The Commons Bar Mk IX - MHoC Chat Thread Watch

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Birkenhead
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#501
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#501
(Original post by RayApparently)
When someone makes an assertion that's wrong in both premise and conclusion its only right to point it out. I pointed out the former and you pointed out the latter. If you really care about the fallacy, bring it up with your party member.
You were wrong in what you said about the 'premise' of Petros' post. I have no idea what 'conclusion' you're referring to though the inclusion of that word does make the sentence seem more complete.

Petros said something about Miliband not being working class.

You asked him whether he knew Miliband went to a comprehensive school, as if to imply that impacted on his class.

I pointed out that it was an excellent comprehensive in Hampstead, and that Miliband was born into a Primrose Hill based affluent family easily in the upper middle class, and that his school didn't detract from this. I also said that it doesn't matter what class someone is born into.

At this stage all you seem to be saying in so many words is that 'you're right', and that I would be better to direct my comments to Petros despite how clear it is that they are responses to what you have said.

Debate in this place is too often like getting blood from a stone, honestly!
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PetrosAC
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#502
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#502
(Original post by Aph)
Aye, that is why I said if but it is accurate. And the libs would take one from UKIP and the socialists might get 3; 2 being lab, 1 being green.
As I've said before though, we cannot second guess the electorate. Though the RL poll on TSR does point towards a Labour-led coalition

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RayApparently
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#503
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(Original post by Birkenhead)
You were wrong in what you said about the 'premise' of Petros' post.

Petros said something about Miliband not being working class.

You asked him whether he knew Miliband went to a comprehensive school, as if to imply that impacted on his class.

I pointed out that it was an excellent comprehensive in Hampstead, and that Miliband was born into a Primrose Hill based affluent family easily in the upper middle class, and that his school didn't detract from this. I also said that it doesn't matter what class someone is born into.

At this stage all you seem to be saying in so many words is that 'you're right', and that I would be better to direct my comments to Petros despite how clear it is that they are responses to what you have said.

Debate in this place is too often like getting blood from a stone, honestly!
I was comparing Miliband to Clegg. Thereby showing the flaw in Petros' argument.


The debate is only like getting blood from a stone because your trying to start an argument for no reason.
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PetrosAC
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#504
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#504
(Original post by RayApparently)
I was comparing Miliband to Clegg. Thereby showing the flaw in Petros' argument.


The debate is only like getting blood from a stone because your trying to start an argument for no reason.
In all fairness, I did not mention anything about Clegg's class, just that my mum liked him.

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Aph
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#505
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#505
(Original post by PetrosAC)
As I've said before though, we cannot second guess the electorate. Though the RL poll on TSR does point towards a Labour-led coalition

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didnt Ray say that???

but yes it does.
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RayApparently
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#506
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#506
(Original post by PetrosAC)
In all fairness, I did not mention anything about Clegg's class, just that my mum liked him.

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I recall you suggesting that the Lib Dems were the party of the working class now by pointing at the Labour Leader - the most left-wing one in years. Thereby suggesting that you felt that Clegg, one of the more right-wing Liberal leaders was a better defender of the working class. You're assessment of Miliband can't have been his policies (as I've said he's more left-wing than Labour have been in years) and so I naturally assumed you were attacking him personally i.e. his origins. Therefore I pointed out that his origins are far more in tune with those of ordinary people than Clegg's. This isn;t the same as saying that either of them are actually working class. They're not, and they don't need to be.


Everyone happy now?
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PetrosAC
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#507
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#507
(Original post by Aph)
didnt Ray say that???

but yes it does.
We both said it. Go back a few pages

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PetrosAC
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#508
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#508
(Original post by RayApparently)
I recall you suggesting that the Lib Dems were the party of the working class now by pointing at the Labour Leader - the most left-wing one in years. Thereby suggesting that you felt that Clegg, one of the more right-wing Liberal leaders was a better defender of the working class. You're assessment of Miliband can't have been his policies (as I've said he's more left-wing than Labour have been in years) and so I naturally assumed you were attacking him personally i.e. his origins. Therefore I pointed out that his origins are far more in tune with those of ordinary people than Clegg's. This isn;t the same as saying that either of them are actually working class. They're not, and they don't need to be.


Everyone happy now?
Almost

I'm sorry if it came across that I thought Clegg is a defender of the working class, but that isn't the case.

Okay, now I'm good

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RayApparently
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#509
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#509
(Original post by PetrosAC)
Almost

I'm sorry if it came across that I thought Clegg is a defender of the working class, but that isn't the case.

Okay, now I'm good
Lol, I'm glad that's sorted.
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PetrosAC
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#510
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#510
(Original post by PetrosAC)
I thought so too!

My mum was like "Labour's working class right?" so I just pointed at Miliband and said "not anymore". Then I had to explain everyone's shift to the centre ground.

She actually liked Nick Clegg. I think those that don't read much too much in politics would like him as he comes across well and the "borrow less/cut less" as well as the NHS funding would sway votes for him. It's a shame for him and The Lib Dems that he'll be remembered as a man that broke a promise.

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Just for reference

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Birkenhead
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#511
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#511
(Original post by RayApparently)
I recall you suggesting that the Lib Dems were the party of the working class now by pointing at the Labour Leader - the most left-wing one in years. Thereby suggesting that you felt that Clegg, one of the more right-wing Liberal leaders was a better defender of the working class. You're assessment of Miliband can't have been his policies (as I've said he's more left-wing than Labour have been in years) and so I naturally assumed you were attacking him personally i.e. his origins. Therefore I pointed out that his origins are far more in tune with those of ordinary people than Clegg's. This isn;t the same as saying that either of them are actually working class. They're not, and they don't need to be.


Everyone happy now?
The point that you've not been responding to still stands, namely that Ed Miliband is not 'far more in tune' with the origins of ordinary people. I mean it's just nonsense, for the reasons I have already given. Haverstock comprehensive was known as the 'Eton for the Left'. His family was based in Primrose Hill and owned several properties, and mingled regularly with prominent Left wing politicians and thinkers. He only went to a comp at all because his father wanted to give the impression that he even slightly practised what he preached politically. The common ground you've identified between Miliband and the ordinary person is a farce.
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RayApparently
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#512
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#512
(Original post by Birkenhead)
The point that you've not been responding to still stands, namely that Ed Miliband is not 'far more in tune' with the origins of ordinary people. I mean it's just nonsense, for the reasons I have already given. Haverstock comprehensive was known as the 'Eton for the Left'. His family was based in Primrose Hill and owned several properties, and mingled regularly with prominent Left wing politicians and thinkers. He only went to a comp at all because his father wanted to give the impression that he even slightly practised what he preached politically. The common ground you've identified between Miliband and the ordinary person is a farce.
But its not Eton is it. Ed is no more non-working class than the leader's of the main parties.
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PetrosAC
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#513
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#513
(Original post by RayApparently)
But its not Eton is it. Ed is no more non-working class than the leader's of the main parties.
The point is, none of them are anywhere near working class and if you are suggesting Ed is close because he went to a comprehensive, that's ridiculous.

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RayApparently
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#514
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(Original post by PetrosAC)
The point is, none of them are anywhere near working class and if you are suggesting Ed is close because he went to a comprehensive, that's ridiculous.
You suggested Labour wasn't working class because of him, that's stupid.
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PetrosAC
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#515
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#515
(Original post by RayApparently)
You suggested Labour wasn't working class because of him, that's stupid.
I never said it was solely because of him. Are you seriously suggesting Labour are still working class?

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RayApparently
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#516
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#516
(Original post by PetrosAC)
I never said it was solely because of him. Are you seriously suggesting Labour are still working class?
Yes.
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PetrosAC
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#517
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(Original post by RayApparently)
Yes.
The back benchers, okay I'll concede that. Most of them are loyal to their constituents.

But the Shadow Ministers are no where near. Admitedly, they're the closest out of the main parties, but they're no longer a party of the working class imo.



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tehFrance
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#518
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#518
Ed isn't working class, he's a ****ing millionaire... If being a millionaire is working class then my mother was right all along, my family is working class

Labour is full of wealthy cocks in command, it's not a party for the poor, it's a party for the guilty.
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Rakas21
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#519
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#519
Labour's claim to being working class is only being willing to increase welfare and end zero hour contracts, other than that they are a decidedly middle class party, just less so than the Tories although even then, the Tories do want lower taxes for the working poor.
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RayApparently
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#520
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#520
(Original post by PetrosAC)
The back benchers, okay I'll concede that. Most of them are loyal to their constituents.

But the Shadow Ministers are no where near. Admitedly, they're the closest out of the main parties, but they're no longer a party of the working class imo.
I thought we were judging politicians by policy and not by the class of individual MPs :/
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