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    (Original post by Lime-man)
    It is when the reasons for her wanting to leave the UK are incredibly similar to the reasons for leaving the EU
    I don't think they are. You can support one Union and not the other. Perhaps they prefer what Europe offers then compared to the EU. Whether or not in the the EU we will be a sovereign nation, that's what they want too. They are not a sovereign nation in the Uk but would be in the the EU/
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    Considering a lot of the Left prefer the (albeit limited in use) EU govt to a Tory one, hardly surprising that Sturgeon would roll with that.

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    (Original post by meenu89)
    Izzard did all the attacking, unless I was listening to a different program....




    At one point I thought he blamed the Tory Government for the problems in Greece....
    He might have, he seemed to blame everything on the recession and bankers which isn't always a good move. But his point that leaving the EU because of public services is scapegoating the EU for the policy of austerity in the UK I thought was a very good point.
    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    He's a liability to remain, he has no substantial arguments, Hannan completely demolished him in Reading

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    Agreed, like I said his veiws are similar to mine but he isn't good at expressing himself well in a debate unfortunately.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Cameron talked of no other event having the same "expert" consensus we would have had the Euro and ERM.
    I find this argument to be an odd position to take. Isaac Newton believed in Alchemy and the second coming of Jesus Christ yet we don't disregard his works on the laws of motion and gravity. It's very much a continuum fallacy (similar to how if scientists have made the wrong conclusions before, we should never trust scientists) which attacks the messenger and not the message. We see plenty of critique of the people who publish the analysis from the Leave campaigns but little critique of the analysis itself.
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    (Original post by The Financier)
    I find this argument to be an odd position to take. Isaac Newton believed in Alchemy and the second coming of Jesus Christ yet we don't disregard his works on the laws of motion and gravity. It's very much a continuum fallacy (similar to how if scientists have made the wrong conclusions before, we should never trust scientists) which attacks the messenger and not the message. We see plenty of critique of the people who publish the analysis from the Leave campaigns but little critique of the analysis itself.
    The distinction though has to be made between economics and actual scientists given that even the economists have no idea what they're going on about, but the scientist can provide strong evidence.

    The other thing that has to be considered is that when somebody consistently argues that if we don't go down a certain path we will all be damned and is consistently wrong does that not suggest hat THEY want us to go down the path and say whatever it takes to try to go down there.

    It was also interesting to read yesterday that the survey they hot this "consensus" from had about 3000 people decline to answer, I wonder, was "god knows, things will probably be similar" not an option to try to filter out anybody who wasn't a loon?

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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    The distinction though has to be made between economics and actual scientists given that even the economists have no idea what they're going on about, but the scientist can provide strong evidence.

    The other thing that has to be considered is that when somebody consistently argues that if we don't go down a certain path we will all be damned and is consistently wrong does that not suggest hat THEY want us to go down the path and say whatever it takes to try to go down there.

    It was also interesting to read yesterday that the survey they hot this "consensus" from had about 3000 people decline to answer, I wonder, was "god knows, things will probably be similar" not an option to try to filter out anybody who wasn't a loon?

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    Again, none of this is actually a criticism of the methodology used in the findings (just a blanket statement that they don't know what they're doing) but of the profession itself. It's all well and good believing that their analysis is wrong but the argument being proposed against the consensus is not on how they arrived at their conclusions, but that they are inherently always wrong which is unsubstantiated. If I do agree with the existence of the phenomenon of Gravity and that Newton's laws of motion are correct, do I then agree with the possibility of Alchemy given the scientific process in which Newton conducted his research on Gravity? How people arrived at the conclusion that joining the Euro would be a good thing is a completely different process to how they've arrived at the consequences of Brexit and cannot be compared in that manner. It may very well be the case that how they arrived at their conclusions is wrong, but this hasn't been tackled formally but presumed.

    No-one argues using the argument "I'm right because you're wrong". We argue with "You're wrong because...".
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    The thing I hate most about this referendum is that I can't effectively state my veiws for fear of making people more likely to brexit. Because I know if I talk about my belief that the EU should become a single country, that we shouldn't limit immigration and that no one has a God given right to live in the uk, being an arbitrary country occupying an arbitrary peice of land.

    Because I know all those veiws, although perfectly reasonable, are totally against the mainstream and would scare more people into voting to leave when they really shouldn't.
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    (Original post by Aph)
    The thing I hate most about this referendum is that I can't effectively state my veiws for fear of making people more likely to brexit. Because I know if I talk about my belief that the EU should become a single country, that we shouldn't limit immigration and that no one has a God given right to live in the uk, being an arbitrary country occupying an arbitrary peice of land.

    Because I know all those veiws, although perfectly reasonable, are totally against the mainstream and would scare more people into voting to leave when they really shouldn't.
    To be honest, they're far from reasonable - they're unrealistic (we don't have an unlimited amount of space to house everyone effectively and to the right standard) and, to me at least, rather offensive in how unpatriotic you are. I respect your right to hold those views and would never stop you saying them, but I do find them offensive.
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    (Original post by Aph)
    The thing I hate most about this referendum is that I can't effectively state my veiws for fear of making people more likely to brexit. Because I know if I talk about my belief that the EU should become a single country, that we shouldn't limit immigration and that no one has a God given right to live in the uk, being an arbitrary country occupying an arbitrary peice of land.

    Because I know all those veiws, although perfectly reasonable, are totally against the mainstream and would scare more people into voting to leave when they really shouldn't.
    Sounds like it's a crap argument then
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    York has voted to remain in the NUS after the vote was extended without extension, funnily enough it handed the campaign to remain in the NUS about 300 votes net with serial cheating from the remain campaign.
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    Oh God, did I just hear IZzard say that the subprime mortgage crisis was a capitalist conspiracy and the Tory government of the day introduced austerity...
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Oh God, did I just hear IZzard say that the subprime mortgage crisis was a capitalist conspiracy and the Tory government of the day introduced austerity...
    It made me cringe so hard that my face almost fell off.

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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    York has voted to remain in the NUS after the vote was extended without extension, funnily enough it handed the campaign to remain in the NUS about 300 votes net with serial cheating from the remain campaign.
    http://www.su.nottingham.ac.uk/news/...RENDUM-UPDATE/

    The delay in Nottingham seems odd as well.
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    (Original post by Lime-man)
    It made me cringe so hard that my face almost fell off.

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    I don't think I've ever wanted to take him behind the chemical shed and shoot him more than listening to that tripe.
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    (Original post by toronto353)
    To be honest, they're far from reasonable - they're unrealistic (we don't have an unlimited amount of space to house everyone effectively and to the right standard) and, to me at least, rather offensive in how unpatriotic you are. I respect your right to hold those views and would never stop you saying them, but I do find them offensive.
    I know we don't have the space but at the same time no one has more of a right to live in the uk than anyone else.
    See you also know how annoying I find patriotism, like I just don't understand how anyone can love a country which is a totally arbitrary idea, most of the people have nothing to do with you and how they can be proud of the achievements of others which have nothing to do with them at all. You know I don't meen to offend you when I say this, but to me most of the time it would seem that patriotism is something which people use to feel good about themselves instead of actually doing something worthwhile. You obviously aren't included in that seeing as you are studying a PhD and are doing well in life but I would say that that is generally true most of the time which is why I'm baffled why you are patriotic.
    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Sounds like it's a crap argument then
    It really.
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    I've just been watching some of last night's Question Time on iPlayer and I have to say that Eddie Izzard is really coming across as a shouty **** who doesn't know what he's talking about. I was impressed by Allison Pearson and Farage seems to have done quite well, but the others seem relatively mediocre.
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    (Original post by cranbrook_aspie)
    I've just been watching some of last night's Question Time on iPlayer and I have to say that Eddie Izzard is really coming across as a shouty **** who doesn't know what he's talking about. I was impressed by Allison Pearson and Farage seems to have done quite well, but the others seem relatively mediocre.
    I only watched half of it but I thought Chris Grayling actually came across quite well
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    (Original post by PetrosAC)
    I only watched half of it but I thought Chris Grayling actually came across quite well
    He didn't handle the "well over half of immigration is from out of the EU so why don't you cut that" question well at all.
    (Original post by cranbrook_aspie)
    I've just been watching some of last night's Question Time on iPlayer and I have to say that Eddie Izzard is really coming across as a shouty **** who doesn't know what he's talking about. I was impressed by Allison Pearson and Farage seems to have done quite well, but the others seem relatively mediocre.
    It was only Hilary and Andrew I really liked. I fear that this debate, more than just spilting the Tories, is also going to split the country, maybe ireprably and no result will be great.
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    (Original post by Aph)
    He didn't handle the "well over half of immigration is from out of the EU so why don't you cut that" question well at all.

    It was only Hilary and Andrew I really liked. I fear that this debate, more than just spilting the Tories, is also going to split the country, maybe ireprably and no result will be great.
    Well, populations tend to split when asked to vote, if not I would question the results...
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    (Original post by PetrosAC)
    I only watched half of it but I thought Chris Grayling actually came across quite well
    He seemed very negative to me and didn't seem to take the opportunities he was given to actually present a positive case for Leave.


    (Original post by Aph)
    He didn't handle the "well over half of immigration is from out of the EU so why don't you cut that" question well at all.

    It was only Hilary and Andrew I really liked. I fear that this debate, more than just spilting the Tories, is also going to split the country, maybe ireprably and no result will be great.
    That's the fault of both campaigns tbh. There's been much too much scaremongering in this debate and not enough actual reasoned debate of the issues.
 
 
 
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