touted as one of the worst Arsene has assembled but he still get results. You don't understand the importance of being in the CL.
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    (Original post by sevchenko)
    Arsenal really seriously suffered last season we were embarrassed by Bradford, Blackburn and Bayern. Then we lose the NLD, 7 points away from Spurs and out of the CL places. Yet we hold our nerve and turn it around. This current Arsenal squad has been touted as one of the worst Arsene has assembled but he still get results. You don't understand the importance of being in the CL.
    So what you are saying is our players underperformed and didn't get up for it till they knew they had to and there was no room for error and thats a reason to praise the manager ? I know all about the finances and the importance of the CL I just don't think it takes an amazing superhuman job like people make out to get Arsenal into the top 4 of the premier league personally
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    (Original post by Zürich)
    Sort of a circular argument, Wenger assembled those squads to begin with to put us in the position of having one of the best squads. Wenger had no cash and he's done remarkably in the transfer market to get these squads together for peanuts. Few years back we had Denilson, Eboue, Bendtner, Almunia etc starting most games as well dont forget so AW has had to cover up the cracks big time. I'm sure he knew alot of the players he had were 2-bit but he just got on with it and ploughed through it.

    I would agree 100% if there was no financial contraints and Wenger was going out spending 50m every summer just to finish top4 but he hasnt has he?

    Im going to be much harsher on Wenger now we're in the money. If we get Higuain and a few others then he'll have questions to answer if we end up with nothing but CL qual by next May.
    Yeah fair points but when you consider the starting point of the invincibles the strength of squad isn't as impressive. It comes down to how much money was available as I've said I think he sat on some at times but its difficult to really know for sure and then you look at how he invested too much faith in some of the youth projects who didnt pan out and overpaid them and theres drawbacks, overall I think hes done pretty well with the squad and getting us in the top 4 but as I said I don't think its as amazing of a job as people like to make out
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    (Original post by alexsong)
    Yeah fair points but when you consider the starting point of the invincibles the strength of squad isn't as impressive. It comes down to how much money was available as I've said I think he sat on some at times but its difficult to really know for sure and then you look at how he invested too much faith in some of the youth projects who didnt pan out and overpaid them and theres drawbacks, overall I think hes done pretty well with the squad and getting us in the top 4 but as I said I don't think its as amazing of a job as people like to make out
    Bare in mind AW doesn't need the Arsenal job. Bayern, Real Madrid and PSG have all been after him but he stayed loyal to Arsenal.
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    (Original post by alexsong)
    Yeah fair points but when you consider the starting point of the invincibles the strength of squad isn't as impressive. It comes down to how much money was available as I've said I think he sat on some at times but its difficult to really know for sure and then you look at how he invested too much faith in some of the youth projects who didnt pan out and overpaid them and theres drawbacks, overall I think hes done pretty well with the squad and getting us in the top 4 but as I said I don't think its as amazing of a job as people like to make out
    I agree that Wenger's youth project was a bit of a vanity project and one thing about him that really grates me is how he seems to care more about player development than Arsenal at times. Like when RVP left, he was still singing his praises and you could tell he was proud that he was scoring for fun for Utd(hugging him at OT etc when he should have blanked him or worse). Would like him to be more ruthless and less involved as players have used him and he doesnt seem to care.

    As I say, no more excuses for Wenger. He'll be treated like any other manager from now on with the money he has to spend.
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    (Original post by alexsong)
    Yeah fair points but when you consider the starting point of the invincibles the strength of squad isn't as impressive. It comes down to how much money was available as I've said I think he sat on some at times but its difficult to really know for sure and then you look at how he invested too much faith in some of the youth projects who didnt pan out and overpaid them and theres drawbacks, overall I think hes done pretty well with the squad and getting us in the top 4 but as I said I don't think its as amazing of a job as people like to make out
    But, he's always been quite brutal on our youths- similar to what is happening now in fact. Except for playing them in LC, we haven't really used them much apart from Wilshere, Walcott, Gibbs, Sczc. We have a poor turnover of youths appearing in our teams.

    Justin Hoyte is an example that comes to mind- he was pretty much a steadfast member of our team at and was pretty good value of money imo but when still went out to buy Sagna. He pretty much gave up on Flamini until Gilberto decided to play in Copa America.

    Wenger doesn't scream to me someone that's conceited enough to want to vindicated by anyone. Unless we're talking about unproven players from nowhere tat's something else.

    (Original post by jam277)
    You haven't had the money but you had a team that can beat birmingham and beat united when they're playing with 7 defenders in their first 11. Last season was an OK season despite an embarrasing defeat or two(happens to all teams anyway look at city) and the season before was a bit below par due to that horrendous start but now wenger isn't under any constraints financially so he needs to deliver but at least there's been a steady progression the past 2 seasons despite losing key players
    You're digressing here jam.
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    (Original post by sevchenko)
    Bare in mind AW doesn't need the Arsenal job. Bayern, Real Madrid and PSG have all been after him but he stayed loyal to Arsenal.
    Is this sevchenko from arsenal online
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    (Original post by alexsong)
    Yeah fair points but when you consider the starting point of the invincibles the strength of squad isn't as impressive. It comes down to how much money was available as I've said I think he sat on some at times but its difficult to really know for sure and then you look at how he invested too much faith in some of the youth projects who didnt pan out and overpaid them and theres drawbacks, overall I think hes done pretty well with the squad and getting us in the top 4 but as I said I don't think its as amazing of a job as people like to make out
    What to you is an amazing job then? The kind that sees the manager spend ludicrous amounts and scrape the title like season with Mancini? Granted Mancini presented an opportunity for the club but really do you think he could perform even a fraction of that with the kind of funds we had? Every manager has bought players that have flopped for some reason or other so its not really fair on Wenger if you single him out. The fact that we have achieved par as you say every season is a good indication of the strength of our squad. I'm not sure there are many other managers who would have achieved par given our circumstances.
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    I was reading a book on Wenger earlier today and there's a section in it which quotes Tony Adams as saying were it not for the fact that we're a London club, we would have won more titles than we have done, because of the all the derbies we('ve) have/had to play each season. I'd never really thought about it, to be honest, but it makes sense.
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    (Original post by niceguy95)
    Is this sevchenko from arsenal online
    Yea Sev is a pretty rare name
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    (Original post by jibberish)
    What to you is an amazing job then? The kind that sees the manager spend ludicrous amounts and scrape the title like season with Mancini? Granted Mancini presented an opportunity for the club but really do you think he could perform even a fraction of that with the kind of funds we had? Every manager has bought players that have flopped for some reason or other so its not really fair on Wenger if you single him out. The fact that we have achieved par as you say every season is a good indication of the strength of our squad. I'm not sure there are many other managers who would have achieved par given our circumstances.
    Come on mate you aren't really trying to defend Wenger by banging on about Roberto Mancini with a sprinkling of hyperbole are you ? Read my other posts on the last 2 pages you will see my criticisms of him which tells you why I dont class it as an amazing job
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    (Original post by DisconcertingWink1)
    I was reading a book on Wenger earlier today and there's a section in it which quotes Tony Adams as saying were it not for the fact that we're a London club, we would have won more titles than we have done, because of the all the derbies we('ve) have/had to play each season. I'd never really thought about it, to be honest, but it makes sense.
    Fulham, West Ham, Palace, QPR are just like any other game tbh. Only Spurs/Chelsea can be classed as pure derby matches and if anything it helps that we have so little to travel when other clubs need to come all the way to London every month. I guess sometimes West Ham can get a bit spicy but most WHU fans I've spoken to have nothing against Arsenal.

    Tony Adams is a great guy and an Arsenal legend, but he's a bit light between the ears. There's a reason his coaching career was a disaster.
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    (Original post by 419)
    Wenger doesn't scream to me someone that's conceited enough to want to vindicated by anyone. Unless we're talking about unproven players from nowhere tat's something else.



    You're digressing here jam.
    Yeah by the project I mean the idea he was gonna build an all conquering side out of youth and cheap players, he had a good go at it to be fair and developed some quality players in the process but look at the 09-10 squad and imagine a couple of more experienced players in there and we are talking about a title challenge, I reckon he could have found the money to bring in those players if he really wanted but he wanted to do it his way and its a fairly prevelant theory (this is around the time we had near misses on reina and alonso too which as I said makes me think there was money).
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    (Original post by alexsong)
    Come on mate you aren't really trying to defend Wenger by banging on about Roberto Mancini with a sprinkling of hyperbole are you ? Read my other posts on the last 2 pages you will see my criticisms of him which tells you why I dont class it as an amazing job
    I wasn't really comparing the two managers as you seem to think. I was just trying to understand what you expect from Wenger or any other manager for that matter especially considering the exceptional circumstances that faced our club. The bottom line is that we have come through a very difficult time unscathed and now is the time to push on for trophies as the stadium debt has almost been covered. It could have gone much worse and I'm sure all of us were guilty at some point of blaming Wenger for some near escapes but I for one can't think of another manager better suited for the circumstances we were facing. I'm sure we can win something next season and if we don't, it might then be when we should look to point a finger at our manager.
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    (Original post by jibberish)
    I wasn't really comparing the two managers as you seem to think. I was just trying to understand what you expect from Wenger or any other manager for that matter especially considering the exceptional circumstances that faced our club. The bottom line is that we have come through a very difficult time unscathed and now is the time to push on for trophies as the stadium debt has almost been covered. It could have gone much worse and I'm sure all of us were guilty at some point of blaming Wenger for some near escapes but I for one can't think of another manager better suited for the circumstances we were facing. I'm sure we can win something next season and if we don't, it might then be when we should look to point a finger at our manager.
    Its funny how when you question Wenger people always get patronising about it (sevchenko saying I dont understand the importance of the CL when I fully do and you banging on about Mancini to me as if he is my managerial idol and I don't really get it when I think hes a **** manager and have said so elsewhere) it is as if you have just dissed their nan, I think people get too emotional about it to look at it objectively

    As I said go back and look at the whole argument you will see why I disagree with that narrative, it makes a nice sound bite when Gary Neville starts going on about it on Sky but it oversimplifies everything. I think you can either accept that narrative and hail Wenger as some miracle worker which most people will because hes a good bloke and hes our guy and we all love and respect him o you can look at the last few years more closely and realise thats not quite the case which is what I do.
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    (Original post by alexsong)
    Its funny how when you question Wenger people always get patronising about it (sevchenko saying I dont understand the importance of the CL when I fully do and you banging on about Mancini to me as if he is my managerial idol and I don't really get it when I think hes a **** manager and have said so elsewhere) it is as if you have just dissed their nan, I think people get too emotional about it to look at it objectively

    As I said go back and look at the whole argument you will see why I disagree with that narrative, it makes a nice sound bite when Gary Neville starts going on about it on Sky but it oversimplifies everything. I think you can either accept that narrative and hail Wenger as some miracle worker which most people will because hes a good bloke and hes our guy and we all love and respect him o you can look at the last few years more closely and realise thats not quite the case which is what I do.
    Im sorry if my argument came across as if I worship Wenger or follow him blindly. That is not the case at all. Looking at it completely objectively, I will agree to some extent with you in that I think he has made some poor decisions and has got us in some horrible situations but the argument you present just greatly exaggerates his involvement. If we didn't win any trophies its the fault of the players and the board as much as it is the managers. You can't on the one hand talk about avoiding oversimplification and then say place all the blame on Wenger. Losing to Bradford and Birmingham in my opinion has to do with the players more than the manager. There is only so much a manager can do in that situation. As for our league position, again it comes down to the players- they are all very capable but lacked confidence especially last season and when they finally had self-belief it was too late. Again you can point the finger at Wenger for this and it is his up to him to a certain extent but we have done well enough and there will always be if's and but's.
 
 
 
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