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    I know I'm a bit late to this, but I'd just like my tuppence.

    (Original post by Rakas21)
    I'm open minded but i'll admit that i don't understand it. To me it's a mental illness which should not be encouraged.

    Perhaps that will change in time but for now, penis=man and vagina=woman.
    Firstly, you can't 'encourage' a mental illness. Secondly, even if transsexuality is a mental illness/syndrome/whatever - and, for the record, in my mind there's nothing wrong or negative about it being labelled as such - then surely the best way to go about 'treating' it is the way which is going to allow the person to live a normal life and flourish just like anyone else. That isn't trying to persuade them that their gender is the one associated with the reproductive organs they were born with, because that won't work and will simply leave the person more conflicted and mentally ****ed up than they were to start with. It's allowing them to live as the gender they identify with, respecting that, and eventually surgically modifying their body to fit.

    There's also an issue of liberty here for me. I have a libertarian streak and believe that this is a free country, so to a certain extent people should be able to live their lives how they want as long as they're within their means and are not harming anyone else or restricting anyone else's liberty. Therefore, if someone was assigned male at birth but wishes to live as a female, I strongly believe that that should be respected and that they should not face any discrimination or be made to feel uncomfortable because of it.

    And as for calling someone 'he' when they've clearly indicated a preference for 'she' - well, I'm sorry, but that's just downright rude.
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    To clarify if that seemed an outburst, gender is masculine, feminine and pretty much anywhere inbetween, it's how we are perceived and expected to act by society. We attach female and feminine to those with a vagina, and male and masculine to those with a penis. At birth that is.

    However not everyone feels this is accurate, that is how I'd describe transgender, although I've never been too good at describing it to others. Those who are transgender tend to seek to become passable, through different methods. It would be considerate if everyone therefore decided to agree to use the pronouns the person asks for, and to use whichever name they decide to go by instead of the one given to them at birth. Of course there is nothing saying you have to, but it's generally considered a decent thing to use someone's chosen name, E.G. George Osbourne, not Gideon Osbourne (his birth name), but there is nothing stopping you calling him Gideon, or even calling say Ozzy Osbourne John, which is actually his legal name, but he goes by Ozzy.
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    (Original post by cranbrook_aspie)
    I know I'm a bit late to this, but I'd just like my tuppence.



    Firstly, you can't 'encourage' a mental illness. Secondly, even if transsexuality is a mental illness/syndrome/whatever - and, for the record, in my mind there's nothing wrong or negative about it being labelled as such - then surely the best way to go about 'treating' it is the way which is going to allow the person to live a normal life and flourish just like anyone else. That isn't trying to persuade them that their gender is the one associated with the reproductive organs they were born with, because that won't work and will simply leave the person more conflicted and mentally ****ed up than they were to start with. It's allowing them to live as the gender they identify with, respecting that, and eventually surgically modifying their body to fit.

    There's also an issue of liberty here for me. I have a libertarian streak and believe that this is a free country, so to a certain extent people should be able to live their lives how they want as long as they're within their means and are not harming anyone else or restricting anyone else's liberty. Therefore, if someone was assigned male at birth but wishes to live as a female, I strongly believe that that should be respected and that they should not face any discrimination or be made to feel uncomfortable because of it.

    And as for calling someone 'he' when they've clearly indicated a preference for 'she' - well, I'm sorry, but that's just downright rude.
    Hear, hear!


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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    I wasn't intending to be offensive, I was simply calling somebody by what I perceive to be their biological gender and providing my opinion of a group of people. In this instance I believe some people had an overreaction.

    I'd never intentionally offend somebody though, I consider resorting to personal attacks to be indicative of inferiority (intellectual in this instance).
    Well, I'll be very clear, even moreso than I have already. If you misgender me, when I've already told you how painful that is for me, that is intentionally offensive. Far more so to me than any of the other bigoted crap you see on TSR when it's on a regular basis, by a regular user of a community I for the most part love being a part of. If you can't bring yourself to acknowledge my gender, follow the lead of Life_peer and use a gender-neutral term. Otherwise, don't say you'd never intentionally offend someone, because that's precisely what you're doing.

    (Original post by Life_peer)
    My mistake, it really appears to be developing sooner. Perhaps I won't ever be able to properly understand the dissonance that transgender people experience but I think that rather similarly, transgender people that would be facing the choice couldn't fully realise its effects before undergoing the treatment.

    While I must say that being confronted with your personal experience leaves me more sympathetic to similar people and their requests, I still believe that the right answers to helping them live carefree lives lie elsewhere, though it's debatable what we should do until they're available.

    I think that both sides of the argument should chill out and make way for unbiased research. After all, I'd wager that even things like NHS-funded surgeries are probably just a drop in the sea compared to expenses on obesity treatment…

    By the way, my reluctance to use the ‘post-transformation’ pronouns is probably just a stubborn manifestation of my hostility towards what I perceive as LGBT lobby and their methods of operation, hence nothing personal. I think that they're damaging the cause more than they're helping it.
    From my own experience and those of other trans* people I know, I'm absolutely convinced it's from birth - it might manifest itself in different people at different times depending on how quickly they grasp the concept of gender roles and how they're bought up, but it's there from a very early age. I don't actually know of anybody who suddenly "developed" it at puberty or what have you.

    I'm more than happy to see unbiased research - I guess it's understandably not a priority, but it's sorely lacking.

    Going to have to disagree with you there. I'm not a massive fan of the lobby myself really - I don't like how ridiculously corporote it is, Barclays Bank at Pride reminiscing about the support gays and lesbians gave to the miner's strike realllllly took the biscuit this year in particular. But when you look at the progress we've made politically and culturally since the 80s it's clearly working for the most part even if we've sadly (in my eyes) lost our radical tradition. When we've gone from literally being illegal in the 60s, to just completely sidelined in the 80s, to today when LGB people at least have equal treatment from the state, legal protections to prevent discrimination, a stable and vast majority in terms of public support for their rights and increasing media and cultural representation, we can't really complain so much. (I think trans* rights are still some distance behind, but we'll get there )
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    (Original post by United1892)
    Do you think refusing to call saoirse a girl is going to cause anything other than offence.
    I think they overreacted.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    You don't have to enjoy something to do it.
    No but you wouldnt do it if you disliked it.
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    I think he overreacted.
    It's almost as if you want to provoke a reaction and cause more arguing
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    (Original post by Kay_Winters)
    It's almost as if you want to provoke a reaction and cause more arguing
    Not at all. I'm simply defending my narrative against a horde of people who disagree with me.
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    I think he overreacted.
    You know she doesn't like it thiugh, just stop.
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    From what I've seen you are a tory am I right? Would you go up to George Osbourne and say "Hello Gideon", I know it's not the same as using the pronouns someone has asked you to use, if you agree/believe in transgender/sexual at all or not, but wouldn't it be the decent thing to listen to their request and respect said request, moving away from politics and science, and just onto being respectful to a person's request? Especially when she has said it upsets her to be referred to with male pronouns
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    (Original post by Nigel Farage MEP)
    I wrote a bill about this in July: things would be easier if a preferred pronoun was based on a person's unchangeable, biological sex rather than a person's gender perception.
    No, it wouldn't, it would probably increase the already astonishing suicide rate in the trans* community, depress thousands of people, and give you a bruising human rights case.
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    (Original post by Nigel Farage MEP)
    I wrote a bill about this in July: things would be easier if a preferred pronoun was based on a person's unchangeable, biological sex rather than a person's gender perception.
    That would be changing the language, which is obviously not something a government can do.

    I mean, there's no need for gendered pronouns in the third person singular, and we manage absolutely fine without them in every other person - but the pronoun "it" has over the years, due to the preference for gendered pronouns for human beings, become associated with inanimate objects.
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    Bigots everywhere!

    I feel sorry for Labour having such disgusting views spread on their Q&A, so I shall ask a question.

    How do Labour feel about the abhorrent views shared, or at last hinted at, towards the LGBT community in this thread?
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    (Original post by United1892)
    No but you wouldnt do it if you disliked it.
    And there is a massive gap in the middle that covers the vast majority of things.
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    (Original post by JoeL1994)
    Bigots everywhere!

    I feel sorry for Labour having such disgusting views spread on their Q&A, so I shall ask a question.

    How do Labour feel about the abhorrent views shared, or at last hinted at, towards the LGBT community in this thread?
    The short answer is we oppose them completely and support the LGBT community resolutely against all forms of bigotry, ignorance and hatred. To quote our party constitution we wish to create a community "where we live together, freely, in a spirit of solidarity, tolerance and respect".
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    (Original post by Kay_Winters)
    Read the establishment, and now reading chavs, which is his first book yeah.

    As for Dennis Skinner, the Beast of Bolsover would be a fine avatar. And I'll certainly check out that Orwell book, great fan of Orwell.

    As for Stalin, he is an interesting polticial figure, not in that I agree with his ideas, but for that period in history in general, lots happening, and it was all so recent really
    I read a Trotsky book, very interesting indeed.

    Although I generally don't like reading books on historical figures specifically, two of my icons, Che Guevara and Michael Collins are definitely on my list.

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    (Original post by RayApparently)
    The short answer is we oppose them completely and support the LGBT community resolutely against all forms of bigotry, ignorance and hatred. To quote our party constitution we wish to create a community "where we live together, freely, in a spirit of solidarity, tolerance and respect".
    I expected nothing less.

    Thank you.
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    I just find some of the views towards the trans community kind of disgusting and abhorrent, but if people believe those views, as I believe mine, and I don't change their mind, then I can't stop them misgendering or deadnaming someone sadly. That's my view on it, maybe a bit of a hardline one, but the issue of trans rights matters a great deal to me
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    Seems I've been out done on wording, much more eloquent and I suppose political. But I agree with Ray
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    (Original post by Nigel Farage MEP)
    I wrote a bill about this in July: things would be easier if a preferred pronoun was based on a person's unchangeable, biological sex rather than a person's gender perception.
    Sadly Nigel, the fact that transgenderism exists indicates that a simple B/G classification isn't satisfactory.

    I recall a transgender pre-op being forcibly housed in the male wing while looking like a woman, based on your logic.

    As Saoirse says, the rate of self harming would go up.

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