(Original post by n00)
Really, it's right there in that thread.
The type of books that talk about Israel carrying out Gods work?
Ah well it's a good job i don't follow a backward ideology then cos that sounds really scary.
Did not say you do but maybe you do? However the ones that do are facing the correct retribution.
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The Israel/Palestine Conflict Mk. IV watch
- 07-08-2014 12:48
- 07-08-2014 12:52
- 07-08-2014 12:59
Anyone with a right mind would disagree with what Israel is doing. There's no justification in my opinion.
- 07-08-2014 13:02
- 07-08-2014 13:05
If Israel were anything like Nazi Germany and Israel's actions anything like the Holocaust, there would not be a single Palestinian left.
- 07-08-2014 13:11
- 07-08-2014 13:29
Where do you people get your news from and what websites do you look at in reference to this conflict?
(Original post by mxcvii)
- 07-08-2014 13:34
From what I'm aware of this genocide that started about a month ago started because of the 3 Israelies that were kidnapped and murdered. Israel's government blamed Hamas but a couple of days ago I read in an article that Hamas had nothing to do with the kidnapping and murders of the 3 teens. It was a random crime that was committed by some random Palestinian. At the same time when they were killed Israel had no evidence that Hamas killed those 3 teens.
So what Israel decides to do is bomb the Palestine. Now before I go on any further when the twin towers were bombed it was labelled as a "terrorist act". What the Israelies are doing right now is no different, they are terrorist, in fact Israel has been labelled as a terrorist state a few times now by some politicians. Also don't justify the bombings as "Self Defence" because Israel has killed a dozen times more than than Hamas has.
Let's look at the figures Israel has killed over 1700+ people mostly civilians, a few thousands injured. Now let's look at how many Israelies have died. To be exact 66 Israelies have died and apparently 60 were soldiers.
All the Israel has been doing is blaming Hamas for firing rockets, which really didn't kill a no where near as many as Israel soldiers and air missiles have.
At this point who is "Killing" and who is "Defending . At the end of the day no-one can deny the fact that it's a one way slaughter, at this point can you even blame Hamas for firing rockets that won't do any damage anyway.
Thats what I think, feel free to comment, sorry for my bad English.
Its mass murder of Gaza's civillians! Gaza doesn't even have a proper army and are trapped inside their own country so can't escape ANYWHERE, the Israeli's KNOW this and are blaming their attacks on the fact that they are telling the Palestinians to flee and escape so they can get away with the murder! The media is mainly Americanized so is extremely biased, no wonder people think its Palestine's fault I hope Palestine will be free, what is going on right now is absolutely disgusting!! We are all human, and what the Israelis are doing is not human at all. The Palestinians have only killed like literally 34 israeli soldiers in defence compared to the thousands killed by Israel.
WE NEED TO RAISE AWARENESS OF THE TRUTH THAT IS GOING ON, WHICH IS THAT THIS IS THE MASS GENOCIDE OF GAZA'S INNOCENT PEOPLE!
- 07-08-2014 15:06
The Zionists obey the Torah.
The Zionists, for example, are possibly not impressed that Jesus Christ did not fight the Romans in order to rescue his nation of Israel from their enemies (the Romans at that time).
You say God allowed genocide in the OT.
You see the link to the current Zionists itching for power in Israel?
Through Yeshua, God gives a new covenant, one based on love.
You understand why I stand for Hamas even though they are broken, ill-disciplined and cannot help themselves?
. Personally, I stand for all the people in the Middle East: both the Palestinians and the people of Israel. What they need is to love each other and respect each other in spite of their differences. Killing or trying to kill each other is not what they need.
(Original post by RoyalBlue7)
- 07-08-2014 15:15
So if you can tolerate "genocides" of the OT why can't you tolerate the lesser Jihad against oppression and Jihad for conquest in a righteous way as in the Quran?
I do not tolerate the genocides of the OT. Rather, I see them as a state of the immaturity of the people of the past.
Yeshua (Jesus Christ) taught people to love their enemies (Matthew 5:44; Luke 6:27-37), which is a huge step to maturity in people. The Qur'an and Muhammad's followers (Jihadists) are after Jesus Christ's teachings and are actually regressing into immaturity, same as the Crusaders after them. Both Muhammad and the Crusaders disobeyed Jesus Christ's teachings to love their enemies. This shows marked immaturity and regression, instead of maturity and progression.
Because Jesus change the rules?
Now can't you see the hypocrisy. If you lived as a follower of Moses won't you be going about preaching genocide? Deny it?
Since I am not a follower of Moses, who lived a long time ago in a time when people did not know as much as they know today, it is important for me to concentrate on the present and on who I do follow: Jesus Christ.
(Original post by RoyalBlue7)
- 07-08-2014 15:25
No that's a dangerous thing to say. What you're saying is people should have been evolved and civilized to make love triumph over violence. That was what Inzamam99 pponyrd out. Now do you agree? That love can beat violence only when the people are civilised enough?
You know, without violence against Hitler the Jews would have been massacred to a greater degree, and he would still be in power.
Do you deny that violence is always unacceptable in today's world? That through love etc the Nazis would have been won over?
In today's world too there are barbarians worse or equal to the Pharaoh of Moses. You'll be the one immature to deny that.
Yes there are barbarians worse or equal to Pharaoh of Moses. By the way, Moses did not use violence against Pharoah. Rather, he simply trusted in God and did what God told him to do. God didn't tell the Children of Israel to fight Pharoah. Rather, God fought Pharoah through the plagues and also through the waters of the Red Sea drowning his warriors.
- 07-08-2014 15:37
It's not 'defensive' in any meaningful sense, but it also doesn't really constitute genocide.
Unlike the West Bank, Israel has given up any hopes of colonising Gaza. Instead they've opted to close it off as much as they can, and rain death and destruction on it when it becomes too much of a nuisance. On the other hand, anything too extreme risks angering the surrounding Arab states, which may put a strain on US-Israel relations.
(Original post by UniOfLife)
- 07-08-2014 15:42
Please read the following statement carefully:
Every Jew wishes that the Nazi Holocaust had been even remotely like Israel's "genocide" of the Palestinians.
I imagine that the victims of the Rwanda genocide also wish that their genocide had been like that of the Palestinians.
For those not getting it. The point is that Israel's conflict with the Palestinians has claimed the lives of 22,000 on both sides since 1948. If that is a "genocide" then we need a new word for what happened in the Holocaust and Rwanda (among other places).
The definition of genocide is clear enough, so with the requisite evidence, it is in fact genocide, notwithstanding the lower numbers involved.
(Original post by RoyalBlue7)
- 07-08-2014 15:43
Thank you! So far I've learnt that
1. Christians even hardcore ones like you cannot understand why God allowed genocide in the OT
2. That love that Jesus taught was delayed so that people could be civilized enough. That your opinion why violence was used to solve conflicts in the past was because people was not evolved to understand love. I don't know if you believe that there are barbarians of that type after Jesus like Hitler?
Hence they show they are not "civilized" but rather resort to immature violence and succumb to hatred, which is the opposite of love.
3.That people like you are ignorant in their support of Israel who are Jews that believe in a scripture that allows genocide.
That the Koran is better, much much better.
2:190 (Y. Ali) Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.
2:191 (Y. Ali) And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.
2:193 (Y. Ali) And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah. but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.
2:216 (Y. Ali) Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.
2:244 (Y. Ali) Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things.
3:167 (Y. Ali) And the Hypocrites also. These were told: "Come, fight in the way of Allah, or (at least) drive (The foe from your city)." They said: "Had we known how to fight, we should certainly have followed you." They were that day nearer to Unbelief than to Faith, saying with their lips what was not in their hearts but Allah hath full knowledge of all they conceal.
3:168 (Y. Ali) (They are) the ones that say, (of their brethren slain), while they themselves sit (at ease): "If only they had listened to us they would not have been slain." Say: "Avert death from your own selves, if ye speak the truth."
3:169 (Y. Ali) Think not of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead. Nay, they live, finding their sustenance in the presence of their Lord;
3:170 (Y. Ali) They rejoice in the bounty provided by Allah. And with regard to those left behind, who have not yet joined them (in their bliss), the (Martyrs) glory in the fact that on them is no fear, nor have they (cause to) grieve.
4:74 (Y. Ali) Let those fight in the cause of Allah Who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fighteth in the cause of Allah,- whether he is slain or gets victory - Soon shall We give him a reward of great (value).
4:75 (Y. Ali) And why should ye not fight in the cause of Allah and of those who, being weak, are ill-treated (and oppressed)?- Men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will protect; and raise for us from thee one who will help!"
4:76 (Y. Ali) Those who believe fight in the cause of Allah, and those who reject Faith Fight in the cause of Evil: So fight ye against the friends of Satan: feeble indeed is the cunning of Satan.
4:77 (Y. Ali) Hast thou not turned Thy vision to those who were told to hold back their hands (from fight) but establish regular prayers and spend in regular charity? When (at length) the order for fighting was issued to them, behold! a section of them feared men as - or even more than - they should have feared Allah. They said: "Our Lord! Why hast Thou ordered us to fight? Wouldst Thou not Grant us respite to our (natural) term, near (enough)?" Say: "Short is the enjoyment of this world: the Hereafter is the best for those who do right: Never will ye be dealt with unjustly in the very least!
4:84 (Y. Ali) Then fight in Allah's cause - Thou art held responsible only for thyself - and rouse the believers. It may be that Allah will restrain the fury of the Unbelievers; for Allah is the strongest in might and in punishment.
4:89 (Y. Ali) They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-
4:95 (Y. Ali) Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) Hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight Hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward,-
8:38 (Y. Ali) Say to the Unbelievers, if (now) they desist (from Unbelief), their past would be forgiven them; but if they persist, the punishment of those before them is already (a matter of warning for them).
8:39 (Y. Ali) And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily Allah doth see all that they do.
8:65 (Y. Ali) O Messenger. rouse the Believers to the fight. If there are twenty amongst you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, they will vanquish a thousand of the Unbelievers: for these are a people without understanding.
8:66 (Y. Ali) For the present, Allah hath lightened your (task), for He knoweth that there is a weak spot in you: But (even so), if there are a hundred of you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred, and if a thousand, they will vanquish two thousand, with the leave of Allah. for Allah is with those who patiently persevere.
8:67 (Y. Ali) It is not fitting for an apostle that he should have prisoners of war until he hath thoroughly subdued the land. Ye look for the temporal goods of this world; but Allah looketh to the Hereafter: And Allah is Exalted in might, Wise.
8:68 (Y. Ali) Had it not been for a previous ordainment from Allah, a severe penalty would have reached you for the (ransom) that ye took.
8:69 (Y. Ali) But (now) enjoy what ye took in war, lawful and good: but fear Allah. for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
8:70 (Y. Ali) O Messenger. say to those who are captives in your hands: "If Allah findeth any good in your hearts, He will give you something better than what has been taken from you, and He will forgive you: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful."
8:71 (Y. Ali) But if they have treacherous designs against thee, (O Messenger.), they have already been in treason against Allah, and so hath He given (thee) power over them. And Allah so He Who hath (full) knowledge and wisdom.
8:72 (Y. Ali) Those who believed, and adopted exile, and fought for the Faith, with their property and their persons, in the cause of Allah, as well as those who gave (them) asylum and aid,- these are (all) friends and protectors, one of another. As to those who believed but came not into exile, ye owe no duty of protection to them until they come into exile; but if they seek your aid in religion, it is your duty to help them, except against a people with whom ye have a treaty of mutual alliance. And (remember) Allah seeth all that ye do.
8:73 (Y. Ali) The Unbelievers are protectors, one of another: Unless ye do this, (protect each other), there would be tumult and oppression on earth, and great mischief.
8:74 (Y. Ali) Those who believe, and adopt exile, and fight for the Faith, in the cause of Allah as well as those who give (them) asylum and aid,- these are (all) in very truth the Believers: for them is the forgiveness of sins and a provision most generous.
8:75 (Y. Ali) And those who accept Faith subsequently, and adopt exile, and fight for the Faith in your company,- they are of you. But kindred by blood have prior rights against each other in the Book of Allah. Verily Allah is well-acquainted with all things.
9:5 (Y. Ali) But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
9:13 (Y. Ali) Will ye not fight people who violated their oaths, plotted to expel the Messenger, and took the aggressive by being the first (to assault) you? Do ye fear them? Nay, it is Allah Whom ye should more justly fear, if ye believe!
9:14 (Y. Ali) Fight them, and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you (to victory) over them, heal the breasts of Believers,
9:29 (Y. Ali) Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
9:30 (Y. Ali) The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!
9:44 (Y. Ali) Those who believe in Allah and the Last Day ask thee for no exemption from fighting with their goods and persons. And Allah knoweth well those who do their duty.
9:45 (Y. Ali) Only those ask thee for exemption who believe not in Allah and the Last Day, and whose hearts are in doubt, so that they are tossed in their doubts to and fro.
9:81 (Y. Ali) Those who were left behind (in the Tabuk expedition) rejoiced in their inaction behind the back of the Messenger of Allah. they hated to strive and fight, with their goods and their persons, in the cause of Allah. they said, "Go not forth in the heat." Say, "The fire of Hell is fiercer in heat." If only they could understand!
9:82 (Y. Ali) Let them laugh a little: much will they weep: a recompense for the (evil) that they do.
9:83 (Y. Ali) If, then, Allah bring thee back to any of them, and they ask thy permission to come out (with thee), say: "Never shall ye come out with me, nor fight an enemy with me: for ye preferred to sit inactive on the first occasion: Then sit ye (now) with those who lag behind."
9:86 (Y. Ali) When a Sura comes down, enjoining them to believe in Allah and to strive and fight along with His Messenger, those with wealth and influence among them ask thee for exemption, and say: "Leave us (behind): we would be with those who sit (at home)."
9:87 (Y. Ali) They prefer to be with (the women), who remain behind (at home): their hearts are sealed and so they understand not.
9:88 (Y. Ali) But the Messenger, and those who believe with him, strive and fight with their wealth and their persons: for them are (all) good things: and it is they who will prosper.
9:123 (Y. Ali) O ye who believe! fight the unbelievers who gird you about, and let them find firmness in you: and know that Allah is with those who fear Him.
33:26 (Y. Ali) And those of the People of the Book who aided them - Allah did take them down from their strongholds and cast terror into their hearts. (So that) some ye slew, and some ye made prisoners.
33:27 (Y. Ali) And He made you heirs of their lands, their houses, and their goods, and of a land which ye had not frequented (before). And Allah has power over all things.
47:4 (Y. Ali) Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost.
47:20 (Y. Ali) Those who believe say, "Why is not a sura sent down (for us)?" But when a sura of basic or categorical meaning is revealed, and fighting is mentioned therein, thou wilt see those in whose hearts is a disease looking at thee with a look of one in swoon at the approach of death. But more fitting for them-
48:15 (Y. Ali) Those who lagged behind (will say), when ye (are free to) march and take booty (in war): "Permit us to follow you." They wish to change Allah's decree: Say: "Not thus will ye follow us: Allah has already declared (this) beforehand": then they will say, "But ye are jealous of us." Nay, but little do they understand (such things).
48:16 (Y. Ali) Say to the desert Arabs who lagged behind: "Ye shall be summoned (to fight) against a people given to vehement war: then shall ye fight, or they shall submit. Then if ye show obedience, Allah will grant you a goodly reward, but if ye turn back as ye did before, He will punish you with a grievous Penalty."
48:17 (Y. Ali) No blame is there on the blind, nor is there blame on the lame, nor on one ill (if he joins not the war): But he that obeys Allah and his Messenger,- ((Allah)) will admit him to Gardens beneath which rivers flow; and he who turns back, ((Allah)) will punish him with a grievous Penalty.
59:2 (Y. Ali) It is He Who got out the Unbelievers among the People of the Book from their homes at the first gathering (of the forces). Little did ye think that they would get out: And they thought that their fortresses would defend them from Allah. But the (Wrath of) Allah came to them from quarters from which they little expected (it), and cast terror into their hearts, so that they destroyed their dwellings by their own hands and the hands of the Believers, take warning, then, O ye with eyes (to see)!
59:3 (Y. Ali) And had it not been that Allah had decreed banishment for them, He would certainly have punished them in this world: And in the Hereafter they shall (certainly) have the Punishment of the Fire.
59:4 (Y. Ali) That is because they resisted Allah and His Messenger. and if any one resists Allah, verily Allah is severe in Punishment.
61:4 (Y. Ali) Truly Allah loves those who fight in His Cause in battle array, as if they were a solid cemented structure.
4. That Christians are hypocrites. Sorry, but that should be said. Something I reconfirmed.
However, God is Judge. God looks at each person's heart and sees if that person truly loves Him and truly loves other people (Matthew 22:39). Yeshua/Jesus Christ, who will return as King someday, commands his followers to love their enemies (Matthew 5:44; Luke 6;27-37). Like Muhammad, sadly the Crusaders did not love their enemies, and as a result, thousands of people including Muslims, other Christians and Jewish people were killed. On Judgement Day, they will be held accountable. You and I will also be held accountable for our thoughts, words and actions.
(Original post by Opts)
- 07-08-2014 15:44
Exactly, genocide implies systematic and intentional mass murder. This is a case of high (disproportionate) levels of collateral that are inevitable with the population density of Gaza.
There's no level of specificity as to the weapons being used, and the areas that they are being used.
Because they cannot target combatants, without killing non-combatants to a disproportionate degree then its genocide and a war crime.
- 07-08-2014 15:45
I suggest people start reading about international criminal law, because you don't have a clue about the reality of the legal position of Israel.
- 07-08-2014 15:48
Israelis aren't defending are you kidding me it's just a reason to bomb Gaza because they want to overtake the land and for other Religion related purposes. If you think that then you are tapped in the head!
- 07-08-2014 15:52
I see more genocide in the UK of the English if I'm honest.
- 07-08-2014 15:53
(Original post by tsr1269)
- 07-08-2014 15:54
With all due respect, MLK Jr. had it different.
Segregation =/= Occupation.
How can you "become friends" with your jailer who is intent on depriving you of your most basic needs such as food, shelter and life?
In the last 25 years, tell me of a protest (with or without love) which has actually achieved something?
Refer to the question above.
Now, if homosexuals had gone around using violence against those who do not believe in homosexual marriage, do you think some states would be allowing same sex marriage? I don't think so.
You said "Rockets kill". I'm telling you that they have 0.07722% of killing you.
You are more at risk from cancer than a rocket.
You are more at risk from a stroke than a rocker.
The "international community" put them in this situation in the first place.